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I was tickled by this statement: "Those who might check their phone’s map when lost are instead being encouraged to ask for directions." Having Interrailed ac

I was tickled by this statement: "Those who might check their phone’s map when lost are instead being encouraged to ask for directions." Having Interrailed across northern Europe and travelled within a variety of cities without an internet-connected phone, I am now confident in declaring that the average local is terrible at giving directions! Attempt to ask how to get to the nearest metro station or bus stop, for instance, and each of the friendly residents you ask will direct you in an entirely different direction. Of course, you'll also get your fair share of unsolicited travel advice: in Brussels, I believe I have now heard more instructions for effective fare-dodging than I have actual directions! As a result of the typical denizen's questionable geography knowledge, I've now made sure I have a good offline map before embarking on any journey. If I know approximately which railway or bus lines I'll need to use, I'll download timetables for them as well. Of course, I could print out a dozen maps in advance - there's nothing inherently electronic about a map - but spurning maps entirely and asking for directions just won't cut the mustard!

telesilla 3y ago
I was at a very nice hotel recently in the countryside where car sharing apps don't work and the trains in that country are notorious for not arriving. I needed to get a train to a near town, a very very well known place and it was at least a 3-connection trip. The young person at the desk said, oh I don't take public transport (I guess they cycle everywhere and never leaves the area without their Mum?), and proceeded to start looking at Google Maps. Horrified, I said please find me someone here who knows how the transport works in the area. They didn't understand what I was asking so I walked away and figured it out myself (got a taxi to the nearest station with the busiest lines). I'm still surprised given how I can imagine how anyone lives in that area without taking a bus or train to get further afield.
- irrational 3y ago
  Maybe they had never been afield? I was once having dinner at a small restaurant in a village in northern Iceland. The server had impeccable English with an American accent. I got to talking to him and learned that he had never in his life (he was probably in his mid 20s) left his village. He had never even travelled to the nearest town/city.
  - telesilla 3y ago
    I was more concerned with the lack of training by the hotel, everyone arrives either by private car or taxi via the local train system and in a hotel of that calibre I simply expected better awareness from the front desk. I have nothing against that particular person. So regarding this french village, I hope they give residents decent directions training to help the lost travelers if they expect them to go without their phones.
- touisteur 3y ago
  I... use Google Maps a lot for day to day public transportation, in France. Most of the transport systems are integrated it works wherever I go, in Ile de France but also plenty of other cities, including smaller cities like e.g. Chartres. YMMV Went to Porto too recently, same experience. Very cool, especially as a first approach when you don't know the city enough to plan and orient, or if you are like me and spend hours wandering randomly deep in cities...
- dotnet00 3y ago
  I'll typically use Google Maps even if it's a route I travel often. Even if you know the area, if you're going to be assisting a guest in getting directions, it's worth checking in case there are some changes you missed (eg delays, maintenance notices). So it's pretty ridiculous to be offended because someone figured they'd check online before giving you information. Especially if the trains are notorious for not arriving. Why wouldn't you want to be checking for the latest information in that situation? They can't telepathically obtain information that the train is going to arrive.
  - telesilla 3y ago
    In this case the person was missing crucial local knowledge about the train system that Google doesn't have and did not have awareness of the problem they potentially were sending me into - it wasn't about trains not arriving but which station was the best one to be stranded at if a train was missed. I knew enough of that area to be cautious, the hotel attendant knew less. Maps will often give public transport directions that simply are inconvenient because it doesn't know the human realities of a trip (changes require crossing a busy road, or waiting at an isolated bus stop or unmanned train station, or that walking one block over gets a better bus) and I'll always take a local's train and subway knowledge over Maps.
    - dotnet00 3y ago
      Given that context your reaction is more understandable.
Kye 3y ago
My memory is just incompatible with direction-giving. In one ear, out the other. I need a map to navigate an unknown place. This is also my issue with the "put your camera away, live in the moment!" crowd. Well it's have my camera out or have no photo anchors to bring memories out of whatever fog they fall in to.
- williamcotton 3y ago
  You could write a poem about what you saw that day. Photography is just one kind of expression.
  - Kye 3y ago
    I'm talking about photography as documentation, not art.
    - williamcotton 3y ago
