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I don’t see how AI cameras are a solution to any crime issues in places like tube stations. The staff at these stations know when people are jumping the turnst

I don’t see how AI cameras are a solution to any crime issues in places like tube stations. The staff at these stations know when people are jumping the turnstiles and evading fares. They know if there is a fight. It’s already recorded on classic CCTV (though with shockingly bad cameras if we are to believe recent news reports). The issue is not in my mind the detection of crime (especially petty crime). This may or may not improve the detection of crime, with a cost to civil liberties and loads of false positives. I don’t know if increasing detection of more minor crime is useful if there is not a clear way of being able to respond to the volumes of crime we already know about. You can’t jail every fare jumper or shoplifter in London. It simply isn’t practical. Even if you did jail them, you’d eventually have to let them go, whereafter they very well might reoffend, as they would be more desperate than before their incarceration.

scotchmi_st 3y ago
My wife had her phone stolen recently, in Highbury and Islington tube station. Nothing to be done, by the time she noticed it gone, it was too late. However since then, she's been getting messages from the perps that appears like a message from Apple, with a link that takes you to a surprisingly convincing site, that then asks you to enter your pin. It's clear that not everyone falls for this sort of ploy, but enough do to make it worth the thief's time to steal it, and sell it for parts otherwise. There are a lot of moving parts to this sort of crime- Apple don't make it easy for you to profit from a locked iPhone, and Android probably don't either. Someone able to write and maintain a convincing-looking website and forward recorded data, someone to take the phone, someone to manage the operation etc etc. Finding out who is stealing the phones would be very helpful in stopping this sort of thing from happening, by cracking the organisations involved. I get the privacy arguments, but if this does actually help stop thieves, on balance I'm in favour.
- fakedang 3y ago
  >I get the privacy arguments, but if this does actually help stop thieves, on balance I'm in favour. News check, it doesn't. London Met has faced severe cuts over the past decade, it's focusing the core team on major crimes, while hiring a volunteer force for the petty stuff like these. The volunteer force can't be arsed to fight a fly, much less catch a gang of pickpockets.
  - blipvert 3y ago
    News check, the Met doesn’t police the underground - that’s the job of the British Transport Police, a completely different force.
  - multjoy 3y ago
    >while hiring a volunteer force Nonsense. If you’re talking about specials then they have been kicking about since the late 1800s.
    - fakedang 3y ago
      The proportion of duties allocated to the volunteer force has increased much more than what it used to be back then. I don't mind having the volunteers for duties such as traffic assistance and the like. But right now, it looks like a return to the Bow Street runners era is inevitable.
- jrm4 3y ago
  If the people were collectively serious about stolen cell phones, the only solution that remotely makes sense is to lean on APPLE et al. The things are nearly perfect tracking devices. It's absurd to not understand that Apple et al could easily (from a technical sense) eliminate cell phone theft.
  - nebula8804 3y ago
    Well they are trying arent they? 1. Locking phone with "find my" enabled so they can't be reset without enterring your passcode/password. 2. Pairing components to the phone so the phones physically cant be stripped down and components resold. 3. Recently adding a feature to allow you to require touchid/faceid to wipe the phone to prevent a situation where the phone and pin code/password is stolen. What else should they do?
    - andylynch 3y ago
      Not much, especially since much of this makes repair etc more difficult. Although maybe they could force iPhone in lost mode to loudly and constantly announce they miss their human, like a lost dog?
      - nebula8804 3y ago
