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Not a WFH thing. This is a USA thing!! Edit: OP said "Layoffs in the WFH era are weird" Yes they are, but people here don't suddenly go offline quite as weird

Not a WFH thing. This is a USA thing!! Edit: OP said "Layoffs in the WFH era are weird" Yes they are, but people here don't suddenly go offline quite as weird is what I was trying to get at. Here in Sweden if you are FTE there is usually a 1-3 month layoff period (upppsägningstid) where you work and get paid still. At the end of the period you leave. People usually email the team and even the entire company with "hey im leaving here is my info" Now people CAN get fired day of, but that has to be VERY grounded. Again, Not a WFH thing. This is a USA thing!! I notice this time and time again where people complain about IT or WFH, but it's just that you're in the USA, land of the exploited.

lmz 3y ago
But if the company is worried about access can't it just pay the employee the 1-3 months without allowing them to work, even in Sweden?
- Unfrozen0688 3y ago
  I am unsure actually as I am not an employer. I am sure it is possible but probably for sensitive jobs like military or something. Some links if you want to google translate https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/uppsagningstider-om-din-arbetsgivare-sager-upp-dig https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/uppsagningstider-om-din-... There is "duty of loyalty" where you can get sued for leaks etc https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/om-lojalitetsplikt-och-lagen-om-foretagshemligheter https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/om-lojalitetsplikt-och-l...
  - emj 3y ago
    Of course we fire people in Sweden pay them and revoke their access, this is very uncommon I have only seen it once myself. Would like to note that, simply speaking, the rules change the more responsibility you have.
- permalac 3y ago
  I work with identities. I've worked in Spain, France and uk. 99% of lay off are agreed and there is no need for account termination, my current company let's you have your account open 30 days after your last day, so you can move data out to your next company.
  - worthless-trash 3y ago
    Sorry, move data out ? Can you expand on exactly what this means, as I imagine most companies would not want their data moved out to another company.
    - saagarjha 3y ago
      Presumably things like "your credentials to the account that we deposit RSUs into" or "your picture of the beer they served in the cafeteria one time that you liked".
      - notpushkin 3y ago
        Pictures of beer aren't usually moved into your next employment place though, as GP implies, but rather to your own devices.
- MadsRC 3y ago
  Yup, same in Denmark. It’s called “fritstilling” - basically they pay you severance equally to the amount of months you should have gotten advanced notice (3-many months). But there has to be a very good reason. Such as theft, or actual security worries.
  - bsimpson 3y ago
    I believe this is called "garden leave" in the Commonwealth countries.
    - Maxion 3y ago
      Gardening leave is usually a term for a paid non-compete. I.e. you're not allowed to work in the same industry for 6 months, and you're paid salary for those months.
    - com 3y ago
      “Gardening leave” is the polite fiction - much to do in your personal garden, so you are being given exceptional paid time off to deal with it. I have genuinely spent a lot of time once sorting out the vegetable beds during a period of gardening leave. It was VERY therapeutic!
- tomwojcik 3y ago
  Yes, it's normal in IT in Europe to fire someone, revoke their access and still pay them for 1-3 months. On the other hand many IT professionals work b2b so some of the normal employment policies do not apply. On b2b contract the other side usually is obliged to pay for 1 month.
- 4hg4ufxhy 3y ago
  Yes, at least in Finland the penalty for not adhering to the notice periods is full pay during that time. But I never heard of it happening.
caskstrength 3y ago
[flagged]
- imtringued 3y ago
  Because people like you intentionally misinterpret and misrepresent what actually happens in Europe.
- Unfrozen0688 3y ago
  For me, it's the stories of "how IT jobs suck" but it's not that IT jobs suck it is due to where you live. Also the misunderstandings of how things work here. OP said "Layoffs in the WFH era are weird" Yes they are, but people here don't suddenly go offline quite as weird is what I was trying to get at.
- andrewl-hn 3y ago