      How is a poem not documentation? How is a photograph not art? Rhymes are how epic poems were memorized before the advent of a form of writing capable of recording something of length. Put your experiences to light verse and musical accompaniment and you’ve got something even more memorable! Do you remember your photographs when you’re not looking at them? I remember my songs! I remember where I was when I wrote them and who I was around. I remember writing a song about the man who brought a shotgun to the roof of a hospital in SF and was killed by a SWAT team. I remember the song I wrote about the Google barge and the security guard I talked to there one night. I remember the song I wrote on a beach in Hawaii, the song I wrote about my hometown and the lackluster reunion ski trip that reminded me why I left my hometown. I don’t take many pictures and I don’t have the best memory, but I have vivid memories of the sights and sounds of the places I was when I was looking up and around and writing. Where I was decidedly not looking down at a device and rather living untethered and soaking in the world around me. I haven’t had a data plan on my phone for about 8 years and the primary reason is so that I can observe and experience!
      - 3y ago
powersnail 3y ago
I still remember the first day at university. My plane was delayed, and I missed the first day orientation. The bus dropped us off somewhere in the campus. With no map, no guide, hungry and thirsty, I spent the next 2 hours looking for the dining hall by asking for directions, to no eventual avail. Luckily, in the end, two good-hearted seniors took me to pizza and walked me to my dorm. When I got the map the next day, I realized that all the roads are curves and circles, and intersecting at strange angles, and the buildings aren't situated as blocks. It's almost impossible to follow instructions like "walk straight for two blocks and then turn right", especially at night. As far as navigation goes, I'll take GPS over asking for directions any day.
jltsiren 3y ago
I think asking for directions is often conceptually wrong. Everyday knowledge tends to be implicit rather than explicit. People living in organically grown cities may think in terms of adjacencies, not directions. If you want to go from point A to point F, one route goes through B, C, D, and E. Except that points B, C, D, and E may not have names, or the name is irrelevant in everyday life. It may even be difficult to describe what those places look like.
- Terr_ 3y ago
  Also the road names I know the least are the ones I walk the most. Familiarity allows the information to be pruned.
jijijijij 3y ago
Also, in my experience, the average French of any age, not for the life of them, would even consider tainting their lips and betraying their cuisine by speaking English. They learned English in school, alright, it's a choice. So, to navigate, you'd have to be able to converse in French somewhat fluently. Especially, outside a large city.
- jraph 3y ago
  Chauvinism might play a role in some rare cases but it's often just that we don't dare to speak English and risk making mistakes, because of how languages and actually everything is taught at school here. We also somehow focus a lot on grammar, which I personally loved, but that just blocks a lot of us. Outside a large city it might also be that occasions to practice English are vanishingly rare and when you have never really practiced outside school, it doesn't quite work out. Now, I'm still a bit surprised. Many, many people can speak some English just fine here, especially younger people. Are your experiences recent and where was it?
  - jijijijij 3y ago
    Some years ago. I am not a native speaker either, so both sides would have been struggling a bit. At least back then, people really didn't want to speak English. Though, in Paris random French strangers on the subway were usually fluent.
    - sokoloff 3y ago
      My French is weak, but I can passably order and do routine tourist comms. In a cafe in Paris, I started to order and the waiter stopped me with the very amusing, “Monsieur, please. We do this in English; it’s easier that way…”
- fnordian_slip 3y ago
  From my experience, that is a popular opinion, but mostly perpetuated by people who only went to Paris, and didn't bother to learn at least a couple of simple phrases. I got through France just fine while hiking and hitchhiking on my almost nonexistent french, mainly speaking English and German. Just starting with "bonjour" or "ca va?" often lead to people offering me to sleep in their homes instead of under my tarp, especially in small towns, where the older population doesn't see many outsiders, and is therefore generally interested in having something to talk about. Of course their English and German is rather limited, so it takes a long time to communicate, but it felt very rewarding whenever it worked.
poulsbohemian 3y ago
> Having Interrailed across northern Europe and travelled within a variety of cities without an internet-connected phone, I am now confident in declaring that the average local is terrible at giving directions! Decades ago some friends and I were in Nuremberg and we went to the tourist info kiosk to ask for directions (Americans speaking German), having just arrived on the train. We went outside and I wanted to go one direction and my good friend the other. We argued, in got way more heated than we’d ever been before. Finally he said to me - yes, you are right, that is the direction he said we should go, but that’s not what he meant. To this day I still don’t know what Ryan picked up on that I didn’t, and even Ryan would agree my German is better - but I was wrong and Ryan was right, and the guy at the info kiosk was 100% wrong.
TowerTall 3y ago
In my experience, always ask girls for directions, not boys. A boy will never admit that he doesn't know the answer so he will gladly send you off in any direction. A girl on the other hand will try everything in her power to get you in the right direction and will have no problem admitting it if she doesn't know where it is.
noduerme 3y ago
>> Having Interrailed across northern Europe and travelled within a variety of cities without an internet-connected phone, I am now confident in declaring that the average local is terrible at giving directions I really can't speak about northern Europe, but giving wrong directions to foreigners is practically a national sport in Spain.

