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EVs are a great daily driver for a family in the Sprawl that has a garage where they can charge the thing overnight at residential electricity rates, and that a

EVs are a great daily driver for a family in the Sprawl that has a garage where they can charge the thing overnight at residential electricity rates, and that also has a second ICE car for their occasional longer trips. If you live in a city, rely on street parking, and have to charge at the elevated rates of public chargers (which nevertheless are still barely profitable), then forget it. If you're in certain kinds of rural areas, then maybe. Maybe you can charge with your own solar, mostly. Maybe there's enough charging infrastructure at gas stations near you, for Plan B. And say you're still within comfortable EV range of a small/medium city. Then I could sort of see getting an EV. A lot of rural areas east of the Mississippi are like this. But if you're way out in Montana, or if you need to cross long stretches of desert highway in New Mexico, or something like that, then forget it. I'd do it once or twice with white knuckles and a careful plan; I wouldn't rely on it regularly. Basically, EVs are tailor-made for suburban sprawl. Which admittedly does describe the majority of American civilization, such as it is. But if you're not part of that, then they're probably not for you. And that's assuming that prices become affordable, which they haven't become yet, apart (only recently, and probably temporarily) from used Hertz Model 3s.

JohnFen 3y ago
> If you live in a city, rely on street parking, and have to charge at the elevated rates of public chargers (which nevertheless are still barely profitable), then forget it. Even if privacy wasn't a dealbreaker for me, this is what would kill the idea dead. I would have no option at all to charge an EV at home, so I would be entirely dependent on driving to a commercial charger in order to do that. Aside from cost, having to hang out at a public charger for so long every time would be hard to put up with. There's also the issue that I very much prefer to buy my cars used rather than new, but I have trouble with the idea of trusting a used EV. Replacing those batteries is very expensive.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  I’ve never had much time to do very many things when using an L3 charger. 20 minutes is enough time to run into a grocery store and grab a few things, but not to do lots of shopping.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - JohnFen 3y ago
    Doesn't using fast charging reduce the lifespan of the batteries? 20 minutes is still a long time when you're sitting in the car waiting.
    - throwaway5959 3y ago
      Have you ever done it? It’s really not. Listen to four songs or read a book on your phone and you’re done.
      - JohnFen 3y ago
        Have I ever had to sit in my car waiting for something for 20 minutes? Of course. I assume everyone has at one time or another. Occasionally, it's fine. Daily or semi-daily? Less fine. But I'd worry more about the impact of fast-charging every time I'd need to charge, though. Perhaps EV batteries work differently, but fast-charging lithium batteries I'm familiar with has a real impact on battery life. I haven't looked into this much, so I don't know. That's why I'm asking.
        brewdad 3y ago
        If you can't charge at home, there is almost no reason to buy an EV today. The infrastructure you would need to rely on just isn't there in most places. If you can charge at home, or maybe at work, there is almost no reason not to buy an EV for your next car. It charges at normal electricity rates while you sleep (or work) and you will never need to charge it anywhere else except for the occasional road trip.
        erik_seaberg 3y ago
        You need to own a home, because you can’t know whether your next apartment would have off-street charging.
- matthewdgreen 3y ago
  L3 chargers are expensive because they draw huge amounts of power in a short period, plus they have major hardware costs. L2 chargers are just connections to 240VAC wiring. They're going to be a little more expensive than, say, street lighting.
  - Ekaros 3y ago
    Street light is couple thousand. And I think they have longer lifespan. You need to sell quite a lot of electricity with some margin to cover that. And then you have all the overhead of maintenance, repairs and billing...
matthewdgreen 3y ago
As of 2022 in the US, 48% of drivers had access to off-street parking with an electric outlet. Total EV penetration is nowhere near that high. So I doubt that this is currently the barrier. To get the remaining 1/2 of car owners we'll need lamppost and curb electric chargers. This involves towns and cities running AC electrical wiring to the curb and then installing chargers that can bill for the power. This will cost money, though the revenue should offset it. Given how much we taxpayers already pay for off-street parking (you'd be amazed at how much each parking space costs to build and maintain! It's not free!), this particular cost isn't exactly world-changing.
- rurp 3y ago
  That 48% number probably overstates things a fair amount because having access to a garage doesn't mean you can easily park all of your cars in it every night. I couldn't find the number of cars that actually garage park regularly but I bet it's a pretty low number. 20-25% of people don't use their garage at all for parking and, at least in the neighborhoods I see, the vast majority park at least one vehicle outside of the garage every night. Regardless of the garage situation, widespread curb charging would be a huge help for many people.
  - eurleif 3y ago
    Off-street != garage. I don't have a garage, just a driveway; but I had a Tesla Wall Connector installed on the front of my house, and it easily reaches to my car in the driveway.
  - Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
    You don't need to park in the garage. I park my car outside my garage. The charging cable sits under the garage door just fine and reaches my charging port without a problem.
- JohnFen 3y ago
  > To get the remaining 1/2 of car owners we'll need lamppost and curb electric chargers Don't forget apartments. Lamppost and curb chargers won't help them, and only the wealthier apartment owners would even consider installing sufficient chargers in their parking lots. And if there's a smaller number of chargers that have to be shared amongst the tenants, that eliminates overnight charging and increases friction (both for charging and among the tenants). 12% of the US population lives in apartment buildings. Not a huge percentage, but a rather large number of people.

