8 ms·

Except taxes.

by tnmom 3y ago

Except taxes.

borski 3y ago
Dno. The roads here are way better than other places with lower taxes, it’s beautiful, the air and water are clean, and so on. Everywhere has plenty of things to complain about. I’d like to spend less in taxes, always. But at least it does feel, objectively, like we live in a mostly lovely place that actually does protect employees, have access to great healthcare, great roads, great charging infrastructure (relative to the rest of the US) and so on.
- borkt 3y ago
  What part of the state are you in with good roads? Sonoma county here, miserable roads
  - borski 3y ago
    Bay Area, but I’m from NYC, so my standard for “bad road” is relatively high - there are a lot of potholes right now from the rain, but in general they get fixed quickly, the roads are wide and many-lanes, and generally don’t do insane things like loop back on themselves or anything like that.
    - kelnos 3y ago
      I disagree with this. I live in SF and the roads range from terrible to just-ok. And not just in the city; US-101 is just kinda ok (despite vaguely-regular maintenance), and many local roads I see in nearby smaller towns and cities (South SF, Daly City, Belmont, San Mateo) are -- at best -- just ok. Similar situation when I drive north toward Sonoma. A major issue in SF proper is that crews are constantly digging up parts of roads to work on pipes or whatever, and then patch them in a haphazard, crappy way. Roads get fully resurfaced rarely. As an example, there's a super nasty patched and re-patched and re-patched and re-patched section of 18th St (between Minnesota and Tennessee) that has been a nightmare for at least 4 years now. A section of Tennessee between 18th and 19th was resurfaced about a year ago (in part because there was building construction along the road that did heavy damage), but just this past week they were digging up a large section in the center of the road to do some work underneath, and when they patched it up, they as usual did a crap job, so the road sucks again. I grew up in New Jersey (80s) and Maryland (90s), and the roads were much better maintained in both of those places, Maryland especially.
      - borski 3y ago
        I agree SF has shit roads. I do not find that to be the case almost anywhere else in CA. I’ll put it this way too: while I’m mindful of potholes, generally, I have yet to have a single issue popping any of my 21” thin sidewall summer tires on my >5500lb EV. My counterparts in the South have popped between 2 and 10 depending on who you ask. The answer each time is: hit a pothole. Some of that’s driving. Some of it is also just the roads. They’re far from perfect. But they’re better than most other states.
- ensignavenger 3y ago
  Anecdotal, but I have driven across a majority of US states, from Florida to Alaska (and also, on both the East and West sides of Canada) and haven't noticed any strong correlation between the quality of the roads and how high a states taxes are.
  - lettergram 3y ago
    Most of what you’re driving on could be federal highways. I’m in the same boat, have driven just about everywhere and I haven’t seen any major correlation.
    - alienthrowaway 3y ago
      I noticed an immediate degradation in surface quality on the interstate when I crossed into Alabama. Aren't the states responsible for upkeep using federal dollars? Some states are better than others at this.
      - simfree 3y ago
        Initial roadway construction is using primarily federal dollars, but long-term maintenance is usually primarily funded by the state or local municipality.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Since you mentioned Florida, the roads go from good to bad as soon as you cross the border into Alabama, which is a really interesting experience on the interstate. But yes, the roads are bad in Deep South states, although the taxes aren’t really that low either (just people don’t make much money to get much out of them).
    - mandeepj 3y ago
