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After all these years I still can't take the term "Jan 6 Insurrection" seriously. Not only did it pose zero threat (no military support, no political support, n

After all these years I still can't take the term "Jan 6 Insurrection" seriously. Not only did it pose zero threat (no military support, no political support, no police support), the most notable act of violence was one of the un-armed "insurrectionists" being fatally shot in the back while climbing through a broken window.

felixgallo 3y ago
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/us/politics/jan-6-capitol-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/us/politics/jan-6-capitol...
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  Posting a NY Times article in response to Jan 6 is like posting a Russia Today article in response to Maidan. Also, I don't have a subscription.
  - harimau777 3y ago
    What sources would you accept?
  - jevoten 3y ago
    I'll summarize the article: Ashli Babbit, the Trump supporter shot by Capitol police. Kevin Greeson, the Trump supporter that died of a heart attack due to natural causes during Jan 6. Rosanne Boyland, the Trump supporter that "appeared to have been crushed in a stampede of fellow rioters" (more accurately, was claimed to have been crushed, by prosecutors), actually died due to an amphetamine overdose. No crushing/trampling injuries are mentioned. Benjamin Philips, the founder of a pro-Trump website called Trumparoo, died of a stroke. Officer Brian D. Sicknick died of "multiple strokes that occurred hours after [his] confrontation with the mob. The medical examiner added, however, that “all that transpired played a role in his condition." What the NYTimes omits from this article, but is found in the NYTimes article they cite, is: "an autopsy found no evidence that Officer Sicknick had an allergic reaction to chemicals or any internal or external injuries, the medical examiner, Dr. Francisco J. Diaz, told The Washington Post" Officer Jeffrey Smith of the Metropolitan Police Department killed himself after the attack. Officer Howard S. Liebengood of the Capitol Police also died by suicide four days afterward. So precisely zero deaths caused by the Jan 6 rioters. Keep this in mind when you see the riot called "deadly". https://www.city-journal.org/insurrections-and-double-standards https://www.city-journal.org/insurrections-and-double-standa... covers the hypocrisy in greater detail.
    - felixgallo 3y ago
      man it's fun to minimize stuff, isn't it? Here, watch this and then soberly reflect whether or not you think violence occurred. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmtL27dqz6w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmtL27dqz6w
      - jevoten 3y ago
        I already thought violence occurred before seeing that video. I even thought the shooting of Babbitt was justified - a trespasser ignoring warnings and directions to leave can generally be assumed to be a threat. What I was responding to is the frequent, deceitful, and hypocritical characterization of the riot as "deadly". Correcting willful lies about something, correcting its severity downwards, is not equivalent to saying it was good or peaceful. But it's a common tactic of people trying to demonize something - any claim of "it wasn't that bad" is met with "oh so you think it was good??" It's a basic false binary. To answer your question, no, it's not fun. But when minimizing stuff brings it closer to the truth, it is necessary.
        felixgallo 3y ago
        I guess I don't understand how a bunch of dead people resulting from the insurrection can be classified as anything other than dead. In what way do they not count? Does it excuse anything or make it ok if we parsed 'deadly' so narrowly as to not include the suicides and strokes? Fundamentally you & yours don't want to say 'deadly' because it sounds bad. Guess what, it is! You own that.
        jevoten 3y ago
        Using "deadly" so broadly that a heart-attack at a water-park makes the water-park "deadly", makes the term lose all meaning. Of course this wordplay is not applied evenly to all movements.
        felixgallo 3y ago
denkmoon 3y ago
No police support besides all the off duty coppers that showed up
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  Off duty police officers? OK I'm wrong it was practically Bastille. They were moments away from making it to the Rotunda, and at that point they could have immediately started legislating and the US as we know it would have ended. Thank God the USG was able to hang on by a thread in that brutal Civil War between obese off duty-cops VS obese on-duty cops.
germinalphrase 3y ago
Babbit was shot by Capital Police in the left, front shoulder attempting to climb through the broken window of a barricaded door.
- SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
  With police standing right next to her. Literally inches, she was unarmed and not given a warning that anyone in the video can see or hear. She should not have been doing that, but… it sure is interesting how some people celebrate an unarmed person being shot by police because she supported “the other side”.
  - germinalphrase 3y ago
    I’m not arguing about whether or not the shooting was justified. I’m merely pointing out that she wasn’t shot in the back as you initially stated.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Remember that these are likely same people who supported BLM a clear terrorist organization linked to lot more deaths and property damage. Which is extremely widely known for using violence for political goals.
  - euroderf 3y ago
    Has anyone read anything about the immediate impact of that particular use of firearms ? What it did (or did not) do to the atmosphere, to the tactical situation ? Can it be argued that it "turned the tide" or that it "sapped morale" ? I'm just wondering if maybe making an example of someone had a great effect. Or did not.
    - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
