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I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate fu

I just replaced a furnace... everyone I called for a quote would not touch a heat pump with a 20foot pole, or they wanted prices that were 2X what a separate furnace and AC would cost to install. It was very strange. This is the second home where I had this experience.. basically, they really did not want to install it. I ended up going with gas as no local person would install/warranty a heat pump, or, it was priced so high it was a non-starter (e.g. a gas furnace is $4k, the AC is $4k, making it $8k, _but_ if you want a heat pump, well, that is going to be $15,999.85.) This was recently, btw, as in last month. I am still kind of shaking my head.

huytersd 3y ago
If you’re somewhat rural the contractors just don’t have the experience to do it so they try to quote you out of the decision. I had to shop around until I found a contractor that had done this before and I was able to get a whole home heat pump for about the same price as a regular furnace/AC system (because of the rebates).
- TheBlight 3y ago
  How well do they function? Do they provide nice consistent heat? How's the noise? Sorry to clog up HN with a random request of a product quality review but I'm in the market right now to replace my furnace as well. Thanks.
  - demondemidi 3y ago
    Heat pumps need to come with an electric heater because pumps stop working below 30 deg F.
    - headsupernova 3y ago
      This isn't true, the latest models work at temps far below that. There are still thresholds where you'd want another source, but they're very functional even in the upper Midwest.
    - wtallis 3y ago
      They come with an electric heater, but they don't stop working until far below freezing point. It's normal for a heat pump to still be better than pure resistive electric heating even at 10°F.
    - SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
      Ground source heat pumps are available that go down significantly lower than 30F. They are more expensive. Though running the electric wires is also very expensive due to their inefficiency. Typical heat pumps are often better suited for warmer climates because of this It also appears that the tech for the more typical air source heat pumps has improved significantly in recent years which makes it more viable for colder climates
      - virtue3 3y ago
        I believe they run a heat conductive fluid through heat exchange coils in the ground. This allows you to pump heat into the ground during winter and extract said heat (not sure how accurate this is) during the winter.
        BobaFloutist 3y ago
        You're not storing the heat that's underground, it's just that the ground is a huge thing with massive heat storage capacity that doesn't notice weather as much as above ground does. If above ground ranges from 0-100 degrees F, underground likely ranges from like 64-68 degrees F, which makes it really energetically "cheap" to get to your preferred temperature range, heating to idk 70 at most and cooling to probably not even 65.
    - Fuut 3y ago
      This is just not true at all. Why do you even respond if you don't know enough about heat pumps?
      - bluGill 3y ago
        It is practically true. Sure my heat pump can make heat below 28F - but it was sized for cool my house in summer and so it cannot make enough heat anymore and so I need the backup heat.
      - demondemidi 3y ago
        Oh, sorry, I guess I was brainwashed by the "anti heat pump mafia". I had this conversation with three HVAC installers but according to this thread any HVAC installer that speaks ill of heatpumps is old and stupid. Recently, I stayed at an AirBNB recently that had a heatpump and the temps dropped during the deep freeze and it was running 100% of the time and failing. The AirBNB owner said it was brand new and I would be responsible for excessive electricity use. They didn't charge me. Based on this, I am sooo glad I replaced my dead furnace with gas three years ago and steered clear of heat pumps. But do go on about how I don't know enough.
        lkbm 3y ago
        Old heat pumps didn't do well in old temperatures. In the 80s and 90s, a heat pump couldn't handle freezing temps. Modern heat pumps do fine well below 0 degrees Celsius. Here's one that's great to -15 C and okay down to -25 C[0]. If you search cold-climate heat pumps, you'll find plenty of information about how modern heat pumps are fine in most the temperatures you'll find in most of the US (including up north). (I have heard that a lot of them are still only available in Europe, but you can definitely find some in the US.) [0] https://carbonswitch.com/best-cold-climate-heat-pump/ https://carbonswitch.com/best-cold-climate-heat-pump/
        antisthenes 3y ago
        I mean, instead of an argument you responded with some kind of rant about your Airbnb experience. So his point still stands.
    - huytersd 3y ago
      Not true, mine goes down to 23F with negligible decrease in efficiency and still functions after that, but with reduced efficiency.
  - gertlex 3y ago
    One anecdote I've seen is that the right way to run them is to maintain a near-steady-state temperature in the house, including overnight. I'm not sure if that's maybe a bit extreme and just how they suggest use to non-savvy home-owners, but it makes sense... They're not going to blast out heat to raise the house temperature 10 degrees in an hour in the morning. Spreading heat-increase over several hours is more feasible. Good insulation presumably helps a bunch, too. For a similar reason, heat pump water heaters tend to have a larger storage tank, as they take longer to heat the water and you want more of a usage buffer.
    - crazygringo 3y ago