      > But yes, the roads are bad in Deep South states Interesting! Quite contrary from the prevailing wisdom - snow and salt destroy the roads. Maybe they don’t make them well to begin with.
- SoftTalker 3y ago
  It's because they don't have winter. Winter, freezing/thawing, and salt is what destroys roads.
  - borski 3y ago
    Tell that to Tahoe or any of the many mountainous regions of CA. :)
  - asadotzler 3y ago
    Tell that to Mississippi which has s*t roads and no winter freezing/thawing or salt to consider. Broke ass red states can barely afford to keep their roads passable for the most part. There are a couple of exceptions where the states are willing to starve their children to keep the roads up, but most red states fail at both feeding kids and maintaining roads. If it wasn't for the cash infusion from the well off blue states, the red states would literally be third world.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  Don't forget the world-class higher education system, with the two of the top universities in the world.
  - borski 3y ago
    Oh yeah, and spectacular public schooling - the state schools are top notch, as are many of the lower education public schools.
    - geraldwhen 3y ago
      LA county school system is one of the worst in the nation and it costs nearly the most.
      - borski 3y ago
        Fair point. I don’t live in LA and was not aware of the school issues there. But by and large, CA does have great public school, and top-tier public universities.
- vondur 3y ago
  Roads in California are good? We must live in different states.
  - borski 3y ago
    Where are you from? To be fair, I mean relative to other states. Not that they’re perfect.
  - sushid 3y ago
    It truly depends within CA. San Diego or suburbs of LA? It's pristine. Bay Area? The roads flood with the slightest bit of rain and have potholes the size of a basketball.
- nullc 3y ago
  My experience is that the Florida roads are significantly better than the roads in the bay area. And Florida has no income tax and lower sales taxes than California.
  - borski 3y ago
    I mentioned Florida as the notable outlier. They have a lot worse other things, but I agree the roads in FL are great.
  - Tostino 3y ago
    They make up their tax revenue in other ways.
- kelnos 3y ago
  > The roads here are way better than other places with lower taxes I live in San Francisco and absolutely disagree with this. The roads are garbage. And lest we think that's just a city thing, whenever I leave the city and drive out on local and state roads they range from garbage to ok-ish. My family moved to Maryland when I was a teenager, and the roads there were pristine (90s, not sure about nowadays). It felt like some section of some road or highway near me was always being resurfaced.
aeturnum 3y ago
Arguably, it's better to pay higher taxes on a job that's protected than lower taxes on a job that you can't count on.
- chefandy 3y ago
  Yeah. I totally get why people conceptually hate the idea of paying taxes, even if my values lead me to a very different conclusion. That said, most of the arguments I've encountered about places with higher taxes being worse places to live strike me as either glib and uninformed, or in bad faith. That's not a partisan-specific folly by any measure, but it's a folly nonetheless.
- xyzzyz 3y ago
  It depends on how high the taxes are and what protection is offered exactly. The extra protections I would get in California are not worth nearly enough for it to be worth for me.
  - borski 3y ago
    And that’s ok! But those protections are worth it for a lot of other people. :)
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  It is an honest argument. No point in a secure job that can't even pay rent. But people with families can't exactly engage in multi job hustles and expect to remain a healthy unit.
jon_richards 3y ago