telesilla 3y ago

I was at a very nice hotel recently in the countryside where car sharing apps don't work and the trains in that country are notorious for not arriving. I needed to get a train to a near town, a very very well known place and it was at least a 3-connection trip. The young person at the desk said, oh I don't take public transport (I guess they cycle everywhere and never leaves the area without their Mum?), and proceeded to start looking at Google Maps. Horrified, I said please find me someone here who knows how the transport works in the area. They didn't understand what I was asking so I walked away and figured it out myself (got a taxi to the nearest station with the busiest lines). I'm still surprised given how I can imagine how anyone lives in that area without taking a bus or train to get further afield.

irrational 3y ago
Maybe they had never been afield? I was once having dinner at a small restaurant in a village in northern Iceland. The server had impeccable English with an American accent. I got to talking to him and learned that he had never in his life (he was probably in his mid 20s) left his village. He had never even travelled to the nearest town/city.
- telesilla 3y ago
  I was more concerned with the lack of training by the hotel, everyone arrives either by private car or taxi via the local train system and in a hotel of that calibre I simply expected better awareness from the front desk. I have nothing against that particular person. So regarding this french village, I hope they give residents decent directions training to help the lost travelers if they expect them to go without their phones.
touisteur 3y ago
I... use Google Maps a lot for day to day public transportation, in France. Most of the transport systems are integrated it works wherever I go, in Ile de France but also plenty of other cities, including smaller cities like e.g. Chartres. YMMV Went to Porto too recently, same experience. Very cool, especially as a first approach when you don't know the city enough to plan and orient, or if you are like me and spend hours wandering randomly deep in cities...
dotnet00 3y ago
I'll typically use Google Maps even if it's a route I travel often. Even if you know the area, if you're going to be assisting a guest in getting directions, it's worth checking in case there are some changes you missed (eg delays, maintenance notices). So it's pretty ridiculous to be offended because someone figured they'd check online before giving you information. Especially if the trains are notorious for not arriving. Why wouldn't you want to be checking for the latest information in that situation? They can't telepathically obtain information that the train is going to arrive.
- telesilla 3y ago
  In this case the person was missing crucial local knowledge about the train system that Google doesn't have and did not have awareness of the problem they potentially were sending me into - it wasn't about trains not arriving but which station was the best one to be stranded at if a train was missed. I knew enough of that area to be cautious, the hotel attendant knew less. Maps will often give public transport directions that simply are inconvenient because it doesn't know the human realities of a trip (changes require crossing a busy road, or waiting at an isolated bus stop or unmanned train station, or that walking one block over gets a better bus) and I'll always take a local's train and subway knowledge over Maps.
  - dotnet00 3y ago
    Given that context your reaction is more understandable.

Kye 3y ago

My memory is just incompatible with direction-giving. In one ear, out the other. I need a map to navigate an unknown place. This is also my issue with the "put your camera away, live in the moment!" crowd. Well it's have my camera out or have no photo anchors to bring memories out of whatever fog they fall in to.

williamcotton 3y ago
You could write a poem about what you saw that day. Photography is just one kind of expression.
- Kye 3y ago
  I'm talking about photography as documentation, not art.
  - williamcotton 3y ago
    How is a poem not documentation? How is a photograph not art? Rhymes are how epic poems were memorized before the advent of a form of writing capable of recording something of length. Put your experiences to light verse and musical accompaniment and you’ve got something even more memorable! Do you remember your photographs when you’re not looking at them? I remember my songs! I remember where I was when I wrote them and who I was around. I remember writing a song about the man who brought a shotgun to the roof of a hospital in SF and was killed by a SWAT team. I remember the song I wrote about the Google barge and the security guard I talked to there one night. I remember the song I wrote on a beach in Hawaii, the song I wrote about my hometown and the lackluster reunion ski trip that reminded me why I left my hometown. I don’t take many pictures and I don’t have the best memory, but I have vivid memories of the sights and sounds of the places I was when I was looking up and around and writing. Where I was decidedly not looking down at a device and rather living untethered and soaking in the world around me. I haven’t had a data plan on my phone for about 8 years and the primary reason is so that I can observe and experience!
    - 3y ago

