4 ms·

I'm not an expert on building codes but a large difference in North America is there is much more space in general when building new so I don't quite think the

I'm not an expert on building codes but a large difference in North America is there is much more space in general when building new so I don't quite think the argument is valid. Americans simply want a lot more space. If a developer built smaller sized 3 or 4 bedroom apartments they would have trouble selling to the price point they want.

nostrebored 3y ago
Right, but this makes sprawl. There is more space, but how much of it are we going to dedicate to parking, larger units, etc? How tall will we make the building? Things here are really, really bad. Zoning is the only lever we have to fix it.
- engineer_22 3y ago
  Not bad, just different.
  - nostrebored 3y ago
    No, bad and unsustainable. Almost every city in the U.S. is supported by its urban core. The infrastructure cost of handling suburbs is absurd. Increasing sprawl is fiscally irresponsible and most cities are underwater without extra funding as it is.
    - engineer_22 3y ago
      Hiss, meow
spiderxxxx 3y ago
If you look at the 'studio' size comparison, the "American" one has a closet that the others don't have, actually two closets, and some sort of sitting/dining designated area that the others also don't have. Their whole reasoning is that the wall would be <10ft meaning it would be "quite dark". Electric lights exist. This is nonsense.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Geometry means you have to be that wide. Just a double bed with space to move around it takes up that much space. Likewise you don't want the bathroom to be the hall (Sorry you can't get out of the apartment until I'm done on the toilet). Yes dark is not a good argument against this, but it still isn't practical to have apartments that small - it has been done, but all the cases I know of it was out of spite. (someone ended up with a small lot and didn't want to sell)
wolverine876 3y ago
> Americans simply want a lot more space. Americans will pay the most for the smallest spaces, such as in NY.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Where you live is a compromise. Location has always been a big factor. If you need to live in NY then you need to pay NY rents. If you can move to New Jersey then your prices go down - by you have a longer commute. Different people come up with different answers to this compromise. Imagine you went to those people paying high rent for a small place and moved them to a small town in Montana, keeping the same pay. The cost of living makes it possible to own a large house in town near everything there is to do, so would they continue to live in a small space anyway?
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    That misstates the issue in two ways: > If you need to live in NY ... If you can move to New Jersey ... That assumes people live in NY because they must, and move to NJ if they can. IME, it's usually quite the opposite! But of course many do prefer - well, they'd prefer Westchester. :) > The cost of living makes it possible to own a large house in town near everything there is to do, so would they continue to live in a small space anyway? That's true anywhere, including midtown Manhatten. If someone could afford a nice ranch house with a yard there, they'd buy it! :)
    - bluGill 3y ago
      > including midtown Manhatten. If someone could afford a nice ranch house with a yard there, they'd buy it! :) That is the point: people are living in small places in NY not because they prefer small places, but because overall that is the best compromise for their current life situation. Change something about your life situation and the best compromise changes.
      - wolverine876 3y ago
mperham 3y ago
> Americans simply want a lot more space. I'm American and I don't. Stop stereotyping.
- mattbrewsbytes 3y ago
  Its a generalization based on facts about median size. For single family homes in the 1960's it was 1500sqft and in the 2000's its around 2100-2200sqft https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/programs-surveys/ahs/working-papers/Housing-by-Year-Built.pdf https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/programs-surveys/a...
  - mperham 3y ago
    And that growth is due to US cities all jumping on single family zoning as method of segregation, post civil rights. If the only thing you can do with a lot is build a single house, you make it as large as the market will support to maximize sale price. When only rich people can afford houses in a neighborhood, it becomes white only. Also known as gentrification. I live in a wealthy, 99% white zip code and that’s exactly how it happened.
TheChaplain 3y ago
Building codes are much more than you think. At least in Europe there are codes for accessibility, dwelling design, room height, utility rooms, mechanical resistance, stability, hygiene, environment, noise levels, general safety, energy management, sewage, power, even bathrooms must be done by certified people. All those above are just few and general top-hierarchy of a forest of rules. Yes, those are all important and good for you, BUT all that add up to the cost for the actual build. The land itself that is to be developed has to go through a long line of expensive processes, tests and certifications. Investigations to ensure that there is no disturbing bird nesting areas, or too close to small streams that may have rare species. Again, all that is good, but cost and will drive up the price of the final product. I've a relative in construction, and he notes that margins are so small it doesn't make much sense for all that effort when there are other options.