  Small correction. When you’re getting laid off they pay you for whatever termination time is in contract. Usually it’s something pretty long, like 3 months, with some contracts structured in such a way that this period grows with your tenure at the company. My “notice” period grew from 1 month during first half a year to 3 months afterwards. Once a layoff is declared you get paid for the remainder time plus often a severance package (about 6-12 months of salary in total is customary). You are expected to work these 3 months, though, just like you would work for 3 months (and get paid) if you decide to charge jobs. In practice it means working with people who will leave a company soon is pretty common, having these people as your bosses, as your subordinates, see them at company social gatherings etc etc is all part of working culture. They aren’t perceived as a threat to business or to company morale. Handover of responsibilities, knowledge transfer, hiring or training a replacement: all these processes tend to spread out gradually over months, and the resulting transition is often pretty painless. It’s a stark contrast to US business practice and people working across the ocean or relocating from one continent to the other need time to adapt. Europeans pointing such differences on a website does not necessarily constitute “triggering”. If you knew all of this already, great. But someone reading this thread may learn about it for the first time, and there’s no downsides to sharing the knowledge.
- ithkuil 3y ago
eru 3y ago
When I quit my work at Goldman Sachs (a very American company), they made me work the whole three months of my notice period. (Just as one example. The American economy is a big and diverse place. Though in the interest of full disclosure, I was working for Goldman in Singapore, but they were just following global corporate policy; and our labour laws in Singapore defer more to contracts than the US one. Eg no WARN act here.)
cornel_io 3y ago
When Europeans quit their jobs, they're often required to stay on for 1-3 months, as well, and many if not most employers actually hold employees to that when they get new jobs. In the US you can leave same day, and it's considered rude but meh; 2 weeks is almost always fine unless you're super senior. We also make 2-3x what you do for exactly the same work, sometimes up to 5-10x in tech. There are tradeoffs, but in my experience European workers are more likely to wish that they could come to the US to work than vice versa. When contracting in Europe I've had clauses written into my contracts on multiple occasions that forbid me from disclosing my rate even to the people managing my work, because I was making more in one month than they (as senior project leads) did in a year...
- Symbiote 3y ago
  The employee in Europe usually has a shorter notice period (if they wish to leave) than the employer. Americans make more in highly skilled jobs, and less in low or unskilled jobs. Beyond that I can't generalise, Europe is 44 countries. The Americans I meet were obviously keen to move here.
globalise83 3y ago
Yes, but in cases where a disgruntled employee can do real damage, companies can and do simply ask employees to go on gardening leave with immediate effect, while paying them the rest of their notice period.
- Maxion 3y ago
  Not really in the nordics (europe?)
- pnw 3y ago
  Sweden doesn't need employees to do damage, they outsourced that to eastern Europe. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/01/sweden-scrambles-to-tighten-data-security-as-scandal-claims-two-ministers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/01/sweden-sc...
ponector 3y ago
On the other hand, when we talk about low it salaries it is never a USA thing, but an Europe thing.
- karolist 3y ago
  Not Switzerland, still Europe, still can't fire on the spot during layoffs like in the US. I know it's an exception though.
romanovcode 3y ago
> Here in Sweden if you are FTE there is usually a 1-3 month layoff period (upppsägningstid) where you work and get paid still. At the end of the period you leave. This is only part of the story. They can just pay you the 1-3 months and mark your firing as "effective immediately". Absolutely legal in Sweden, EU and US, and indeed even better for the person fired - 3 months of pay for no work.
the_mitsuhiko 3y ago
> Here in Sweden if you are FTE there is usually a 1-3 month layoff period (upppsägningstid) where you work and get paid still. At the end of the period you leave. That might be very local. There is a long layoff period in Austria too but I don't think any company will let you back into the office. You just get paid without access at home.
rconti 3y ago
This is not a particularly helpful comment. I work at a California-based company, though we have employees all over the world. In our layoffs, typically employees stick around for weeks, months, even 6 months sometimes. How are we supposed to know? Sometimes people put cryptic slack status icons or messages. Sometimes they slack the team or close contacts or something. But in a company with thousands of people, unless an employee sends a email to the entire company, how are you supposed to know? The layoffs happened months ago, why would it occur to me that the person I am working with today will be gone tomorrow, unless they start every conversation with "hey, so I got laid off..." Nobody really wants to relive that trauma over and over again. It's frankly MORE confusing the longer coworkers stick around after the 'event'.
dang 3y ago
(We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39311754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39311754)

lmz 3y ago

But if the company is worried about access can't it just pay the employee the 1-3 months without allowing them to work, even in Sweden?