      You don't need to run it overnight. But I do set a timer for mine to turn back on an hour before I get up. Because exactly -- it's not blasting hot air, it's merely circulating warm air. An hour beforehand works fine for mine though.
      - huytersd 3y ago
        Do you’ll not run your heat at night when it’s the coldest?
        crazygringo 3y ago
        Just in the bedroom. Don't need it anywhere else.
- bonton89 3y ago
  A guy at work doesn't have a heatpump, just some really high efficiency oil boiler. He lives in a rural area and basically had to become an expert on maintaining and repairing it himself because no one seems to know how to service the thing. My father had similar issues with his new boiler although in his case after constant failed repair attempts his local place finally hired some guy who knew what he was doing. There's also rebates on heatpumps around here but local forums seem to suggest that the installers are super backed up and quote "go away" prices. You can't get the rebate unless you go with a state approved installer, so even if you can install it yourself you're out of luck. Seems like they've just raised their prices to compensate for the rebate since they already had to much work.
- TuringNYC 3y ago
  >> I had to shop around until I found a contractor that had done this before and I was able to get a whole home heat pump for about the same price as a regular furnace/AC system (because of the rebates). Not sure the trouble is over. You are only good until you need servicing, and then you need to shop around again. Servicing is even worse, because it is an acute problem and you are under so much time pressure to solve the issue. Sometimes even the company that sold the unit does not honor their warranty. They shut down. They re-incorporate under a new company, etc.
- bluedino 3y ago
  > If you’re somewhat rural the contractors just don’t have the experience to do it so they try to quote you out of the decision. Or they're so busy they can pick and choose their jobs. I had a quote to replace a 12 foot section of pipe come in at $700, not even two hours worth of work.
- readingnews 3y ago
  I thought of that, I am not rural (town is about 300,000 people)... Perhaps that is rural in some areas I guess. The HVAC contractors here are pretty small, maybe they do not want to take the risk. As someone else said, if I had more time, I would have purchased a few DIY split systems... I might do that for AC only, as I did not replace the AC at that time.
jazzyjackson 3y ago
wait I didn't know I could replace my AC with a heat pump, can I replace my noisy AF condenser that's always grinding and hissing or do heat pumps make the same noises
- twiceaday 3y ago
  No, it's actually worse. The heat pump will make that same compressor noise when cooling in the summer AND heating in the winter.
- lolinder 3y ago
  A heat pump is just an air conditioner that can be run in reverse. Replacing your air conditioner might help if it makes the noise because it's old and broken, but if you just really dislike the sound of an air conditioner it probably won't help much.
  - modeless 3y ago
    Maybe one of the new variable speed ones would help?
  - ericd 3y ago
    The variable speed inverter ones tend to be much quieter than the old single-stage ones that most people have, fwiw.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      Ah, right! I actually have a variable stage regular AC unit, so that's not a benefit unique to heat pumps, that's something you can get by replacing your AC unit in general.
- SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
  A heat pump is the same technology as what your condenser is doing, just in reverse. So you could otherwise just think of an air conditioner as one half of the heat pump in this case. So no
- 3y ago
epistasis 3y ago
Your experience is extremely common. Residential HVAC contractors tend to be extremely conservative, and don't adopt new technologies quickly, or even attempt to understand them. I had some flexibility in time in replacing my 50 year old gas furnace, so I was able to call about 8 contractors before I finally found one who was comfortable with the tech and wanted to do it.
- ajross 3y ago
  Yeah, it's not an innovative sector, though a lot of the blame belongs with the hardware manufacturers and not the installers. FWIW, the quotes I got for installation weren't that awful. But getting it hooked up to the Nest thermostat turned out to be a 2-day process and require a subcontractor to show up.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    I've installed two Nest thermostats and there's industry standardized color-coding and functionality and Nest conforms to that. (I don't doubt that you had that problem, but I think that speaks more to the incompetence of the original installer than to the complexity of installing a thermostat with a screen.)
    - ajross 3y ago
      I think it was more that the heat pump itself really wanted to be integrated with the Carrier Official Thermostat (which I think might have been an ecobee but can't remember), and the documentation on how to run it in legacy/standard/on-off mode was missing or confusing.
  - CharlieDigital 3y ago
    Probably a bit more nuanced than that. A lot of the installers run small businesses. If one of these units goes wrong or if they do the install wrong because it's new to them, then that's lost time and lost revenue rectifying it.
    - 3y ago
Dowwie 3y ago
where are you located? I was quoted 14k to replace a gas furnace for a single family in NJ
- ecshafer 3y ago
  Unless that's a massive furnace that's robbery. In philly I replaced my furnace for $6k 2 years ago.
  - Dowwie 3y ago
    Got two quotes thus far and they're in the same ballpark. I asked for quotes in December 2023, 2 months ago. Bergen County, NJ.
- losvedir 3y ago