nostrebored 3y ago

Right, but this makes sprawl. There is more space, but how much of it are we going to dedicate to parking, larger units, etc? How tall will we make the building? Things here are really, really bad. Zoning is the only lever we have to fix it.

engineer_22 3y ago
Not bad, just different.
- nostrebored 3y ago
  No, bad and unsustainable. Almost every city in the U.S. is supported by its urban core. The infrastructure cost of handling suburbs is absurd. Increasing sprawl is fiscally irresponsible and most cities are underwater without extra funding as it is.
  - engineer_22 3y ago
    Hiss, meow

spiderxxxx 3y ago

If you look at the 'studio' size comparison, the "American" one has a closet that the others don't have, actually two closets, and some sort of sitting/dining designated area that the others also don't have. Their whole reasoning is that the wall would be <10ft meaning it would be "quite dark". Electric lights exist. This is nonsense.

bluGill 3y ago
Geometry means you have to be that wide. Just a double bed with space to move around it takes up that much space. Likewise you don't want the bathroom to be the hall (Sorry you can't get out of the apartment until I'm done on the toilet). Yes dark is not a good argument against this, but it still isn't practical to have apartments that small - it has been done, but all the cases I know of it was out of spite. (someone ended up with a small lot and didn't want to sell)

wolverine876 3y ago

> Americans simply want a lot more space. Americans will pay the most for the smallest spaces, such as in NY.

bluGill 3y ago
Where you live is a compromise. Location has always been a big factor. If you need to live in NY then you need to pay NY rents. If you can move to New Jersey then your prices go down - by you have a longer commute. Different people come up with different answers to this compromise. Imagine you went to those people paying high rent for a small place and moved them to a small town in Montana, keeping the same pay. The cost of living makes it possible to own a large house in town near everything there is to do, so would they continue to live in a small space anyway?
- wolverine876 3y ago
  That misstates the issue in two ways: > If you need to live in NY ... If you can move to New Jersey ... That assumes people live in NY because they must, and move to NJ if they can. IME, it's usually quite the opposite! But of course many do prefer - well, they'd prefer Westchester. :) > The cost of living makes it possible to own a large house in town near everything there is to do, so would they continue to live in a small space anyway? That's true anywhere, including midtown Manhatten. If someone could afford a nice ranch house with a yard there, they'd buy it! :)
  - bluGill 3y ago
    > including midtown Manhatten. If someone could afford a nice ranch house with a yard there, they'd buy it! :) That is the point: people are living in small places in NY not because they prefer small places, but because overall that is the best compromise for their current life situation. Change something about your life situation and the best compromise changes.
    - wolverine876 3y ago

mperham 3y ago

> Americans simply want a lot more space. I'm American and I don't. Stop stereotyping.

mattbrewsbytes 3y ago
Its a generalization based on facts about median size. For single family homes in the 1960's it was 1500sqft and in the 2000's its around 2100-2200sqft https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/programs-surveys/ahs/working-papers/Housing-by-Year-Built.pdf https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/programs-surveys/a...
- mperham 3y ago
  And that growth is due to US cities all jumping on single family zoning as method of segregation, post civil rights. If the only thing you can do with a lot is build a single house, you make it as large as the market will support to maximize sale price. When only rich people can afford houses in a neighborhood, it becomes white only. Also known as gentrification. I live in a wealthy, 99% white zip code and that’s exactly how it happened.

TheChaplain 3y ago

Building codes are much more than you think. At least in Europe there are codes for accessibility, dwelling design, room height, utility rooms, mechanical resistance, stability, hygiene, environment, noise levels, general safety, energy management, sewage, power, even bathrooms must be done by certified people. All those above are just few and general top-hierarchy of a forest of rules. Yes, those are all important and good for you, BUT all that add up to the cost for the actual build. The land itself that is to be developed has to go through a long line of expensive processes, tests and certifications. Investigations to ensure that there is no disturbing bird nesting areas, or too close to small streams that may have rare species. Again, all that is good, but cost and will drive up the price of the final product. I've a relative in construction, and he notes that margins are so small it doesn't make much sense for all that effort when there are other options.