Unfrozen0688 3y ago
I am unsure actually as I am not an employer. I am sure it is possible but probably for sensitive jobs like military or something. Some links if you want to google translate https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/uppsagningstider-om-din-arbetsgivare-sager-upp-dig https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/uppsagningstider-om-din-... There is "duty of loyalty" where you can get sued for leaks etc https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/om-lojalitetsplikt-och-lagen-om-foretagshemligheter https://www.unionen.se/rad-och-stod/om-lojalitetsplikt-och-l...
- emj 3y ago
  Of course we fire people in Sweden pay them and revoke their access, this is very uncommon I have only seen it once myself. Would like to note that, simply speaking, the rules change the more responsibility you have.
permalac 3y ago
I work with identities. I've worked in Spain, France and uk. 99% of lay off are agreed and there is no need for account termination, my current company let's you have your account open 30 days after your last day, so you can move data out to your next company.
- worthless-trash 3y ago
  Sorry, move data out ? Can you expand on exactly what this means, as I imagine most companies would not want their data moved out to another company.
  - saagarjha 3y ago
    Presumably things like "your credentials to the account that we deposit RSUs into" or "your picture of the beer they served in the cafeteria one time that you liked".
    - notpushkin 3y ago
      Pictures of beer aren't usually moved into your next employment place though, as GP implies, but rather to your own devices.
MadsRC 3y ago
Yup, same in Denmark. It’s called “fritstilling” - basically they pay you severance equally to the amount of months you should have gotten advanced notice (3-many months). But there has to be a very good reason. Such as theft, or actual security worries.
- bsimpson 3y ago
  I believe this is called "garden leave" in the Commonwealth countries.
  - Maxion 3y ago
    Gardening leave is usually a term for a paid non-compete. I.e. you're not allowed to work in the same industry for 6 months, and you're paid salary for those months.
  - com 3y ago
    “Gardening leave” is the polite fiction - much to do in your personal garden, so you are being given exceptional paid time off to deal with it. I have genuinely spent a lot of time once sorting out the vegetable beds during a period of gardening leave. It was VERY therapeutic!
tomwojcik 3y ago
Yes, it's normal in IT in Europe to fire someone, revoke their access and still pay them for 1-3 months. On the other hand many IT professionals work b2b so some of the normal employment policies do not apply. On b2b contract the other side usually is obliged to pay for 1 month.
4hg4ufxhy 3y ago
Yes, at least in Finland the penalty for not adhering to the notice periods is full pay during that time. But I never heard of it happening.

caskstrength 3y ago

[flagged]

imtringued 3y ago
Because people like you intentionally misinterpret and misrepresent what actually happens in Europe.
Unfrozen0688 3y ago
For me, it's the stories of "how IT jobs suck" but it's not that IT jobs suck it is due to where you live. Also the misunderstandings of how things work here. OP said "Layoffs in the WFH era are weird" Yes they are, but people here don't suddenly go offline quite as weird is what I was trying to get at.
andrewl-hn 3y ago
Small correction. When you’re getting laid off they pay you for whatever termination time is in contract. Usually it’s something pretty long, like 3 months, with some contracts structured in such a way that this period grows with your tenure at the company. My “notice” period grew from 1 month during first half a year to 3 months afterwards. Once a layoff is declared you get paid for the remainder time plus often a severance package (about 6-12 months of salary in total is customary). You are expected to work these 3 months, though, just like you would work for 3 months (and get paid) if you decide to charge jobs. In practice it means working with people who will leave a company soon is pretty common, having these people as your bosses, as your subordinates, see them at company social gatherings etc etc is all part of working culture. They aren’t perceived as a threat to business or to company morale. Handover of responsibilities, knowledge transfer, hiring or training a replacement: all these processes tend to spread out gradually over months, and the resulting transition is often pretty painless. It’s a stark contrast to US business practice and people working across the ocean or relocating from one continent to the other need time to adapt. Europeans pointing such differences on a website does not necessarily constitute “triggering”. If you knew all of this already, great. But someone reading this thread may learn about it for the first time, and there’s no downsides to sharing the knowledge.
ithkuil 3y ago