  I had our gas furnace replaced this past November, a 100k BTU Rheem one, for $2,200. This was outside Chicago in Northwest Indiana, though, which is a pretty low cost of living area. I spent some time trying to get a heat pump instead, but no one around here was familiar with them. I worried that if it failed service would be a pain.
UncleOxidant 3y ago
Had exactly the same experience recently. It seems like there are plenty of good mini-split heatpump systems that will work down to 0F (or even lower) without any kind of backup heat source. But if you're replacing a forced air furnace that feeds an existing ducts the only options are heatpumps that need to have backup heat under 30F. So essentially you're buying 2 furnaces in one which increases the cost. I'm in the PNW where it rarely goes below 10F so the minisplit systems would work fine without backup.
- bluGill 3y ago
  That is what I got: a heatpump good to about 28F, and natural gas backup. I still save a lot of money over the previous 50 year old propane furnace. However so many variables changed at once I can't say if it was worth it.
- sgerenser 3y ago
  There's plenty of central split heat pumps that can function just fine below 30F. Look for ones marked "hyper heat" or advertised for use in cold climates. As long as the heatpump can handle down to 0F or so, then your backup heat only really needs to be an electric resistance heat strip (inefficient, but very cheap) since it would be used so infrequently. OTOH, if you're replacing a gas furnace and already have A/C, then installing a new gas furnace + heat pump shouldn't cost much more than a new gas furnace + new A/C.
  - UncleOxidant 3y ago
    > There's plenty of central split heat pumps that can function just fine below 30F. They likely exist, but none of my local residential HVAC companies carried them.
  - slavik81 3y ago
    Imagine the electrical demand on the grid during a cold snap if everyone switched to heat pumps with resistive heating as a backup. At the time of largest demand, the largest electrical appliance in each home would be reduced to a fraction of its normal efficiency. And all the homes in the region would be experiencing that same thing at the same time. Electric resistive heating is not a suitable backup. If adopted at scale, it would tend to amplify demand spikes when the grid is at its most vulnerable.
yterdy 3y ago
Reminds me of the hissy fit plumbers made over no-flush urinals.
- lazide 3y ago
  Turns out they were right about that one though.
  - g8oz 3y ago
    Are you sure? I still see them around in some local shopping malls.
    - lazide 3y ago
      If your criteria as to if something is actually long term useful/the best tradeoff is if you can find it at your local shopping mall, you might want to rethink that a bit.
  - yterdy 3y ago
    I've never hard that they were. Only that they had the lobbying muscle to mostly get their way.
    - lazide 3y ago
      They have nearly impossible to solve maintenance issues unless you use special chemicals and maintenance procedures, and unless you wash/flush them (and the surroundings) regularly the urine smell is hard to deal with. Since most maintenance staff don’t do the special procedures properly (and barely manage to deal with normal toilets properly!) they were a big headache. [https://www.waterless.com/blog/the-pros-and-cons-of-selecting-waterless-urinals https://www.waterless.com/blog/the-pros-and-cons-of-selectin...]. Everywhere I know of that was using them eventually got rid of them because they weren’t worth it for the small water savings they actually got. Especially since water usage was never anything but a hot button PR topic - there are probably only a handful of places humans habitate that the difference is actually non-negligible when you factor in showers, landscaping, etc.
IndrekR 3y ago
That sounds like a fantastic opportunity for a fresh company to take over the market. Heat as a service. It costs about 2kUSD to get air to air exchange heatpump installed here (minisplit, includes the cost of the pump, EU). Takes approx 3 hours.
- turtlebits 3y ago
  Yes, HVAC contractors in the US massively overcharge. I saved ~ 10k doing the install myself. The equipment is inexpensive, labor can be upwards of 2x equipment cost.
  - aqfamnzc 3y ago
    Do you feel like the number of invisible footguns was manageable? That's always my concern with diy trades stuff, the things that seem fine at install but come back to bite you 6mo later.
    - exhilaration 3y ago
      There's a bunch of DIY heat pump install videos on YouTube, I watched this one recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79C2StyNlBg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79C2StyNlBg Honestly it convinced me that it's beyond my skillset.
    - mauvehaus 3y ago
      In general with contractors, you aren't paying for them to do the simple stuff right. You're paying them to get the one or two weird bits of the job done quickly and efficiently because they've seen something like it before and have the tools and parts on their truck.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        That is why I didn't try to DIY. Sure I'm confident I could get it installed. However I'm sure that I would discover after the old furnace was tore out that I'm missing some part/tool and so off to the store - what would take a pro a single day would take me 3 weekends at best: time that I don't have HVAC.
jxramos 3y ago
what were the justifications, did you ask out of curiosity for them to share what was driving their decisions?
Casteil 3y ago
Price gouging seems like standard practice for HVAC companies. I'd like to replace my 25+ yr old system (gas furnace/AC) with a new gas furnace & heat pump so I can have the option of heating with gas or electricity... but when I ran this by an HVAC technician who was here for a service call, I got the same kind of exorbitant figures thrown at me with the heat pump in the equation. Same technician wanted $750 to replace a control board when my furnace had gone out during a blizzard - I sourced my own & did it myself for <$150.