> Though Texas has no state-level personal income tax, it does levy relatively high consumption and property taxes on residents to make up the difference. Ultimately, it has a higher effective state and local tax rate for a median U.S. household at 12.73% than California's 8.97%, according to a new report from WalletHub. Obviously there are more than two states, but it’s not so simple. Plus, someone’s got to pay for everything: > [California] receives $0.99 in federal expenditures per dollar of taxes paid, which is below the national average return for states of $1.22 per dollar paid, according to its review of a 2015 New York Comptroller study.
- dmitrygr 3y ago
  > for a median U.S. household Please, not more of this nonsense Show me a SWE who makes median ($40,480 in 2023) money or less. That quote does not apply. For people making SWE money, Texas is a LOT better tax-wise
  - fzeroracer 3y ago
    I lived in Texas making six figures as a SWE. Texas was not far better tax wise. Texas does a lot to ding you in ways that aren't taxes, and buying a home that doesn't involve an hour and a half commute one way is unrealistic.
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > For people making SWE money, Texas is a LOT better tax-wise How do the people of Texas pay for things, then, if not through income taxes?
    - tomrod 3y ago
      Property tax, sales tax, toll roads in places they shouldn't be, and so forth.
    - acdha 3y ago
      Property and local taxes, and also simply doing less. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state-2022/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state... Californians pay more taxes but they also get better social services, schools, universities, parks, etc.
jjallen 3y ago
Totally agree. When taxes are the highest in the country and take almost 40% of your income and the only people who own houses are the ones that bought them 20-50 years ago that is very employee unfriendly.
- acdha 3y ago
  Exaggerating like that doesn’t help your argument. California’s top tax rate is 12.3% and you’re only paying just on income over $680k: https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2023/2023-540-tax-rate-schedules.pdf https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2023/2023-540-tax-rate-schedule... This means that in practice, California isn’t even in the top 10: https://www.npr.org/2023/03/30/1166970506/tax-burden-by-state-income-property-sales https://www.npr.org/2023/03/30/1166970506/tax-burden-by-stat... Now, the housing market is not great but again, greatly overstating your case is not an effective strategy, and it isn’t a uniquely California problem even though prop 13 makes it worse there than many other places.
  - ipaddr 3y ago
    These are the rates and includes a over million 1% tax for mental support. California 13.3% Hawaii 11% New York 10.9% New Jersey 10.75% District of Columbia 10.75% Oregon 9.9% Minnesota 9.85% Massachusetts 9% Vermont 8.75% Wisconsin 7.65% Tax burden is a different measurement including property. Parent poster has no property.
    - acdha 3y ago
      I don’t know your source. None of the ones I’ve seen support that ranking: https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state-2022/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state... Ah, I see that was copied from the list of top tax rates rather than what most people actually pay: https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/fun-facts/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-taxes/L6HPAVqSF https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/fun-facts/states-with-t... So, yes, if you’re making millions per year in taxable income, California’s top rate is higher. That is not a concern for anyone outside of the 99.5th percentile, which is uncommon even in FAANG circles. Tax burden is also the best metric to use because the money has to come from somewhere. If you’re trying to decide where to live, looking at state income tax only is as foolish as only looking at housing purchase prices without also considering your commute, utility, and maintenance expenses.