eru 3y ago

When I quit my work at Goldman Sachs (a very American company), they made me work the whole three months of my notice period. (Just as one example. The American economy is a big and diverse place. Though in the interest of full disclosure, I was working for Goldman in Singapore, but they were just following global corporate policy; and our labour laws in Singapore defer more to contracts than the US one. Eg no WARN act here.)

cornel_io 3y ago

When Europeans quit their jobs, they're often required to stay on for 1-3 months, as well, and many if not most employers actually hold employees to that when they get new jobs. In the US you can leave same day, and it's considered rude but meh; 2 weeks is almost always fine unless you're super senior. We also make 2-3x what you do for exactly the same work, sometimes up to 5-10x in tech. There are tradeoffs, but in my experience European workers are more likely to wish that they could come to the US to work than vice versa. When contracting in Europe I've had clauses written into my contracts on multiple occasions that forbid me from disclosing my rate even to the people managing my work, because I was making more in one month than they (as senior project leads) did in a year...

Symbiote 3y ago
The employee in Europe usually has a shorter notice period (if they wish to leave) than the employer. Americans make more in highly skilled jobs, and less in low or unskilled jobs. Beyond that I can't generalise, Europe is 44 countries. The Americans I meet were obviously keen to move here.

globalise83 3y ago

Yes, but in cases where a disgruntled employee can do real damage, companies can and do simply ask employees to go on gardening leave with immediate effect, while paying them the rest of their notice period.

Maxion 3y ago
Not really in the nordics (europe?)
pnw 3y ago
Sweden doesn't need employees to do damage, they outsourced that to eastern Europe. https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/01/sweden-scrambles-to-tighten-data-security-as-scandal-claims-two-ministers https://www.theguardian.com/technology/2017/aug/01/sweden-sc...

ponector 3y ago

On the other hand, when we talk about low it salaries it is never a USA thing, but an Europe thing.

karolist 3y ago
Not Switzerland, still Europe, still can't fire on the spot during layoffs like in the US. I know it's an exception though.

romanovcode 3y ago

> Here in Sweden if you are FTE there is usually a 1-3 month layoff period (upppsägningstid) where you work and get paid still. At the end of the period you leave. This is only part of the story. They can just pay you the 1-3 months and mark your firing as "effective immediately". Absolutely legal in Sweden, EU and US, and indeed even better for the person fired - 3 months of pay for no work.

the_mitsuhiko 3y ago

> Here in Sweden if you are FTE there is usually a 1-3 month layoff period (upppsägningstid) where you work and get paid still. At the end of the period you leave. That might be very local. There is a long layoff period in Austria too but I don't think any company will let you back into the office. You just get paid without access at home.

rconti 3y ago

This is not a particularly helpful comment. I work at a California-based company, though we have employees all over the world. In our layoffs, typically employees stick around for weeks, months, even 6 months sometimes. How are we supposed to know? Sometimes people put cryptic slack status icons or messages. Sometimes they slack the team or close contacts or something. But in a company with thousands of people, unless an employee sends a email to the entire company, how are you supposed to know? The layoffs happened months ago, why would it occur to me that the person I am working with today will be gone tomorrow, unless they start every conversation with "hey, so I got laid off..." Nobody really wants to relive that trauma over and over again. It's frankly MORE confusing the longer coworkers stick around after the 'event'.

dang 3y ago

(We detached this subthread from https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39311754 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39311754)