- pkulak 3y ago
  I got three quotes for a new water heater just this week. One was more than twice the other. I'll see where number three comes in. $1900 for a resistive electric water heater seems steep, but at least there's an argument that it's reasonable. 4 grand is just so out there that I have to believe it was personal somehow.
acchow 3y ago
For heat pumps, you actually want to start at the manufacturers. Their website or customer service will help find servicers in your area.
tilwidnk 3y ago
We've owned three homes, our first one had a heat pump. In Virginia. It generally sucked. It wasn't as good as real A/C in the summer and wasn't as good as gas or electric heat in the winter. I hope to never end up in a place that uses a heat pump.
- ikiris 3y ago
  ... what do you think real ac is?
  - tilwidnk 3y ago
    https://www.thisoldhouse.com/heating-cooling/reviews/heat-pump-vs-ac https://www.thisoldhouse.com/heating-cooling/reviews/heat-pu... "Heat pumps use refrigerant to condition the air in your home by adding or removing heat through thermal exchange." "Air conditioning is a cooling system that circulates cool air into an enclosed space, creating a comfortable atmosphere and improving indoor air quality." "Air conditioners generally last longer than heat pumps because air conditioners only run when the air needs cooling, while heat pumps operate year-round."
    - lkbm 3y ago
      > "Heat pumps use refrigerant to condition the air in your home by adding or removing heat through thermal exchange." This is what air conditioners do, too. > "Air conditioning is a cooling system that circulates cool air into an enclosed space, creating a comfortable atmosphere and improving indoor air quality." This is what heat pumps do, too. These are two sentences that describe the same process, just in different words. The last quote is potentially relevant: a heat pump is an air conditioner that can run in reverse to provide heat in the winter, so you're running it in both situations, and thus for more time.
    - ikiris 3y ago
      My guy, a heat pump is effectively an air conditioner with some added reversing valves.
- 3y ago
ghufran_syed 3y ago
I’m in Northern california, I just got a heat pump installed by these guys: https://www.heliosclimate.io/ https://www.heliosclimate.io/ - a YC company btw, for those who think they just fund consumer apps :) Overall it was a great experience, there were some minor issues immediately after installation that got dealt with quickly and efficiently. I think the list price was similar to what you were quoted, but in northern california (menlo park, peninsula clean energy) there were around $5000 of grants/tax incentives, and an interest free loan from pce for the rest, over 5 years meaning our monthly repayment should be about equal to the reduction in our gas bill. We already had solar and batteries, otherwise I would NOT want to put myself at the mercy of PGE and their crazy electricity rates. But as they reduce the payment rates for solar electricity, the heat pump becomes a better deal.
- JeremyPOsborne 3y ago
  Thank you Ghufran! It was great working with you. -- Jeremy from Helios
- ssuds 3y ago
  Shreyas here, one of the co-founders of Helios. So great to have you as a customer! We're stoked we were able to help you ditch natural gas and decrease your carbon footprint. Menlo park (and much of the peninsula) are such a no brainer for heat pumps. Like you mentioned, ~$5500 in incentives plus interest free financing can net to almost no out-of-pocket costs for most homeowners in San Mateo County. Many contractors aren't as familiar with heat pumps, and their quotes are often so expensive that it doesn't make economic sense to fuel switch. We are focused on offering affordable heat pump installations that have a positive ROI for homeowners.
  - reducesuffering 3y ago
    I couldn't find detailed info on what incentives apply to my county, Alameda. From your site: "In the SF Bay area common incentives are the Federal 25C Tax Credit, Tech Clean CA and Peninsula Clean Energy." I'm assuming Federal 25C and Tech Clean CA apply but Peninsula does not. But I don't know how much these are without further research. It would be nice if you had a tool on your site to determine my net cost with incentives included.
pkulak 3y ago
Tradesfolk are _so_ political, it boggles my mind. I own a house, and need to get quotes for HVAC and plumbing stuff occasionally, and holy shit, I do not look forward to those conversations. Just nodding my head for 15 minutes while they look over my setup ranting about what they heard on cable TV last week. I mean, it's good to force me out of my bubble, but maybe not right into the deep end where, and this is from about 8 hours ago, "heat pumps are no good in the Pacific Northwest because they use more electricity than resistive heating". The PNW: a climate renowned for two things: rain and mild temperatures, where heat pumps are no good. All I can do is nod and say "uh huh".
- mlrtime 3y ago
  I have the same thought when someone gives me an opinion on the car I drive or the food I eat and how I'm killing the earth, meanwhile they take 10x the number of flights I do and have no idea how their food gets to them.
slicktux 3y ago
Any HVAC tech worth their salt should be able to work on a heat pump…
BatFastard 3y ago
I had the same experience, twice as much for a heat pump as a traditional gas/electric AC here in Atlanta GA. Got quotes for multiple companies, then on a whim I talked to the guy at Costco who stands by the door on the way out. Turned out you get a ~15% discount for going thru Costco, so I saved the 1500 bucks and got Costco credit! And they used top of the line equipment!