powersnail 3y ago

I still remember the first day at university. My plane was delayed, and I missed the first day orientation. The bus dropped us off somewhere in the campus. With no map, no guide, hungry and thirsty, I spent the next 2 hours looking for the dining hall by asking for directions, to no eventual avail. Luckily, in the end, two good-hearted seniors took me to pizza and walked me to my dorm. When I got the map the next day, I realized that all the roads are curves and circles, and intersecting at strange angles, and the buildings aren't situated as blocks. It's almost impossible to follow instructions like "walk straight for two blocks and then turn right", especially at night. As far as navigation goes, I'll take GPS over asking for directions any day.

jltsiren 3y ago

I think asking for directions is often conceptually wrong. Everyday knowledge tends to be implicit rather than explicit. People living in organically grown cities may think in terms of adjacencies, not directions. If you want to go from point A to point F, one route goes through B, C, D, and E. Except that points B, C, D, and E may not have names, or the name is irrelevant in everyday life. It may even be difficult to describe what those places look like.

Terr_ 3y ago
Also the road names I know the least are the ones I walk the most. Familiarity allows the information to be pruned.

jijijijij 3y ago

Also, in my experience, the average French of any age, not for the life of them, would even consider tainting their lips and betraying their cuisine by speaking English. They learned English in school, alright, it's a choice. So, to navigate, you'd have to be able to converse in French somewhat fluently. Especially, outside a large city.

jraph 3y ago
Chauvinism might play a role in some rare cases but it's often just that we don't dare to speak English and risk making mistakes, because of how languages and actually everything is taught at school here. We also somehow focus a lot on grammar, which I personally loved, but that just blocks a lot of us. Outside a large city it might also be that occasions to practice English are vanishingly rare and when you have never really practiced outside school, it doesn't quite work out. Now, I'm still a bit surprised. Many, many people can speak some English just fine here, especially younger people. Are your experiences recent and where was it?
- jijijijij 3y ago
  Some years ago. I am not a native speaker either, so both sides would have been struggling a bit. At least back then, people really didn't want to speak English. Though, in Paris random French strangers on the subway were usually fluent.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    My French is weak, but I can passably order and do routine tourist comms. In a cafe in Paris, I started to order and the waiter stopped me with the very amusing, “Monsieur, please. We do this in English; it’s easier that way…”
fnordian_slip 3y ago
From my experience, that is a popular opinion, but mostly perpetuated by people who only went to Paris, and didn't bother to learn at least a couple of simple phrases. I got through France just fine while hiking and hitchhiking on my almost nonexistent french, mainly speaking English and German. Just starting with "bonjour" or "ca va?" often lead to people offering me to sleep in their homes instead of under my tarp, especially in small towns, where the older population doesn't see many outsiders, and is therefore generally interested in having something to talk about. Of course their English and German is rather limited, so it takes a long time to communicate, but it felt very rewarding whenever it worked.

poulsbohemian 3y ago

> Having Interrailed across northern Europe and travelled within a variety of cities without an internet-connected phone, I am now confident in declaring that the average local is terrible at giving directions! Decades ago some friends and I were in Nuremberg and we went to the tourist info kiosk to ask for directions (Americans speaking German), having just arrived on the train. We went outside and I wanted to go one direction and my good friend the other. We argued, in got way more heated than we’d ever been before. Finally he said to me - yes, you are right, that is the direction he said we should go, but that’s not what he meant. To this day I still don’t know what Ryan picked up on that I didn’t, and even Ryan would agree my German is better - but I was wrong and Ryan was right, and the guy at the info kiosk was 100% wrong.

TowerTall 3y ago

In my experience, always ask girls for directions, not boys. A boy will never admit that he doesn't know the answer so he will gladly send you off in any direction. A girl on the other hand will try everything in her power to get you in the right direction and will have no problem admitting it if she doesn't know where it is.

noduerme 3y ago

>> Having Interrailed across northern Europe and travelled within a variety of cities without an internet-connected phone, I am now confident in declaring that the average local is terrible at giving directions I really can't speak about northern Europe, but giving wrong directions to foreigners is practically a national sport in Spain.