Except taxes.

by tnmom 3y ago

Except taxes.

Dno. The roads here are way better than other places with lower taxes, it’s beautiful, the air and water are clean, and so on. Everywhere has plenty of things to complain about. I’d like to spend less in taxes, always. But at least it does feel, objectively, like we live in a mostly lovely place that actually does protect employees, have access to great healthcare, great roads, great charging infrastructure (relative to the rest of the US) and so on.

borkt 3y ago
What part of the state are you in with good roads? Sonoma county here, miserable roads
- borski 3y ago
  Bay Area, but I’m from NYC, so my standard for “bad road” is relatively high - there are a lot of potholes right now from the rain, but in general they get fixed quickly, the roads are wide and many-lanes, and generally don’t do insane things like loop back on themselves or anything like that.
  - kelnos 3y ago
    I disagree with this. I live in SF and the roads range from terrible to just-ok. And not just in the city; US-101 is just kinda ok (despite vaguely-regular maintenance), and many local roads I see in nearby smaller towns and cities (South SF, Daly City, Belmont, San Mateo) are -- at best -- just ok. Similar situation when I drive north toward Sonoma. A major issue in SF proper is that crews are constantly digging up parts of roads to work on pipes or whatever, and then patch them in a haphazard, crappy way. Roads get fully resurfaced rarely. As an example, there's a super nasty patched and re-patched and re-patched and re-patched section of 18th St (between Minnesota and Tennessee) that has been a nightmare for at least 4 years now. A section of Tennessee between 18th and 19th was resurfaced about a year ago (in part because there was building construction along the road that did heavy damage), but just this past week they were digging up a large section in the center of the road to do some work underneath, and when they patched it up, they as usual did a crap job, so the road sucks again. I grew up in New Jersey (80s) and Maryland (90s), and the roads were much better maintained in both of those places, Maryland especially.
    - borski 3y ago
      I agree SF has shit roads. I do not find that to be the case almost anywhere else in CA. I’ll put it this way too: while I’m mindful of potholes, generally, I have yet to have a single issue popping any of my 21” thin sidewall summer tires on my >5500lb EV. My counterparts in the South have popped between 2 and 10 depending on who you ask. The answer each time is: hit a pothole. Some of that’s driving. Some of it is also just the roads. They’re far from perfect. But they’re better than most other states.
ensignavenger 3y ago
Anecdotal, but I have driven across a majority of US states, from Florida to Alaska (and also, on both the East and West sides of Canada) and haven't noticed any strong correlation between the quality of the roads and how high a states taxes are.
- lettergram 3y ago
  Most of what you’re driving on could be federal highways. I’m in the same boat, have driven just about everywhere and I haven’t seen any major correlation.
  - alienthrowaway 3y ago
    I noticed an immediate degradation in surface quality on the interstate when I crossed into Alabama. Aren't the states responsible for upkeep using federal dollars? Some states are better than others at this.
    - simfree 3y ago
      Initial roadway construction is using primarily federal dollars, but long-term maintenance is usually primarily funded by the state or local municipality.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  Since you mentioned Florida, the roads go from good to bad as soon as you cross the border into Alabama, which is a really interesting experience on the interstate. But yes, the roads are bad in Deep South states, although the taxes aren’t really that low either (just people don’t make much money to get much out of them).
  - mandeepj 3y ago
    > But yes, the roads are bad in Deep South states Interesting! Quite contrary from the prevailing wisdom - snow and salt destroy the roads. Maybe they don’t make them well to begin with.
SoftTalker 3y ago
It's because they don't have winter. Winter, freezing/thawing, and salt is what destroys roads.
- borski 3y ago
  Tell that to Tahoe or any of the many mountainous regions of CA. :)
- asadotzler 3y ago
  Tell that to Mississippi which has s*t roads and no winter freezing/thawing or salt to consider. Broke ass red states can barely afford to keep their roads passable for the most part. There are a couple of exceptions where the states are willing to starve their children to keep the roads up, but most red states fail at both feeding kids and maintaining roads. If it wasn't for the cash infusion from the well off blue states, the red states would literally be third world.
wolverine876 3y ago
Don't forget the world-class higher education system, with the two of the top universities in the world.
- borski 3y ago
  Oh yeah, and spectacular public schooling - the state schools are top notch, as are many of the lower education public schools.
  - geraldwhen 3y ago
    LA county school system is one of the worst in the nation and it costs nearly the most.
    - borski 3y ago
      Fair point. I don’t live in LA and was not aware of the school issues there. But by and large, CA does have great public school, and top-tier public universities.
vondur 3y ago
Roads in California are good? We must live in different states.
- borski 3y ago
  Where are you from? To be fair, I mean relative to other states. Not that they’re perfect.
- sushid 3y ago
  It truly depends within CA. San Diego or suburbs of LA? It's pristine. Bay Area? The roads flood with the slightest bit of rain and have potholes the size of a basketball.
nullc 3y ago
My experience is that the Florida roads are significantly better than the roads in the bay area. And Florida has no income tax and lower sales taxes than California.
- borski 3y ago
  I mentioned Florida as the notable outlier. They have a lot worse other things, but I agree the roads in FL are great.
- Tostino 3y ago
  They make up their tax revenue in other ways.
kelnos 3y ago
> The roads here are way better than other places with lower taxes I live in San Francisco and absolutely disagree with this. The roads are garbage. And lest we think that's just a city thing, whenever I leave the city and drive out on local and state roads they range from garbage to ok-ish. My family moved to Maryland when I was a teenager, and the roads there were pristine (90s, not sure about nowadays). It felt like some section of some road or highway near me was always being resurfaced.

aeturnum 3y ago

Arguably, it's better to pay higher taxes on a job that's protected than lower taxes on a job that you can't count on.