huytersd 3y ago

If you’re somewhat rural the contractors just don’t have the experience to do it so they try to quote you out of the decision. I had to shop around until I found a contractor that had done this before and I was able to get a whole home heat pump for about the same price as a regular furnace/AC system (because of the rebates).

TheBlight 3y ago
How well do they function? Do they provide nice consistent heat? How's the noise? Sorry to clog up HN with a random request of a product quality review but I'm in the market right now to replace my furnace as well. Thanks.
- demondemidi 3y ago
  Heat pumps need to come with an electric heater because pumps stop working below 30 deg F.
  - headsupernova 3y ago
    This isn't true, the latest models work at temps far below that. There are still thresholds where you'd want another source, but they're very functional even in the upper Midwest.
  - wtallis 3y ago
    They come with an electric heater, but they don't stop working until far below freezing point. It's normal for a heat pump to still be better than pure resistive electric heating even at 10°F.
  - SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
    Ground source heat pumps are available that go down significantly lower than 30F. They are more expensive. Though running the electric wires is also very expensive due to their inefficiency. Typical heat pumps are often better suited for warmer climates because of this It also appears that the tech for the more typical air source heat pumps has improved significantly in recent years which makes it more viable for colder climates
    - virtue3 3y ago
      I believe they run a heat conductive fluid through heat exchange coils in the ground. This allows you to pump heat into the ground during winter and extract said heat (not sure how accurate this is) during the winter.
      - BobaFloutist 3y ago
        You're not storing the heat that's underground, it's just that the ground is a huge thing with massive heat storage capacity that doesn't notice weather as much as above ground does. If above ground ranges from 0-100 degrees F, underground likely ranges from like 64-68 degrees F, which makes it really energetically "cheap" to get to your preferred temperature range, heating to idk 70 at most and cooling to probably not even 65.
  - Fuut 3y ago
    This is just not true at all. Why do you even respond if you don't know enough about heat pumps?
    - bluGill 3y ago
      It is practically true. Sure my heat pump can make heat below 28F - but it was sized for cool my house in summer and so it cannot make enough heat anymore and so I need the backup heat.
    - demondemidi 3y ago
      Oh, sorry, I guess I was brainwashed by the "anti heat pump mafia". I had this conversation with three HVAC installers but according to this thread any HVAC installer that speaks ill of heatpumps is old and stupid. Recently, I stayed at an AirBNB recently that had a heatpump and the temps dropped during the deep freeze and it was running 100% of the time and failing. The AirBNB owner said it was brand new and I would be responsible for excessive electricity use. They didn't charge me. Based on this, I am sooo glad I replaced my dead furnace with gas three years ago and steered clear of heat pumps. But do go on about how I don't know enough.
      - lkbm 3y ago
        Old heat pumps didn't do well in old temperatures. In the 80s and 90s, a heat pump couldn't handle freezing temps. Modern heat pumps do fine well below 0 degrees Celsius. Here's one that's great to -15 C and okay down to -25 C[0]. If you search cold-climate heat pumps, you'll find plenty of information about how modern heat pumps are fine in most the temperatures you'll find in most of the US (including up north). (I have heard that a lot of them are still only available in Europe, but you can definitely find some in the US.) [0] https://carbonswitch.com/best-cold-climate-heat-pump/ https://carbonswitch.com/best-cold-climate-heat-pump/
      - antisthenes 3y ago
        I mean, instead of an argument you responded with some kind of rant about your Airbnb experience. So his point still stands.
  - huytersd 3y ago
    Not true, mine goes down to 23F with negligible decrease in efficiency and still functions after that, but with reduced efficiency.
- gertlex 3y ago
  One anecdote I've seen is that the right way to run them is to maintain a near-steady-state temperature in the house, including overnight. I'm not sure if that's maybe a bit extreme and just how they suggest use to non-savvy home-owners, but it makes sense... They're not going to blast out heat to raise the house temperature 10 degrees in an hour in the morning. Spreading heat-increase over several hours is more feasible. Good insulation presumably helps a bunch, too. For a similar reason, heat pump water heaters tend to have a larger storage tank, as they take longer to heat the water and you want more of a usage buffer.
  - crazygringo 3y ago
    You don't need to run it overnight. But I do set a timer for mine to turn back on an hour before I get up. Because exactly -- it's not blasting hot air, it's merely circulating warm air. An hour beforehand works fine for mine though.
    - huytersd 3y ago
      Do you’ll not run your heat at night when it’s the coldest?
      - crazygringo 3y ago
        Just in the bedroom. Don't need it anywhere else.
bonton89 3y ago
A guy at work doesn't have a heatpump, just some really high efficiency oil boiler. He lives in a rural area and basically had to become an expert on maintaining and repairing it himself because no one seems to know how to service the thing. My father had similar issues with his new boiler although in his case after constant failed repair attempts his local place finally hired some guy who knew what he was doing. There's also rebates on heatpumps around here but local forums seem to suggest that the installers are super backed up and quote "go away" prices. You can't get the rebate unless you go with a state approved installer, so even if you can install it yourself you're out of luck. Seems like they've just raised their prices to compensate for the rebate since they already had to much work.
TuringNYC 3y ago
>> I had to shop around until I found a contractor that had done this before and I was able to get a whole home heat pump for about the same price as a regular furnace/AC system (because of the rebates). Not sure the trouble is over. You are only good until you need servicing, and then you need to shop around again. Servicing is even worse, because it is an acute problem and you are under so much time pressure to solve the issue. Sometimes even the company that sold the unit does not honor their warranty. They shut down. They re-incorporate under a new company, etc.
bluedino 3y ago
> If you’re somewhat rural the contractors just don’t have the experience to do it so they try to quote you out of the decision. Or they're so busy they can pick and choose their jobs. I had a quote to replace a 12 foot section of pipe come in at $700, not even two hours worth of work.
readingnews 3y ago
I thought of that, I am not rural (town is about 300,000 people)... Perhaps that is rural in some areas I guess. The HVAC contractors here are pretty small, maybe they do not want to take the risk. As someone else said, if I had more time, I would have purchased a few DIY split systems... I might do that for AC only, as I did not replace the AC at that time.