      I question the idea of “making an example of someone” to actually mean a capital police officer murdering an unarmed woman as any form of acceptable.
phailhaus 3y ago
140+ police officers injured, according to the Justice Department. [1] One direct death, four suicides. And wow, you cannot honestly call what Ashli Babbitt did "climbing through broken window". She was warned, and she tried to break through a barricaded door to where members of Congress were sheltered. She was shot in the front. We literally have the footage this [2]. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/politics/january-6-prosecutions-justice-department/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/politics/january-6-prosecutio... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQaeg1d82Lo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQaeg1d82Lo
- walthamstow 3y ago
  Not to mention the police suicides after. At least two I read about, I think more.
kasey_junk 3y ago
Would you consider Frie’s rebellion an insurrection? What about a rebellion? Just want to calibrate your definition.
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  I see Jan 6 as something much more like the Sunflower movement in Taiwan, where protestors (or alternately rioting insurrectionists) actually occupied the chambers of the Taiwans unicameral legislature. No one was shot or skilled, despite a window being smashed (!!!). They were slowly evicted in 10 hours by riot police. Fries Rebellion actually involved a trained militia, seems like a different category of event.
  - kasey_junk 3y ago
    The oath keepers trials (and to a lessor extent the proud boys) document armed and trained collective citizens preparing for and participating in militia like activities on Jan 6. No one was shot or killed in Fries rebellion. Yet members were convicted and sentenced to hanging (though presidential pardon prevented that from happening). Despite all that American school children learn about Fries as a foundational rebellion and an example of the difference between a strong federal government and the articles based weak one. That is to say, every one can decide their own definitions but by historical standards Jan 6 was at least in the same league as other historical insurrections.
    - LAC-Tech 3y ago
      You raise an interesting point. It could just be - to my ears and sensibilities - that Americans have a very low bar for what they call an insurrection or rebellion.
dashundchen 3y ago
Enough rewriting history that January 6th was some sort of peaceful protest. No political support except coordination between the Trump administration and the convicted leaders, dozens of these them, charged with seditious conspiracy of both the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, key planners behind the January 6th insurrection. No political support except the march on the capitol beginning with Trump saying ""We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore," before telling his supporters to march to the capitol. The same crowd not standing down until Trump told them to "Go home, we love you". No political support except some Republican members of Congress leading riot participants through the capitol in the days before the event. An event that was literally designed in adanvce to pressure Congress and the Vice President with the threat of violence (gallows and a crowd chanting "Hang Mike Pence") into rejecting legitimate election results and accepting slates of false electors. A crowd running through the Capitol chanting "where are you Nancy?" - echoed in an attack on her husband Paul Pelosi not long after. An event that was proceeded by pipe bombs planted at the GOP and Democratic headquarters. An event that involved the beating of Capitol police officers to force their way into the inner chambers of Congress. And you're lying about insurrectionist Ashlii Babbit. She was not shot in the back, she was forcing herself into a shattered window, into a hallway where Congress was evacuating, along with other rioters. Tell me, what was the end game of the rioters there? What do you think would have happened had they managed to get into the chamber while Congress was still present?
- notbeuller 3y ago
  This reminds me of the trump lawyer who’s defense was “no reasonable person could’ve believed what I was saying”. Was it only an insurrection if they succeeded?
notbeuller 3y ago
Just because they were incompetent doesn’t mean they weren’t criminal.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
deleted 3y ago
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reducesuffering 3y ago
Why don't you take it from a pro-Trump Republican Senator from Georgia who was visibly rattled after she feared for her life that day: "When I arrived in Washington this morning, I fully intended to object to the certification of the electoral votes. However, the events that have transpired today have forced me to reconsider, and I cannot in good conscience object to the certification of these electors. The violence, and lawlessness, and siege of the halls of Congress are abhorrent and stand as a direct attack on the very institution my objection was intended to protect, the sanctity of the American democratic process." What's sad is this hypocrite is still campaigning for a Trump presidency in 2024... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNATCaIQO6s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNATCaIQO6s
- LAC-Tech 3y ago
  This isn't some "pro-trump" thing. It is the idea that people think they were anywhere close to a regime change. It would be funny if it wasn't so contemptible. As for the so called leaders in the building that day, I have zero respect for anyone who has to cower from their own citizens. Any leader worth his salt would have stood on a soap box and addressed the crowd. But the western world no longer has leaders. It has teleprompt readers, and lobbyist controlled puppets.

felixgallo 3y ago

https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/us/politics/jan-6-capitol-deaths.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/01/05/us/politics/jan-6-capitol...