        >It's absurd to not understand that Apple et al could easily (from a technical sense) eliminate cell phone theft. I think the option to make the lost iphone make noise is there in the "find my" menu. So if you have another Apple device like a mac, watch, ipad etc. you can locate it using the airtag network (ie. not requiring cell service), have it make noise, or remote wipe it.
    - jrm4 3y ago
      Start with... Once a phone is reported lost or stolen, have it record everything and post that somewhere. To the cops would be nice, but also might be overwhelm them. No problem, make a subreddit or something and post everything there, etc. Now I may be missing something from the above, but whatever I havent thought of, I'm certain Apple could. I'm certain Apple could come up with a protocol that would make a stolen iPhone 100% useless, to the point that it would be a near perfect deterrent and thefts would go to basically zero. But I'm also certain that Apple will not do that because $$$$$.
- pixxel 3y ago
  > I get the privacy arguments, but if this does actually help stop thieves, on balance I'm in favour Or adjust how one carries their phone/belongings in super busy high theft areas. I bet your wife is now going to act accordingly. Better this than offloading awareness to more intrusive government surveillance.
firtoz 3y ago
A lot of crime detection in the UK are done for the statistics, not prevention.
- dylan604 3y ago
  As in, show enough stats that show numbers going up makes the desire for more legislation and civil rights squashing more palatable?
huytersd 3y ago
With enough big brother surveillance you could completely automate it. Recognize people jumping the turnstile and automatically mail out a fine to them with no human in the loop like they do with cars. Now plenty of people are going to challenge it in court but many wont and will probably pay up.
MSFT_Edging 3y ago
Crime always has a direct link to poverty. I don't care what kind of pedantic argument about stealing luxury goods I get in response. Its basically impossible to stop crime as long as poverty allows mental illness, addiction, and disease to go unchecked. The only solution that doesn't improve the poorest's lives materially is just mass imprisonment, camps, basically Nazi style undesirable removal. It's extremely silly and unserious to claim AI could ever "stop crime". Just a grift by those investing wasted hours into LLMs claiming they're magic.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Crime crosses all paths of life. Typically the rich will commit different crimes, but crime crosses all levels of economics. If you are rich it isn't worth stealing a candy bar (but some still do it for the rush), but you get the opportunity to embezzle large sums of money that the poor often don't even have access to (they might or might not if they did)
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  AI surveillance is definitely bad but are you also implying we shouldn't stop or punish crime and instead just focus on solving poverty? Even if all crime is a symptom of poverty surely we should try to stop and punish the crimes while trying to solve poverty.
sandworm101 3y ago
>> I don’t see how AI cameras are a solution to any crime issues in places like tube stations. I doubt this is really about detecting crime. This seems more about manpower and camera/watcher ratios. The machine will identify situations and bring them to the attention of the human, allowing one person to "man" a larger number of cameras. Some airports have a similar system for cameras whereby cameras will automatically pan and zoom towards the source of an issue, saving the time necessary for a human to spot an incident. Some are even tied into ground-mapping radar to identify when aircraft or objects are in places they shouldn't. https://www.vision-systems.com/cameras-accessories/article/16738149/airport-adds-daynight-camera-to-runway-radar https://www.vision-systems.com/cameras-accessories/article/1...
fauigerzigerk 3y ago
I think the endgame is going to be automatic penalties deducted from universal credit or added to payroll tax via the tax code.
nonethewiser 3y ago
This is a great point. I'm not sure about London but in NYC, SF, and many other big cities in the US there just isn't the will to intervene. A strong police presence that intervenes just isn't the goal. I don't really know what goal this furthers.