jazzyjackson 3y ago

wait I didn't know I could replace my AC with a heat pump, can I replace my noisy AF condenser that's always grinding and hissing or do heat pumps make the same noises

twiceaday 3y ago
No, it's actually worse. The heat pump will make that same compressor noise when cooling in the summer AND heating in the winter.
lolinder 3y ago
A heat pump is just an air conditioner that can be run in reverse. Replacing your air conditioner might help if it makes the noise because it's old and broken, but if you just really dislike the sound of an air conditioner it probably won't help much.
- modeless 3y ago
  Maybe one of the new variable speed ones would help?
- ericd 3y ago
  The variable speed inverter ones tend to be much quieter than the old single-stage ones that most people have, fwiw.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    Ah, right! I actually have a variable stage regular AC unit, so that's not a benefit unique to heat pumps, that's something you can get by replacing your AC unit in general.
SOLAR_FIELDS 3y ago
A heat pump is the same technology as what your condenser is doing, just in reverse. So you could otherwise just think of an air conditioner as one half of the heat pump in this case. So no
3y ago

epistasis 3y ago

Your experience is extremely common. Residential HVAC contractors tend to be extremely conservative, and don't adopt new technologies quickly, or even attempt to understand them. I had some flexibility in time in replacing my 50 year old gas furnace, so I was able to call about 8 contractors before I finally found one who was comfortable with the tech and wanted to do it.

ajross 3y ago
Yeah, it's not an innovative sector, though a lot of the blame belongs with the hardware manufacturers and not the installers. FWIW, the quotes I got for installation weren't that awful. But getting it hooked up to the Nest thermostat turned out to be a 2-day process and require a subcontractor to show up.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  I've installed two Nest thermostats and there's industry standardized color-coding and functionality and Nest conforms to that. (I don't doubt that you had that problem, but I think that speaks more to the incompetence of the original installer than to the complexity of installing a thermostat with a screen.)
  - ajross 3y ago
    I think it was more that the heat pump itself really wanted to be integrated with the Carrier Official Thermostat (which I think might have been an ecobee but can't remember), and the documentation on how to run it in legacy/standard/on-off mode was missing or confusing.
- CharlieDigital 3y ago
  Probably a bit more nuanced than that. A lot of the installers run small businesses. If one of these units goes wrong or if they do the install wrong because it's new to them, then that's lost time and lost revenue rectifying it.
  - 3y ago

Dowwie 3y ago

where are you located? I was quoted 14k to replace a gas furnace for a single family in NJ

ecshafer 3y ago
Unless that's a massive furnace that's robbery. In philly I replaced my furnace for $6k 2 years ago.
- Dowwie 3y ago
  Got two quotes thus far and they're in the same ballpark. I asked for quotes in December 2023, 2 months ago. Bergen County, NJ.
losvedir 3y ago
I had our gas furnace replaced this past November, a 100k BTU Rheem one, for $2,200. This was outside Chicago in Northwest Indiana, though, which is a pretty low cost of living area. I spent some time trying to get a heat pump instead, but no one around here was familiar with them. I worried that if it failed service would be a pain.