chefandy 3y ago
Yeah. I totally get why people conceptually hate the idea of paying taxes, even if my values lead me to a very different conclusion. That said, most of the arguments I've encountered about places with higher taxes being worse places to live strike me as either glib and uninformed, or in bad faith. That's not a partisan-specific folly by any measure, but it's a folly nonetheless.
xyzzyz 3y ago
It depends on how high the taxes are and what protection is offered exactly. The extra protections I would get in California are not worth nearly enough for it to be worth for me.
- borski 3y ago
  And that’s ok! But those protections are worth it for a lot of other people. :)
johnnyanmac 3y ago
It is an honest argument. No point in a secure job that can't even pay rent. But people with families can't exactly engage in multi job hustles and expect to remain a healthy unit.

jon_richards 3y ago

> Though Texas has no state-level personal income tax, it does levy relatively high consumption and property taxes on residents to make up the difference. Ultimately, it has a higher effective state and local tax rate for a median U.S. household at 12.73% than California's 8.97%, according to a new report from WalletHub. Obviously there are more than two states, but it’s not so simple. Plus, someone’s got to pay for everything: > [California] receives $0.99 in federal expenditures per dollar of taxes paid, which is below the national average return for states of $1.22 per dollar paid, according to its review of a 2015 New York Comptroller study.

dmitrygr 3y ago
> for a median U.S. household Please, not more of this nonsense Show me a SWE who makes median ($40,480 in 2023) money or less. That quote does not apply. For people making SWE money, Texas is a LOT better tax-wise
- fzeroracer 3y ago
  I lived in Texas making six figures as a SWE. Texas was not far better tax wise. Texas does a lot to ding you in ways that aren't taxes, and buying a home that doesn't involve an hour and a half commute one way is unrealistic.
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > For people making SWE money, Texas is a LOT better tax-wise How do the people of Texas pay for things, then, if not through income taxes?
  - tomrod 3y ago
    Property tax, sales tax, toll roads in places they shouldn't be, and so forth.
  - acdha 3y ago
    Property and local taxes, and also simply doing less. https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state-2022/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state... Californians pay more taxes but they also get better social services, schools, universities, parks, etc.

jjallen 3y ago

Totally agree. When taxes are the highest in the country and take almost 40% of your income and the only people who own houses are the ones that bought them 20-50 years ago that is very employee unfriendly.

acdha 3y ago
Exaggerating like that doesn’t help your argument. California’s top tax rate is 12.3% and you’re only paying just on income over $680k: https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2023/2023-540-tax-rate-schedules.pdf https://www.ftb.ca.gov/forms/2023/2023-540-tax-rate-schedule... This means that in practice, California isn’t even in the top 10: https://www.npr.org/2023/03/30/1166970506/tax-burden-by-state-income-property-sales https://www.npr.org/2023/03/30/1166970506/tax-burden-by-stat... Now, the housing market is not great but again, greatly overstating your case is not an effective strategy, and it isn’t a uniquely California problem even though prop 13 makes it worse there than many other places.
- ipaddr 3y ago
  These are the rates and includes a over million 1% tax for mental support. California 13.3% Hawaii 11% New York 10.9% New Jersey 10.75% District of Columbia 10.75% Oregon 9.9% Minnesota 9.85% Massachusetts 9% Vermont 8.75% Wisconsin 7.65% Tax burden is a different measurement including property. Parent poster has no property.
  - acdha 3y ago
    I don’t know your source. None of the ones I’ve seen support that ranking: https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state-2022/ https://taxfoundation.org/data/all/state/tax-burden-by-state... Ah, I see that was copied from the list of top tax rates rather than what most people actually pay: https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/fun-facts/states-with-the-highest-and-lowest-taxes/L6HPAVqSF https://turbotax.intuit.com/tax-tips/fun-facts/states-with-t... So, yes, if you’re making millions per year in taxable income, California’s top rate is higher. That is not a concern for anyone outside of the 99.5th percentile, which is uncommon even in FAANG circles. Tax burden is also the best metric to use because the money has to come from somewhere. If you’re trying to decide where to live, looking at state income tax only is as foolish as only looking at housing purchase prices without also considering your commute, utility, and maintenance expenses.