scotchmi_st 3y ago

My wife had her phone stolen recently, in Highbury and Islington tube station. Nothing to be done, by the time she noticed it gone, it was too late. However since then, she's been getting messages from the perps that appears like a message from Apple, with a link that takes you to a surprisingly convincing site, that then asks you to enter your pin. It's clear that not everyone falls for this sort of ploy, but enough do to make it worth the thief's time to steal it, and sell it for parts otherwise. There are a lot of moving parts to this sort of crime- Apple don't make it easy for you to profit from a locked iPhone, and Android probably don't either. Someone able to write and maintain a convincing-looking website and forward recorded data, someone to take the phone, someone to manage the operation etc etc. Finding out who is stealing the phones would be very helpful in stopping this sort of thing from happening, by cracking the organisations involved. I get the privacy arguments, but if this does actually help stop thieves, on balance I'm in favour.

fakedang 3y ago
>I get the privacy arguments, but if this does actually help stop thieves, on balance I'm in favour. News check, it doesn't. London Met has faced severe cuts over the past decade, it's focusing the core team on major crimes, while hiring a volunteer force for the petty stuff like these. The volunteer force can't be arsed to fight a fly, much less catch a gang of pickpockets.
- blipvert 3y ago
  News check, the Met doesn’t police the underground - that’s the job of the British Transport Police, a completely different force.
- multjoy 3y ago
  >while hiring a volunteer force Nonsense. If you’re talking about specials then they have been kicking about since the late 1800s.
  - fakedang 3y ago
    The proportion of duties allocated to the volunteer force has increased much more than what it used to be back then. I don't mind having the volunteers for duties such as traffic assistance and the like. But right now, it looks like a return to the Bow Street runners era is inevitable.
jrm4 3y ago
If the people were collectively serious about stolen cell phones, the only solution that remotely makes sense is to lean on APPLE et al. The things are nearly perfect tracking devices. It's absurd to not understand that Apple et al could easily (from a technical sense) eliminate cell phone theft.
- nebula8804 3y ago
  Well they are trying arent they? 1. Locking phone with "find my" enabled so they can't be reset without enterring your passcode/password. 2. Pairing components to the phone so the phones physically cant be stripped down and components resold. 3. Recently adding a feature to allow you to require touchid/faceid to wipe the phone to prevent a situation where the phone and pin code/password is stolen. What else should they do?
  - andylynch 3y ago
    Not much, especially since much of this makes repair etc more difficult. Although maybe they could force iPhone in lost mode to loudly and constantly announce they miss their human, like a lost dog?
    - nebula8804 3y ago
      >It's absurd to not understand that Apple et al could easily (from a technical sense) eliminate cell phone theft. I think the option to make the lost iphone make noise is there in the "find my" menu. So if you have another Apple device like a mac, watch, ipad etc. you can locate it using the airtag network (ie. not requiring cell service), have it make noise, or remote wipe it.
  - jrm4 3y ago
    Start with... Once a phone is reported lost or stolen, have it record everything and post that somewhere. To the cops would be nice, but also might be overwhelm them. No problem, make a subreddit or something and post everything there, etc. Now I may be missing something from the above, but whatever I havent thought of, I'm certain Apple could. I'm certain Apple could come up with a protocol that would make a stolen iPhone 100% useless, to the point that it would be a near perfect deterrent and thefts would go to basically zero. But I'm also certain that Apple will not do that because $$$$$.
pixxel 3y ago
> I get the privacy arguments, but if this does actually help stop thieves, on balance I'm in favour Or adjust how one carries their phone/belongings in super busy high theft areas. I bet your wife is now going to act accordingly. Better this than offloading awareness to more intrusive government surveillance.

firtoz 3y ago

A lot of crime detection in the UK are done for the statistics, not prevention.

dylan604 3y ago
As in, show enough stats that show numbers going up makes the desire for more legislation and civil rights squashing more palatable?

huytersd 3y ago

With enough big brother surveillance you could completely automate it. Recognize people jumping the turnstile and automatically mail out a fine to them with no human in the loop like they do with cars. Now plenty of people are going to challenge it in court but many wont and will probably pay up.

MSFT_Edging 3y ago

Crime always has a direct link to poverty. I don't care what kind of pedantic argument about stealing luxury goods I get in response. Its basically impossible to stop crime as long as poverty allows mental illness, addiction, and disease to go unchecked. The only solution that doesn't improve the poorest's lives materially is just mass imprisonment, camps, basically Nazi style undesirable removal. It's extremely silly and unserious to claim AI could ever "stop crime". Just a grift by those investing wasted hours into LLMs claiming they're magic.

bluGill 3y ago
Crime crosses all paths of life. Typically the rich will commit different crimes, but crime crosses all levels of economics. If you are rich it isn't worth stealing a candy bar (but some still do it for the rush), but you get the opportunity to embezzle large sums of money that the poor often don't even have access to (they might or might not if they did)
nonethewiser 3y ago
AI surveillance is definitely bad but are you also implying we shouldn't stop or punish crime and instead just focus on solving poverty? Even if all crime is a symptom of poverty surely we should try to stop and punish the crimes while trying to solve poverty.

sandworm101 3y ago

>> I don’t see how AI cameras are a solution to any crime issues in places like tube stations. I doubt this is really about detecting crime. This seems more about manpower and camera/watcher ratios. The machine will identify situations and bring them to the attention of the human, allowing one person to "man" a larger number of cameras. Some airports have a similar system for cameras whereby cameras will automatically pan and zoom towards the source of an issue, saving the time necessary for a human to spot an incident. Some are even tied into ground-mapping radar to identify when aircraft or objects are in places they shouldn't. https://www.vision-systems.com/cameras-accessories/article/16738149/airport-adds-daynight-camera-to-runway-radar https://www.vision-systems.com/cameras-accessories/article/1...

fauigerzigerk 3y ago

I think the endgame is going to be automatic penalties deducted from universal credit or added to payroll tax via the tax code.

nonethewiser 3y ago

This is a great point. I'm not sure about London but in NYC, SF, and many other big cities in the US there just isn't the will to intervene. A strong police presence that intervenes just isn't the goal. I don't really know what goal this furthers.