UncleOxidant 3y ago

Had exactly the same experience recently. It seems like there are plenty of good mini-split heatpump systems that will work down to 0F (or even lower) without any kind of backup heat source. But if you're replacing a forced air furnace that feeds an existing ducts the only options are heatpumps that need to have backup heat under 30F. So essentially you're buying 2 furnaces in one which increases the cost. I'm in the PNW where it rarely goes below 10F so the minisplit systems would work fine without backup.

bluGill 3y ago
That is what I got: a heatpump good to about 28F, and natural gas backup. I still save a lot of money over the previous 50 year old propane furnace. However so many variables changed at once I can't say if it was worth it.
sgerenser 3y ago
There's plenty of central split heat pumps that can function just fine below 30F. Look for ones marked "hyper heat" or advertised for use in cold climates. As long as the heatpump can handle down to 0F or so, then your backup heat only really needs to be an electric resistance heat strip (inefficient, but very cheap) since it would be used so infrequently. OTOH, if you're replacing a gas furnace and already have A/C, then installing a new gas furnace + heat pump shouldn't cost much more than a new gas furnace + new A/C.
- UncleOxidant 3y ago
  > There's plenty of central split heat pumps that can function just fine below 30F. They likely exist, but none of my local residential HVAC companies carried them.
- slavik81 3y ago
  Imagine the electrical demand on the grid during a cold snap if everyone switched to heat pumps with resistive heating as a backup. At the time of largest demand, the largest electrical appliance in each home would be reduced to a fraction of its normal efficiency. And all the homes in the region would be experiencing that same thing at the same time. Electric resistive heating is not a suitable backup. If adopted at scale, it would tend to amplify demand spikes when the grid is at its most vulnerable.

yterdy 3y ago

Reminds me of the hissy fit plumbers made over no-flush urinals.

lazide 3y ago
Turns out they were right about that one though.
- g8oz 3y ago
  Are you sure? I still see them around in some local shopping malls.
  - lazide 3y ago
    If your criteria as to if something is actually long term useful/the best tradeoff is if you can find it at your local shopping mall, you might want to rethink that a bit.
- yterdy 3y ago
  I've never hard that they were. Only that they had the lobbying muscle to mostly get their way.
  - lazide 3y ago
    They have nearly impossible to solve maintenance issues unless you use special chemicals and maintenance procedures, and unless you wash/flush them (and the surroundings) regularly the urine smell is hard to deal with. Since most maintenance staff don’t do the special procedures properly (and barely manage to deal with normal toilets properly!) they were a big headache. [https://www.waterless.com/blog/the-pros-and-cons-of-selecting-waterless-urinals https://www.waterless.com/blog/the-pros-and-cons-of-selectin...]. Everywhere I know of that was using them eventually got rid of them because they weren’t worth it for the small water savings they actually got. Especially since water usage was never anything but a hot button PR topic - there are probably only a handful of places humans habitate that the difference is actually non-negligible when you factor in showers, landscaping, etc.

IndrekR 3y ago

That sounds like a fantastic opportunity for a fresh company to take over the market. Heat as a service. It costs about 2kUSD to get air to air exchange heatpump installed here (minisplit, includes the cost of the pump, EU). Takes approx 3 hours.

turtlebits 3y ago
Yes, HVAC contractors in the US massively overcharge. I saved ~ 10k doing the install myself. The equipment is inexpensive, labor can be upwards of 2x equipment cost.
- aqfamnzc 3y ago
  Do you feel like the number of invisible footguns was manageable? That's always my concern with diy trades stuff, the things that seem fine at install but come back to bite you 6mo later.
  - exhilaration 3y ago
    There's a bunch of DIY heat pump install videos on YouTube, I watched this one recently: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79C2StyNlBg https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=79C2StyNlBg Honestly it convinced me that it's beyond my skillset.
  - mauvehaus 3y ago
    In general with contractors, you aren't paying for them to do the simple stuff right. You're paying them to get the one or two weird bits of the job done quickly and efficiently because they've seen something like it before and have the tools and parts on their truck.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      That is why I didn't try to DIY. Sure I'm confident I could get it installed. However I'm sure that I would discover after the old furnace was tore out that I'm missing some part/tool and so off to the store - what would take a pro a single day would take me 3 weekends at best: time that I don't have HVAC.

jxramos 3y ago

what were the justifications, did you ask out of curiosity for them to share what was driving their decisions?

