8 ms·
I looked up the cited street in street view- there are stop signs in all 4 directions. I look forward to the full accident report, but from the evidence availab
by topkai22 3y ago
I looked up the cited street in street view- there are stop signs in all 4 directions. I look forward to the full accident report, but from the evidence available it sounds like the cyclist didn’t stop at the sign appropriately.
- mvdtnz 3y agoAre you implying that we shouldn't be concerned about automated vehicles hitting cyclists if the cyclist wasn't following the lawn to the letter?
- TulliusCicero 3y agoAccording to the Waymo description, the cyclist was behind a truck, and not visible to the Waymo car. If that's true, then a human driver likely would've done the same thing: take its turn at the stop sign.
- readthenotes1 3y agoIn most of my defensive driving classes, they tell me that if I can't see it, that means there's probably a car there. So a safe human driver would not have entered the intersection while the truck was obstructing vision. That may have pissed off the people behind me, but at least I wouldn't be turning while blind.
- pavon 3y agoIf Waymo's description was accurate it wasn't blind when they entered the intersection. Waymo and the truck stopped at a 4-way intersection traveling opposite directions. Both entered the intersection going straight. In the meanwhile the bicycle entered from the cross street behind the truck, himself blind to what was occurring in the intersection. We'll have to wait for more information to see if that description is accurate, but the car's action was a legal and safe thing to do based on the description given. > but at least I wouldn't be turning while blind. There is nothing in the article suggesting that the waymo was turning. Edit: Nevermind I was visualizing the direction of cross traffic incorrectly. The cyclist's lane would have been to the left and closest to the Waymo, which means that the truck must have already been in the intersection when the Waymo started moving if it was obscuring the bike. So either the Waymo got to the intersection later than the black truck and tried to sneak in a crossing, or they both got there at the same time but the Waymo came to a complete stop and then proceeded while the truck performed a rolling stop, or something similar. That's a much fuzzier situation and will depend a lot more on details not being shared.
- mlyle 3y agoThe cyclist and truck were turning.
- anArbitraryOne 3y ago[flagged]
- kbar13 3y agoi think cyclists should have equal share of the road and should be protected but for whatever reason cyclists in SF seem to think the rules don't apply to only them and will get militant if you breath the wrong way.
- anArbitraryOne 3y agoYeah I cycled frequently there for 5 years and always wondered what was wrong with that faction
- babl-yc 3y agoAs someone who bikes on 17th street regularly, cyclists rarely stop completely. Most treat it as a yield (myself included) because it's a pain to start+stop at every stop sign. But it's on the rider to make sure you're on the same page as the other drivers at the intersection, which some bikers don't and just blow through it without checking.
- EchoAce 3y agoSame, I take the wiggle all the time and definitely bully cars into letting me keep going :/
- blastro 3y agoIt's just what's done
- nerdponx 3y agoHarder to do when the driver of the vehicle is not a human being you can make eye contact with, and the human operator isn't interested in maintaining safe and attentive authority over the vehicle that they are responsible for.
- undersuit 3y agoI feel like I'm the only person in my town without tinted windows. I never see other drivers faes whether I'm driving, biking, or walking.
- Phrodo_00 3y agoCyclists can treat Stop signs as Yield signs in California.
- bagels 3y agoNot legally. There was a failed push for this to become law in the past.
- Phrodo_00 3y agohuh I guess the Internet lied to me https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/california-stop-bicyclists-yield-signs-ab-122/ https://www.cbsnews.com/sanfrancisco/news/california-stop-bi...
- bagels 3y agoNo lies in the article. "The bill now heads to Governor Newsom's desk" ... where it was vetoed, sadly.
- stronglikedan 3y ago> where it was vetoed, sadly Sounds like the gov did the right thing. Cyclists shouldn't get special privileges. They're operating a vehicle on the roadway just like everyone else. Drivers of other types of vehicles shouldn't also have to remember special rules just for cyclists.
- standardUser 3y ago> Drivers of other types of vehicles shouldn't also have to remember special rules just for cyclists. Drivers of any vehicle should learn all of the rules they need to drive safely and legally. It's not like there's a hundred different types of vehicles on the road. There's some special rules for trucks and motorcycles and bicycles and that's about it. Plus, travel by bicycle is a net positive for society and I strongly support incentivizing it, including through preferential laws (even though I almost never do it myself).
- soraki_soladead 3y agoCyclists do this all the time in SF. Afaik an "Idaho stop" is not legal here, despite it being common and often unsafe for obvious reasons.
- purplejacket 3y agoI've always heard it called a "California stop."
- lmm 3y agoRolling through stop signs while cycling is generally appropriate (and is the law in more enlightened places). In California it may be illegal, but so is a car exceeding the speed limit, and few would excuse Waymo for hitting one of those.
- genocidicbunny 3y agoOnly if you have right of way. You still treat it as a yield, which means if you don't have a right of way, you stop completely.
- dmix 3y agoRolling is usually slow enough to stop on a dime from my experience. The problem is cyclists who continue at full speed and then decide to react last second.
- genocidicbunny 3y agoAnd I am willing to concede that on a bike, as long as you are just slow rolling and not impinging on the right of way such that it confuses other drivers, it's fine. But I have also seen plenty of cyclists who slow roll into the middle of the lane and then act indignant when they get honked at for blocking traffic; At that point, there's very little difference from having just blown through the intersection at full speed.
- dmix 3y agoYes there is a hostility between drivers and bikers and bikers and cars, where they both build up resentment and settled for this hostile middle ground where they both treat the others poorly. Not to mention plenty of people in both are just dumb or ignorant of their surroundings
- ExoticPearTree 3y agoJust to nitpick a little, let's use the word cyclists, not bikers. I feel that bikers actually obey traffic signs more than cyclists do.
