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The Flipper Zero is a general-purpose tool and STEM educational device. By banning the device, a country would be setting back their workforce of engineers an

• frfl 3y ago
  > By banning the device, a country would be setting back their workforce of engineers and scientists a bit. You're pulling a "Think of the children" here. Rest of your comment is fine, but this first statement doesn't hold water. Any incredibly small number of engineers and scientists would ever use this device. A Raspberry PI, Ardiuno, or other general purpose micro controllers and small form computing devices sure, I could believe that. But some niche device, no. Edit: I wasn't aware of the popularity of the device, as suggested by comment below, when I wrote this
  • happytoexplain 3y ago
    It's not a niche device - it's explosively popular and is obviously serving as a gateway for some young people into engineering and hacking. I couldn't possibly comment on the practical consequences to STEM of banning it. I wouldn't make that argument. But it's silly to claim that it's a "think of the children" argument and nothing more.
    • deleted 3y ago
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  • eindiran 3y ago
    The Flipper Zero is a small-form computing device that is immensely popular, not particularly niche. > Any(sic) incredibly small number of engineers and scientists would ever use this device. I personally know over a dozen people who own them and have tinkered with them in various ways. I managed to "break" my air conditioner unit (permanently setting it to C, not that bad of a "break") with one. Definitely less popular than a Pi or Arduino, but growing in popularity very fast.
    • anonzzzies 3y ago
      > immensely popular Numbers? I see in 2023 they did 80m rev which is what, half a million devices sold worldwide? That’s very niche. % wise close to 0; it’s a geek tool. Nice but not immensely popular.
      • refulgentis 3y ago
        You'd be surprised how much 500K means if you're not Samsung or Apple. There's recent products you'd say were clear hits and sold an order of magnitude more than that, but in actuality, it was exactly 350K.
        • anonzzzies 3y ago
          It’s a great achievement by the company; I am not refuting that. It’s still a niche product no one but a few tech people heard off it or would buy it.
          • spookie 3y ago
            Microsoft only managed to sell 140k Xbox Ones in Japan. Just throwing a comparison.
            • anonzzzies 3y ago
              So xbox one was a small niche in Japan.
              • refulgentis 3y ago
                No, you're still missing it. 500K is a _lot_. Runaway success unless you're: A) Apple B) Samsung The 350K product I'm referring to defined a whole category for years and is universally well-known in tech. To be 100% clear, next time you see "500K sold", your decision tree is: Is it Apple? If yes, can be disagreeable whether it is well-known / successful. Is it Samsung? If yes, can be disagreeable about whether it is well-known / successful. Still here? It's well-known and successful, you'll look silly if you choose to be disagreeable.
  • neilv 3y ago
    RF devices are already ubiquitous, the technology and applications keep growing, and there's emerging opportunities for innovative applications. FWIW, I "funded" the Kickstarter for Flipper Zero because my startup was doing something a little innovative with various kinds of RF tags, to help solve a significant societal problem. (Which, besides what we could've contributed to a country in monetary value of our company, the application domain had significant implications for national economies, as well as for public safety. All things that lawmakers care about, in addition to reducing auto thefts.) We had Android diagnostic software, plus bespoke iOS apps with NFC that I wrote, but a Flipper Zero would've helped me work better and faster at some things.
    • refulgentis 3y ago
      That's nice, thank you for sharing. I agree with OP, it's bad that its being used to try and take down phones on flights and also if it's being used to steal cars.
• frankus 3y ago
  Can a FZ assist in enrolling a new key in the ECU immobilizer’s list of approved keys, or does it just facilitate a relatively quiet way of unlocking the doors? Because honestly there are lots of ways of gaining access to the inside of a vehicle, and if it can’t enroll a new key it’s neither necessary nor sufficient for stealing a vehicle.
  • kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
    This is why keyless fobs are such a bad idea. Transponder keys that have to be in the lock are much more secure as a form of 2FA.