LAC-Tech 3y ago
Posting a NY Times article in response to Jan 6 is like posting a Russia Today article in response to Maidan. Also, I don't have a subscription.
- harimau777 3y ago
  What sources would you accept?
- jevoten 3y ago
  I'll summarize the article: Ashli Babbit, the Trump supporter shot by Capitol police. Kevin Greeson, the Trump supporter that died of a heart attack due to natural causes during Jan 6. Rosanne Boyland, the Trump supporter that "appeared to have been crushed in a stampede of fellow rioters" (more accurately, was claimed to have been crushed, by prosecutors), actually died due to an amphetamine overdose. No crushing/trampling injuries are mentioned. Benjamin Philips, the founder of a pro-Trump website called Trumparoo, died of a stroke. Officer Brian D. Sicknick died of "multiple strokes that occurred hours after [his] confrontation with the mob. The medical examiner added, however, that “all that transpired played a role in his condition." What the NYTimes omits from this article, but is found in the NYTimes article they cite, is: "an autopsy found no evidence that Officer Sicknick had an allergic reaction to chemicals or any internal or external injuries, the medical examiner, Dr. Francisco J. Diaz, told The Washington Post" Officer Jeffrey Smith of the Metropolitan Police Department killed himself after the attack. Officer Howard S. Liebengood of the Capitol Police also died by suicide four days afterward. So precisely zero deaths caused by the Jan 6 rioters. Keep this in mind when you see the riot called "deadly". https://www.city-journal.org/insurrections-and-double-standards https://www.city-journal.org/insurrections-and-double-standa... covers the hypocrisy in greater detail.
  - felixgallo 3y ago
    man it's fun to minimize stuff, isn't it? Here, watch this and then soberly reflect whether or not you think violence occurred. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmtL27dqz6w https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bmtL27dqz6w
    - jevoten 3y ago
      I already thought violence occurred before seeing that video. I even thought the shooting of Babbitt was justified - a trespasser ignoring warnings and directions to leave can generally be assumed to be a threat. What I was responding to is the frequent, deceitful, and hypocritical characterization of the riot as "deadly". Correcting willful lies about something, correcting its severity downwards, is not equivalent to saying it was good or peaceful. But it's a common tactic of people trying to demonize something - any claim of "it wasn't that bad" is met with "oh so you think it was good??" It's a basic false binary. To answer your question, no, it's not fun. But when minimizing stuff brings it closer to the truth, it is necessary.
      - felixgallo 3y ago
        I guess I don't understand how a bunch of dead people resulting from the insurrection can be classified as anything other than dead. In what way do they not count? Does it excuse anything or make it ok if we parsed 'deadly' so narrowly as to not include the suicides and strokes? Fundamentally you & yours don't want to say 'deadly' because it sounds bad. Guess what, it is! You own that.
        jevoten 3y ago
        Using "deadly" so broadly that a heart-attack at a water-park makes the water-park "deadly", makes the term lose all meaning. Of course this wordplay is not applied evenly to all movements.
        felixgallo 3y ago

denkmoon 3y ago

No police support besides all the off duty coppers that showed up

LAC-Tech 3y ago
Off duty police officers? OK I'm wrong it was practically Bastille. They were moments away from making it to the Rotunda, and at that point they could have immediately started legislating and the US as we know it would have ended. Thank God the USG was able to hang on by a thread in that brutal Civil War between obese off duty-cops VS obese on-duty cops.

germinalphrase 3y ago

Babbit was shot by Capital Police in the left, front shoulder attempting to climb through the broken window of a barricaded door.

SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
With police standing right next to her. Literally inches, she was unarmed and not given a warning that anyone in the video can see or hear. She should not have been doing that, but… it sure is interesting how some people celebrate an unarmed person being shot by police because she supported “the other side”.
- germinalphrase 3y ago
  I’m not arguing about whether or not the shooting was justified. I’m merely pointing out that she wasn’t shot in the back as you initially stated.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Remember that these are likely same people who supported BLM a clear terrorist organization linked to lot more deaths and property damage. Which is extremely widely known for using violence for political goals.
- euroderf 3y ago
  Has anyone read anything about the immediate impact of that particular use of firearms ? What it did (or did not) do to the atmosphere, to the tactical situation ? Can it be argued that it "turned the tide" or that it "sapped morale" ? I'm just wondering if maybe making an example of someone had a great effect. Or did not.
  - SV_BubbleTime 3y ago
    I question the idea of “making an example of someone” to actually mean a capital police officer murdering an unarmed woman as any form of acceptable.