Casteil 3y ago

Price gouging seems like standard practice for HVAC companies. I'd like to replace my 25+ yr old system (gas furnace/AC) with a new gas furnace & heat pump so I can have the option of heating with gas or electricity... but when I ran this by an HVAC technician who was here for a service call, I got the same kind of exorbitant figures thrown at me with the heat pump in the equation. Same technician wanted $750 to replace a control board when my furnace had gone out during a blizzard - I sourced my own & did it myself for <$150.

pkulak 3y ago
I got three quotes for a new water heater just this week. One was more than twice the other. I'll see where number three comes in. $1900 for a resistive electric water heater seems steep, but at least there's an argument that it's reasonable. 4 grand is just so out there that I have to believe it was personal somehow.

acchow 3y ago

For heat pumps, you actually want to start at the manufacturers. Their website or customer service will help find servicers in your area.

tilwidnk 3y ago

We've owned three homes, our first one had a heat pump. In Virginia. It generally sucked. It wasn't as good as real A/C in the summer and wasn't as good as gas or electric heat in the winter. I hope to never end up in a place that uses a heat pump.

ikiris 3y ago
... what do you think real ac is?
- tilwidnk 3y ago
  https://www.thisoldhouse.com/heating-cooling/reviews/heat-pump-vs-ac https://www.thisoldhouse.com/heating-cooling/reviews/heat-pu... "Heat pumps use refrigerant to condition the air in your home by adding or removing heat through thermal exchange." "Air conditioning is a cooling system that circulates cool air into an enclosed space, creating a comfortable atmosphere and improving indoor air quality." "Air conditioners generally last longer than heat pumps because air conditioners only run when the air needs cooling, while heat pumps operate year-round."
  - lkbm 3y ago
    > "Heat pumps use refrigerant to condition the air in your home by adding or removing heat through thermal exchange." This is what air conditioners do, too. > "Air conditioning is a cooling system that circulates cool air into an enclosed space, creating a comfortable atmosphere and improving indoor air quality." This is what heat pumps do, too. These are two sentences that describe the same process, just in different words. The last quote is potentially relevant: a heat pump is an air conditioner that can run in reverse to provide heat in the winter, so you're running it in both situations, and thus for more time.
  - ikiris 3y ago
    My guy, a heat pump is effectively an air conditioner with some added reversing valves.
3y ago

ghufran_syed 3y ago

I’m in Northern california, I just got a heat pump installed by these guys: https://www.heliosclimate.io/ https://www.heliosclimate.io/ - a YC company btw, for those who think they just fund consumer apps :) Overall it was a great experience, there were some minor issues immediately after installation that got dealt with quickly and efficiently. I think the list price was similar to what you were quoted, but in northern california (menlo park, peninsula clean energy) there were around $5000 of grants/tax incentives, and an interest free loan from pce for the rest, over 5 years meaning our monthly repayment should be about equal to the reduction in our gas bill. We already had solar and batteries, otherwise I would NOT want to put myself at the mercy of PGE and their crazy electricity rates. But as they reduce the payment rates for solar electricity, the heat pump becomes a better deal.

JeremyPOsborne 3y ago
Thank you Ghufran! It was great working with you. -- Jeremy from Helios
ssuds 3y ago
Shreyas here, one of the co-founders of Helios. So great to have you as a customer! We're stoked we were able to help you ditch natural gas and decrease your carbon footprint. Menlo park (and much of the peninsula) are such a no brainer for heat pumps. Like you mentioned, ~$5500 in incentives plus interest free financing can net to almost no out-of-pocket costs for most homeowners in San Mateo County. Many contractors aren't as familiar with heat pumps, and their quotes are often so expensive that it doesn't make economic sense to fuel switch. We are focused on offering affordable heat pump installations that have a positive ROI for homeowners.
- reducesuffering 3y ago
  I couldn't find detailed info on what incentives apply to my county, Alameda. From your site: "In the SF Bay area common incentives are the Federal 25C Tax Credit, Tech Clean CA and Peninsula Clean Energy." I'm assuming Federal 25C and Tech Clean CA apply but Peninsula does not. But I don't know how much these are without further research. It would be nice if you had a tool on your site to determine my net cost with incentives included.

pkulak 3y ago

Tradesfolk are _so_ political, it boggles my mind. I own a house, and need to get quotes for HVAC and plumbing stuff occasionally, and holy shit, I do not look forward to those conversations. Just nodding my head for 15 minutes while they look over my setup ranting about what they heard on cable TV last week. I mean, it's good to force me out of my bubble, but maybe not right into the deep end where, and this is from about 8 hours ago, "heat pumps are no good in the Pacific Northwest because they use more electricity than resistive heating". The PNW: a climate renowned for two things: rain and mild temperatures, where heat pumps are no good. All I can do is nod and say "uh huh".

mlrtime 3y ago
I have the same thought when someone gives me an opinion on the car I drive or the food I eat and how I'm killing the earth, meanwhile they take 10x the number of flights I do and have no idea how their food gets to them.

slicktux 3y ago

Any HVAC tech worth their salt should be able to work on a heat pump…

BatFastard 3y ago

I had the same experience, twice as much for a heat pump as a traditional gas/electric AC here in Atlanta GA. Got quotes for multiple companies, then on a whim I talked to the guy at Costco who stands by the door on the way out. Turned out you get a ~15% discount for going thru Costco, so I saved the 1500 bucks and got Costco credit! And they used top of the line equipment!