5 ms·

The Russian Orthodox Church was completely subverted by the KGB and still carries that legacy and purpose. The church never reformed after the USSR went kaput.

The Russian Orthodox Church was completely subverted by the KGB and still carries that legacy and purpose. The church never reformed after the USSR went kaput. It is used by Putin to spy on and keep people in line. Putin is also a creature of the KGB. As an example of the fascist/statist bent of this organization, check out the artwork in this cathedral: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgQNs5GUyU4&pp=ygUZcnVzc2lhIG1pbGl0YXJ5IGNhdGhlZHJhbA%3D%3D https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgQNs5GUyU4&pp=ygUZcnVzc2lhI...

shakow 3y ago
> The Russian Orthodox Church was completely subverted by the KGB That's true of the post-WWII, post-Stalin USSR. Up until the big changes of 1941, nearly all churches had been closed, publication of religious texts was forbidden and many popes were deported.
exceptione 3y ago
Indeed. And Kiril (patriarch) is just a "former" KGB-agent. Here you can see some Soviet-style photoshopping a $30,000 watch away. https://archive.nytimes.com/thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/russian-church-admits-photo-was-altered-to-hide-patriarchs-watch/ https://archive.nytimes.com/thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0... Conservatism is traditionally a great vector for propagating an extreme agenda. That's also why you nowadays can see the GOP being co opted by the Kremlin, while simultaneously Evangelicals are up in arms behind Trump. Some of these people really think Russia stands for traditional values and demand UA to surrender. Same occured here before WWII, where Hitler was seen as law&order and would finally do something against undesirable elements from society. The playbook of strong-men and their servants are boringly predictable. Lhbti-free zones (Orban, Hungary), racial rage, women needs to embrace traditional role, forbidding books, you name it. None of it contributes to society in any meaningful way, but you can get 50% of the USA behind it. "Nah, he is not really going to do what he says". Yup.
- tomohawk 3y ago
  Propagandists do like to co-opt narratives. It's a natural vector for sympathy. In terms of US politics, this has affected both of the main parties over the years. Singling out the GOP here is itself a false narrative. There are surely people in that party who are co-opted, but that is only part of what's going on. The Dems also have their useful idiots. Speaking of WWII, Joe Kennedy (John's father) was quite useful to the Nazis.
  - exceptione 3y ago
    I hope you will agree that we should not distract ourselves by, I believe not intended, false equivalency and whatabouttisms. The situation is too serious. - We were talking about how conservatism has the weakness that it is particularly prone to siren songs of authoritarians. - There are more bad things happening in the GOP with respect to the democratic constitutional state, but that is hardly a relief. The Dems might have their own idiots, sure, but there is no equivalency here. - Perhaps I should not take the bait, but John Kennedy, the president, was not an anti-semite, unlike his father indeed, who was not president.
    - nradov 3y ago
      Leftist and progressive movements are equally prone to authoritarianism. We should be on guard against extremists on both sides of the political spectrum.
      - exceptione 3y ago
        It is good to be on guard. Extremism is bad for society, be it left or right leaning. But we shouldn't confuse things. With progressiveness we are talking about progress in human and civil rights towards a more free society. It does not mean you have to agree with all policies of them. Authoritarianism is a direct contradiction with progressiveness.
        shakow 3y ago
        > Authoritarianism is a direct contradiction with progressiveness. Ever heard about this Lenin guy?
- DiggyJohnson 3y ago
  > Conservatism is traditionally a great vector for propagating an extreme agenda. Is there any ideology not prone to this? Seems like a needlessly divisive point to include in this analysis. There is also common patterns in the devolution of progressives and revolutionaries. But that's obvious.
  - exceptione 3y ago
    I didn't know it is such a divisive point. You can be perfectly very traditionally religious, but be aware that today's authoritarianism tries to appeal to you. I know first hand. ------- I will add something. Religious tradition can be a great source and motivator to uphold human values. Let's focus on that. I propose we move away from the concept of conservatism, as I get the feeling that for the US audience this is too political. Rather, let us answer the question whether we want to do good for our neighbour.
    - lazide 3y ago
      This whole line of discussion is weird - Stalinism and the USSR was the definition of anti-conservative and authoritarian. Literally ideologically leftist to a polar extreme in many ways. Authoritarians come in all ‘colors’.
      - exceptione 3y ago
        I think the confusion stems from mislabeling and the cultural associations that some people have with it. In the US, the term socialist usually means something bad, while in Europe all modern states are build around some concept of democratic socialism. If I say progressive, some people here might identify that with some mouth foaming marxist that will apologize any non free-market dictator. Label progressive = human rights , not economic policy. Any suggestion for a term that works better in your habitat is welcome!
        lazide 3y ago
        Progressive means things like ‘buy fair trade’ and ‘carbon offsets’ too. And ‘sanction countries with bad human rights’. It’s also economic policy. None of that addresses my points either.
- shakow 3y ago
  > Conservatism is traditionally a great vector for propagating an extreme agenda. Empirically, a lot of ideologies are a great vector for propagating an extreme agenda, from Nazism through conservantism to the Big Leap Forward through progressism and many others in the middle.
  - exceptione 3y ago
    You can't sweep liberalism on the same heap as Nazism. I think that each ideology has it's own weaknesses, but they are not the same. What I learned from this general discussion though is that politics made a honest civil discourse difficult about these kinds of things. Instead, we should talk about personally held values rather than sociological phenomena, as these have turned into political shibboleths.
    - shakow 3y ago
      I'm absolutely not sweeping liberalism with nazism, sorry if it came out this way. My point is that I don't see extremism being more characteristic of conservatism than some other ideologies.