phailhaus 3y ago

140+ police officers injured, according to the Justice Department. [1] One direct death, four suicides. And wow, you cannot honestly call what Ashli Babbitt did "climbing through broken window". She was warned, and she tried to break through a barricaded door to where members of Congress were sheltered. She was shot in the front. We literally have the footage this [2]. [1] https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/politics/january-6-prosecutions-justice-department/index.html https://www.cnn.com/2024/01/04/politics/january-6-prosecutio... [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQaeg1d82Lo https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZQaeg1d82Lo

walthamstow 3y ago
Not to mention the police suicides after. At least two I read about, I think more.

kasey_junk 3y ago

Would you consider Frie’s rebellion an insurrection? What about a rebellion? Just want to calibrate your definition.

LAC-Tech 3y ago
I see Jan 6 as something much more like the Sunflower movement in Taiwan, where protestors (or alternately rioting insurrectionists) actually occupied the chambers of the Taiwans unicameral legislature. No one was shot or skilled, despite a window being smashed (!!!). They were slowly evicted in 10 hours by riot police. Fries Rebellion actually involved a trained militia, seems like a different category of event.
- kasey_junk 3y ago
  The oath keepers trials (and to a lessor extent the proud boys) document armed and trained collective citizens preparing for and participating in militia like activities on Jan 6. No one was shot or killed in Fries rebellion. Yet members were convicted and sentenced to hanging (though presidential pardon prevented that from happening). Despite all that American school children learn about Fries as a foundational rebellion and an example of the difference between a strong federal government and the articles based weak one. That is to say, every one can decide their own definitions but by historical standards Jan 6 was at least in the same league as other historical insurrections.
  - LAC-Tech 3y ago
    You raise an interesting point. It could just be - to my ears and sensibilities - that Americans have a very low bar for what they call an insurrection or rebellion.

dashundchen 3y ago

Enough rewriting history that January 6th was some sort of peaceful protest. No political support except coordination between the Trump administration and the convicted leaders, dozens of these them, charged with seditious conspiracy of both the Proud Boys and Oath Keepers, key planners behind the January 6th insurrection. No political support except the march on the capitol beginning with Trump saying ""We fight like hell. And if you don't fight like hell, you're not going to have a country anymore," before telling his supporters to march to the capitol. The same crowd not standing down until Trump told them to "Go home, we love you". No political support except some Republican members of Congress leading riot participants through the capitol in the days before the event. An event that was literally designed in adanvce to pressure Congress and the Vice President with the threat of violence (gallows and a crowd chanting "Hang Mike Pence") into rejecting legitimate election results and accepting slates of false electors. A crowd running through the Capitol chanting "where are you Nancy?" - echoed in an attack on her husband Paul Pelosi not long after. An event that was proceeded by pipe bombs planted at the GOP and Democratic headquarters. An event that involved the beating of Capitol police officers to force their way into the inner chambers of Congress. And you're lying about insurrectionist Ashlii Babbit. She was not shot in the back, she was forcing herself into a shattered window, into a hallway where Congress was evacuating, along with other rioters. Tell me, what was the end game of the rioters there? What do you think would have happened had they managed to get into the chamber while Congress was still present?

notbeuller 3y ago
This reminds me of the trump lawyer who’s defense was “no reasonable person could’ve believed what I was saying”. Was it only an insurrection if they succeeded?

notbeuller 3y ago

Just because they were incompetent doesn’t mean they weren’t criminal.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

reducesuffering 3y ago

Why don't you take it from a pro-Trump Republican Senator from Georgia who was visibly rattled after she feared for her life that day: "When I arrived in Washington this morning, I fully intended to object to the certification of the electoral votes. However, the events that have transpired today have forced me to reconsider, and I cannot in good conscience object to the certification of these electors. The violence, and lawlessness, and siege of the halls of Congress are abhorrent and stand as a direct attack on the very institution my objection was intended to protect, the sanctity of the American democratic process." What's sad is this hypocrite is still campaigning for a Trump presidency in 2024... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNATCaIQO6s https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNATCaIQO6s

LAC-Tech 3y ago
This isn't some "pro-trump" thing. It is the idea that people think they were anywhere close to a regime change. It would be funny if it wasn't so contemptible. As for the so called leaders in the building that day, I have zero respect for anyone who has to cower from their own citizens. Any leader worth his salt would have stood on a soap box and addressed the crowd. But the western world no longer has leaders. It has teleprompt readers, and lobbyist controlled puppets.