- depsypher 3y agoCyclists are far from the only ones who don't stop at stop signs appropriately. Stand on a street corner sometime and count the cars that come to a full stop. I'd be shocked if you find more than 20% do. Which is all well and good as far as I'm concerned as long as people are paying attention and it doesn't cause an accident. But if cars that take no physical effort of the driver to get moving again aren't expected to come to a full stop, it seems unfair to expect that of bikes. Of course if you blow through an intersection full speed without looking all bets are off and you probably get what you deserve, but I chafe at the bar being set at a "full stop or it was your fault" way of thinking, especially when the cyclist has so much more to lose.
- hot_gril 3y agoThe more important thing is yielding. I've very rarely seen a car fail to yield at a stop sign, but people on bikes or e-scooters do it all the time. They even hit peds sometimes.
- girvo 3y ago> there are stop signs in all 4 directions This is a complete aside, but woah, is this common in SF? They simply aren't used here where I am (roundabouts are used instead) Like they're uncommon enough that theres a news article on it in a different state: https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/fourway-stop-sign-stumps-wa-motorists-brings-traffic-to-a-standstill/news-story/1ef6f0332c199c409a454acf2de9ebe7 https://www.news.com.au/technology/innovation/motoring/fourw... A four way stop sign seems like an absolute downgrade compared to a roundabout, but thats my local bias showing.
- School-Cotton 3y agoRoundabouts are rare in the US. Four-way stops are far more common. If the authorities find a particular one to be too dangerous, they would normally install traffic lights rather than replace it with a roundabout.
- girvo 3y agoFascinating. I wonder what the cultural difference is that caused us to go in different directions on that?
- hot_gril 3y agoI like roundabouts, but don't they require more space?
- lozenge 3y agoNo, you can also have a mini roundabout, which is a white circle painted on the road. Maybe slightly raised but with no kerb so you can just drive over it. Yield to anybody in the junction and yield to the right (we drive on the left). Very common in the UK instead of stop signs at intersections. Stop signs are only in rare places where a hedge or other environment prevents you from being able to see and yield to approaching traffic while approaching the junction. Even in that case there would never be a four way stop.
- 3y ago
- athrun 3y agoLooking at the intersection [1], what a badly designed mess it is! You have 2 bike lanes disappearing into the intersection without any sort of protection. Cars can be parked right up to the ped crossings, potentially obscuring what is happening. Looks like a death trap to me. At a minimum, raising the crossings so that cars have to slow down, and having no parking zones in front the crossings would improve the situation by a lot. Humans make mistakes all the time, intersections should be designed to accommodate that. [1] https://maps.app.goo.gl/KUka4HGt5AsVxFjo7 https://maps.app.goo.gl/KUka4HGt5AsVxFjo7
- rahimnathwani 3y ago> Cars can be parked right up to the ped crossings, potentially obscuring what is happening. Looks like a death trap to me. California recently made it illegal to park within 20 feet of a crosswalk: https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/dmv-highlights-new-laws-in-2024/#::text=Prohibits%20a%20person%20from%20parking,20%20feet%20of%20a%20crosswalk:~:text=Improved%20Visibility%20at,known%20as%20%E2%80%9Cdaylighting.%E2%80%9D https://www.dmv.ca.gov/portal/news-and-media/dmv-highlights-... SF hasn't started enforcing the law yet, and I suspect that 99% of drivers don't know about the law.
- Aloisius 3y agoThey haven't started enforcing it because you can only issue warnings if people park close to the crosswalk until next year - specifically because most drivers don't know about the law. And the law actually states that local authorities can come up with their own distance rules instead.
- rahimnathwani 3y ago> They haven't started enforcing it because you can only issue warnings if people park close to the crosswalk until next year - specifically because most drivers don't know about the law. OK, I see that now: (4) Prior to January 1, 2025, jurisdictions may only issue a warning, and shall not issue a citation, for a violation unless the violation occurs in an area marked using paint or a sign. But honestly I often see cars stopped (waiting, not parked) in red zones and have never seen them get a ticket or even asked to move on. > And the law actually states that local authorities can come up with their own distance rules instead. I didn't know this! (B) Notwithstanding subparagraph (A), a local authority may establish a different distance if both of the following requirements are met: (i) A local authority establishes the different distance by ordinance that includes a finding that the different distance is justified by established traffic safety standards. (ii) A local authority has marked the different distance at the intersection using paint or a sign. I wonder whether (n)(1)(B)(i) is, in practice, a high bar.
- jessekv 3y agoStop-as-yield for bikes is the actual law in 8 states including Washington and Oregon. This raises the question, should the car drive differently in those states? https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2022-03/Bicyclist-Yield-As-Stop-Fact-Sheet-032422-v3-tag.pdf https://www.nhtsa.gov/sites/nhtsa.gov/files/2022-03/Bicyclis...
- topkai22 3y agoNo- the bike would still be expected to yield to the automobile that arrived at the intersection first (provided that’s what happened.)
- prmoustache 3y agoEU guy here. Usually in european countries when there are stop signs, they only apply to smaller streets/roads that connect to larger prioritary roads/streets. If we want equal level of priority for all directions we either use, traffic lights, roundabouts were usually the one already engaged in the roundabout has priority over people connecting to it or use priority from your right (default priority in France for example unless specified). Who gets priority in a 4 directions stop sign?
- fsflover 3y agohttps://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39301885 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39301885