shakow 3y ago

> The Russian Orthodox Church was completely subverted by the KGB That's true of the post-WWII, post-Stalin USSR. Up until the big changes of 1941, nearly all churches had been closed, publication of religious texts was forbidden and many popes were deported.

exceptione 3y ago

Indeed. And Kiril (patriarch) is just a "former" KGB-agent. Here you can see some Soviet-style photoshopping a $30,000 watch away. https://archive.nytimes.com/thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/04/05/russian-church-admits-photo-was-altered-to-hide-patriarchs-watch/ https://archive.nytimes.com/thelede.blogs.nytimes.com/2012/0... Conservatism is traditionally a great vector for propagating an extreme agenda. That's also why you nowadays can see the GOP being co opted by the Kremlin, while simultaneously Evangelicals are up in arms behind Trump. Some of these people really think Russia stands for traditional values and demand UA to surrender. Same occured here before WWII, where Hitler was seen as law&order and would finally do something against undesirable elements from society. The playbook of strong-men and their servants are boringly predictable. Lhbti-free zones (Orban, Hungary), racial rage, women needs to embrace traditional role, forbidding books, you name it. None of it contributes to society in any meaningful way, but you can get 50% of the USA behind it. "Nah, he is not really going to do what he says". Yup.

tomohawk 3y ago
Propagandists do like to co-opt narratives. It's a natural vector for sympathy. In terms of US politics, this has affected both of the main parties over the years. Singling out the GOP here is itself a false narrative. There are surely people in that party who are co-opted, but that is only part of what's going on. The Dems also have their useful idiots. Speaking of WWII, Joe Kennedy (John's father) was quite useful to the Nazis.
- exceptione 3y ago
  I hope you will agree that we should not distract ourselves by, I believe not intended, false equivalency and whatabouttisms. The situation is too serious. - We were talking about how conservatism has the weakness that it is particularly prone to siren songs of authoritarians. - There are more bad things happening in the GOP with respect to the democratic constitutional state, but that is hardly a relief. The Dems might have their own idiots, sure, but there is no equivalency here. - Perhaps I should not take the bait, but John Kennedy, the president, was not an anti-semite, unlike his father indeed, who was not president.
  - nradov 3y ago
    Leftist and progressive movements are equally prone to authoritarianism. We should be on guard against extremists on both sides of the political spectrum.
    - exceptione 3y ago
      It is good to be on guard. Extremism is bad for society, be it left or right leaning. But we shouldn't confuse things. With progressiveness we are talking about progress in human and civil rights towards a more free society. It does not mean you have to agree with all policies of them. Authoritarianism is a direct contradiction with progressiveness.
      - shakow 3y ago
        > Authoritarianism is a direct contradiction with progressiveness. Ever heard about this Lenin guy?
DiggyJohnson 3y ago
> Conservatism is traditionally a great vector for propagating an extreme agenda. Is there any ideology not prone to this? Seems like a needlessly divisive point to include in this analysis. There is also common patterns in the devolution of progressives and revolutionaries. But that's obvious.
- exceptione 3y ago
  I didn't know it is such a divisive point. You can be perfectly very traditionally religious, but be aware that today's authoritarianism tries to appeal to you. I know first hand. ------- I will add something. Religious tradition can be a great source and motivator to uphold human values. Let's focus on that. I propose we move away from the concept of conservatism, as I get the feeling that for the US audience this is too political. Rather, let us answer the question whether we want to do good for our neighbour.
  - lazide 3y ago
    This whole line of discussion is weird - Stalinism and the USSR was the definition of anti-conservative and authoritarian. Literally ideologically leftist to a polar extreme in many ways. Authoritarians come in all ‘colors’.
    - exceptione 3y ago
      I think the confusion stems from mislabeling and the cultural associations that some people have with it. In the US, the term socialist usually means something bad, while in Europe all modern states are build around some concept of democratic socialism. If I say progressive, some people here might identify that with some mouth foaming marxist that will apologize any non free-market dictator. Label progressive = human rights , not economic policy. Any suggestion for a term that works better in your habitat is welcome!
      - lazide 3y ago
        Progressive means things like ‘buy fair trade’ and ‘carbon offsets’ too. And ‘sanction countries with bad human rights’. It’s also economic policy. None of that addresses my points either.
shakow 3y ago
> Conservatism is traditionally a great vector for propagating an extreme agenda. Empirically, a lot of ideologies are a great vector for propagating an extreme agenda, from Nazism through conservantism to the Big Leap Forward through progressism and many others in the middle.
- exceptione 3y ago
  You can't sweep liberalism on the same heap as Nazism. I think that each ideology has it's own weaknesses, but they are not the same. What I learned from this general discussion though is that politics made a honest civil discourse difficult about these kinds of things. Instead, we should talk about personally held values rather than sociological phenomena, as these have turned into political shibboleths.
  - shakow 3y ago
    I'm absolutely not sweeping liberalism with nazism, sorry if it came out this way. My point is that I don't see extremism being more characteristic of conservatism than some other ideologies.