    • Cthulhu_ 3y ago
      A lot of the weak security now being exposed by the Flipper Zero (but they already existed and were actively being exploited) are the result of trading in security for convenience. An example: Contactless payments, I can pay up to €50 by just pressing my bank card against the receiver. Very convenient, but, anyone can hold a receiver up to where I have my card and steal money that way. There's insurances of course, in this case the bank is pretty clear in saying "we know this is a risk and you will be compensated", same as with their apps etc. But it is a tradeoff.
• barbazoo 3y ago
  It’s not the law yet. There must be a way to raise this.
  • tonyarkles 3y ago
    Here's the unfortunate part of how the Canadian government works. Many of our laws (legislation) defer the specific implementation details to regulations. This specific ban likely doesn't need to go through the House of Commons or the Senate and can just be passed as an Order-in-Council that directs ISED (Canadian FCC) and CBSA (Canadian CBP) to modify their regulations to prohibit the device from use and import respectively. So long as there's an existing law in place that defers to regulations for banning specific devices or specific categories of devices, those regulations can be modified without parliamentary oversight. It's the same approach they used for their recent (last 5 years) firearm bans. Whether or not I agree with what they're trying to accomplish with the bans, the ability to arbitrarily ban specific items without meaningful oversight isn't great for democracy.
• virtue3 3y ago
  Nah fuck this. Someone on the plane I was on kept triggering it to do bluetooth attacks ('not your airpods') while I was trying to read (and have my earphones on connected via bluetooth so fuck me right?). There's hacked firmware's you can install [0]. I understand that there are probably tons of other devices like this out there but this one was SO fucking popular and easily accessible. I've already seen this thing abused and used in a super obnoxious way. Frankly I think you should be arrested for having it on in the passenger cabin of an airplane. [0] https://github.com/DarkFlippers/unleashed-firmware https://github.com/DarkFlippers/unleashed-firmware
  • A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
    I am on the fence here. In terms of difficulty, isn't it basically like surfing on someone's unprotected wifi and being surprised that someone can see what you are doing? I am not excusing the behavior, but I also don't see arrest as an appropriate remedy.
    • mistrial9 3y ago
      There are good reasons to ban a device like that on an active passenger flight. A modern airplane relies on a lot of radio frequency communication I think.. a reason for strict ban is - there is no feedback to the person in the passenger area when they stomp on some sensitive channel, or they may notice but find it exhilarating perhaps..
      • A4ET8a8uTh0 3y ago
        That seems reasonable to me, but I don't think that was the OPs proposition ( arrest the user ). Ban on a plane is fairly strong, but a lot more reasonable. At least compared to blank ban on electronics that included gameboys and walkmen, this one makes sense.
        • vlovich123 3y ago
          It’s only facially reasonable to people not familiar enough with RF on a plane. This isn’t in the right radio bands to interfere with anything to do with the safe operation of a plane and it’s using off the shelf radio chips and firmware that would have the appropriate channel switching when they detect a sensitive communication (no different from the stuff the WiFi chip in your laptop and phone are doing when connected to the plane’s WiFi). People were rightly concerned (even if overly conservative and in practice it would be ok) about 3g + planes but since 4g it’s been a solved problem and WiFi has been doing coex with radar channels for forever and if if I recall correctly Bluetooth is too low power to really cause a problem. And to reiterate, flipper zero afaik is using the same off the shelf radio hardware and firmware that would be found in any other product so it wouldn’t be any more dangerous to plane functioning than those products. I really am confused by the FUD being leveled at flipper zero and where it’s coming from.
• 2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
  It's a script kiddie tool that requires zero knowledge of radio theory and programming.
  • fortran77 3y ago
    I've learned a lot from mine, especially how many types of access control RFID work. And I've been working on commercial SDR projects for the past decade.
    • AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
      What kind of projects? I've been looking at moving that direction but most of the fun SDR work is classified stuff and the commercial world seems pretty happy with ancient superhet architectures for the most part.