JohnFen 3y ago

> If you live in a city, rely on street parking, and have to charge at the elevated rates of public chargers (which nevertheless are still barely profitable), then forget it. Even if privacy wasn't a dealbreaker for me, this is what would kill the idea dead. I would have no option at all to charge an EV at home, so I would be entirely dependent on driving to a commercial charger in order to do that. Aside from cost, having to hang out at a public charger for so long every time would be hard to put up with. There's also the issue that I very much prefer to buy my cars used rather than new, but I have trouble with the idea of trusting a used EV. Replacing those batteries is very expensive.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
I’ve never had much time to do very many things when using an L3 charger. 20 minutes is enough time to run into a grocery store and grab a few things, but not to do lots of shopping.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- JohnFen 3y ago
  Doesn't using fast charging reduce the lifespan of the batteries? 20 minutes is still a long time when you're sitting in the car waiting.
  - throwaway5959 3y ago
    Have you ever done it? It’s really not. Listen to four songs or read a book on your phone and you’re done.
    - JohnFen 3y ago
      Have I ever had to sit in my car waiting for something for 20 minutes? Of course. I assume everyone has at one time or another. Occasionally, it's fine. Daily or semi-daily? Less fine. But I'd worry more about the impact of fast-charging every time I'd need to charge, though. Perhaps EV batteries work differently, but fast-charging lithium batteries I'm familiar with has a real impact on battery life. I haven't looked into this much, so I don't know. That's why I'm asking.
      - brewdad 3y ago
        If you can't charge at home, there is almost no reason to buy an EV today. The infrastructure you would need to rely on just isn't there in most places. If you can charge at home, or maybe at work, there is almost no reason not to buy an EV for your next car. It charges at normal electricity rates while you sleep (or work) and you will never need to charge it anywhere else except for the occasional road trip.
        erik_seaberg 3y ago
        You need to own a home, because you can’t know whether your next apartment would have off-street charging.
matthewdgreen 3y ago
L3 chargers are expensive because they draw huge amounts of power in a short period, plus they have major hardware costs. L2 chargers are just connections to 240VAC wiring. They're going to be a little more expensive than, say, street lighting.
- Ekaros 3y ago
  Street light is couple thousand. And I think they have longer lifespan. You need to sell quite a lot of electricity with some margin to cover that. And then you have all the overhead of maintenance, repairs and billing...

matthewdgreen 3y ago

As of 2022 in the US, 48% of drivers had access to off-street parking with an electric outlet. Total EV penetration is nowhere near that high. So I doubt that this is currently the barrier. To get the remaining 1/2 of car owners we'll need lamppost and curb electric chargers. This involves towns and cities running AC electrical wiring to the curb and then installing chargers that can bill for the power. This will cost money, though the revenue should offset it. Given how much we taxpayers already pay for off-street parking (you'd be amazed at how much each parking space costs to build and maintain! It's not free!), this particular cost isn't exactly world-changing.

rurp 3y ago
That 48% number probably overstates things a fair amount because having access to a garage doesn't mean you can easily park all of your cars in it every night. I couldn't find the number of cars that actually garage park regularly but I bet it's a pretty low number. 20-25% of people don't use their garage at all for parking and, at least in the neighborhoods I see, the vast majority park at least one vehicle outside of the garage every night. Regardless of the garage situation, widespread curb charging would be a huge help for many people.
- eurleif 3y ago
  Off-street != garage. I don't have a garage, just a driveway; but I had a Tesla Wall Connector installed on the front of my house, and it easily reaches to my car in the driveway.
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  You don't need to park in the garage. I park my car outside my garage. The charging cable sits under the garage door just fine and reaches my charging port without a problem.
JohnFen 3y ago
> To get the remaining 1/2 of car owners we'll need lamppost and curb electric chargers Don't forget apartments. Lamppost and curb chargers won't help them, and only the wealthier apartment owners would even consider installing sufficient chargers in their parking lots. And if there's a smaller number of chargers that have to be shared amongst the tenants, that eliminates overnight charging and increases friction (both for charging and among the tenants). 12% of the US population lives in apartment buildings. Not a huge percentage, but a rather large number of people.