      • fortran77 3y ago
        Position, navigation, and time from “signals of opportunity” (I.e., existing radio signals that aren’t GPS)
        • AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
          A-PNT type stuff? Can I ask what the commercial application is?
          • fortran77 3y ago
            PNT in GPS-denied areas, and office campus wide time sync.
            • AnarchismIsCool 3y ago
              Very cool, thanks for indulging my curiosity
    • 3y ago
• Ancapistani 3y ago
  > How can you use a Flipper Zero to steal a car? A lot of vehicles - my wife’s 2015 Kia included - have a very flawed implementation of rolling key encryption. Basically, you need to capture three consecutive keys. The receiver is programmed to allow any future key (in case the fob was pressed away from the car), and will happily reset to past keys when you send three consecutive keys in sequence. Ostensibly this is to avoid people’s fobs from becoming “unpaired” somehow if the car receives a future key. You just hit the button a few times and it works. In practice, it’s trivially easy to exploit.
  • galangalalgol 3y ago
    That is pretty terrible! Is there a good resource on how different schemes work? It would be nice to know when shopping.
    • inferiorhuman 3y ago
      There was an interesting presentation at USENIX a while back: https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurity12/sec12-final95.pdf https://www.usenix.org/system/files/conference/usenixsecurit...
    • therein 3y ago
      https://rollingpwn.github.io/rolling-pwn/ https://rollingpwn.github.io/rolling-pwn/ This is a good start.
• ireflect 3y ago
  This is great. I rewrote it in my own words and sent it to my local Canadian MP, as well as Dominic LeBlanc who is the Minister of Public Safety. Here's my template: I am a Canadian citizen in your riding (A1B 2C3) and multiple business owner in the technology sector. As an expert in the field of electronics and information security, I am concerned about the ISED’s initiative to ban Flipper Zero and similar devices, announced at: https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/news/2024/02/federal-action-on-combatting-auto-theft.html https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/news/2024/02/f... The Flipper Zero is a general-purpose tool for engineering and information security research. By banning the device, we will be doing a disservice to our country’s practitioners in these fields, while doing little to thwart car thefts. If possession of a device like Flipper Zero is the enabler for car theft, then it leads me to believe that such cars had negligently insecure encryption from the day they were manufactured, and a recall of such cars would be more appropriate.
  • kstenerud 3y ago
    You may want to add that the average person's phone is many times more powerful and capable than a flipper. The dual use tools that can steal cars are so ubiquitous in society (such as a cheap laptop) that no amount of device banning will make a lick of difference.
  • neilv 3y ago
    Very nice. I like how concisely you hit the points. And also that you can note you're a constituent, tech business owner, and tech expert. If different people want to mix up approaches, and hit various notes, to see what resonates, a couple thoughts (as a tech nerd, not a political communicator): * "Information security research" has different connotations for different people. No matter how professionally you conduct yourself and respect the term, and no matter how much you promote the term positively as professional... if a particular reader considers the term to be a euphemism for behavior they think should be curtailed, and they think that's the only use of FZ, that might hurt your effort. (Unless you can find a way to promote both at the same time, to those readers, without compromising on either more than you want to.) * All the hobbyist experimenting and building things, by kids and adults alike, I consider constructionist "education", which is valued. And I suspect it doesn't hurt to say "STEM", as a keyword for the kinds of jobs and economic development this leads to. (Imagine kids figuring out how modern devices work, which today requires more than just unscrewing an appliance and finding the motor and gears. Or getting interested in the RF that backs much of our global technology infrastructure, and inspired to pursue engineering or science. Or using that knowledge to build things that help get them into universities, or that become a tech startup company.)
• tamimio 3y ago
  > How can you use a Flipper Zero to steal a car? Flipper Zero can't crack hard encryption. It’s impossible, you can’t even use it against garage doors rolling keys without accessing the garage unit and program it like a new remote. The ban has nothing to do with car theft.