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The Republic of China (aka Taiwan) had never any interests in effectively and finally surrendering to the communists on the mainland. The "threat of invasion"

The Republic of China (aka Taiwan) had never any interests in effectively and finally surrendering to the communists on the mainland. The "threat of invasion" has been the case since 1949. The communists stopped and did not 'finish the job' because it was hard, because of a deal with the Nationalists, because they got distracted in Korea, whatever other plausible reasons. This has been the situation since. Interestingly this does not mean that the people, especially pro-KMT, are necessarily 'pro-US'. Those people are rooting for China but not for the communists and see the US as a necessary 'evil', so to speak.

throwaway2474 3y ago
There is an enormous amount of skepticism towards the US TSMC deal in Taiwan, in the sense that Tsai Ing-wen “sold out” Taiwanese IP and top engineers due to political pressure. And in fairness, the US does not have a strong track record wrt its overseas military shenanigans actually helping locals, to put it lightly. A lot of people in Taiwan are anti-CCP, but at the same time, not pro-US because they see the US as an untrustworthy or at least unreliable military ally.
- semi-extrinsic 3y ago
  > And in fairness, the US does not have a strong track record wrt its overseas military shenanigans actually helping locals, to put it lightly. Furthermore the looming US presidential election is making people nervous even in countries that don't depend strongly on the US...
- bee_rider 3y ago
  OTOH it seems fairly safe to build a TSMC factory in the US and loan us some engineers. I mean it isn’t as if we’re actually going to make the long term investments in the education of our people required to steal TSMC’s secrets.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  > There is an enormous amount of skepticism towards the US TSMC deal in Taiwan, in the sense that Tsai Ing-wen “sold out” Taiwanese IP and top engineers due to political pressure. I followed that story in the media for months. I never saw this sentiment. Can you share some sources? I couldn't find anything from mainstream media.
jasonjei 3y ago
This is one of the most articulate explanations of KMT. You hit it on the nail that KMT isn’t so much pro-Communists as it is pro China.
- alvarezbjm-hn 3y ago
  But, How would you separate one from the other (China from government)? Sounds like a strawman for them
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    The same way you can be pro-Korea and anti-communist or, in the past, pro-Germany and anti-communist... 'China' does not mean the People's Republic of China, which is the communist state that occupies mainland China (from KMT's point of view). Taiwan is China, too.
  - alisonatwork 3y ago
    The majority of Taiwanese people do not even consider themselves partially Chinese and none of the major political parties have any interest in political unification with China. Some people in Taiwan might wish the people of China well because they have family there, but this is no different to how members of the Chinese diaspora around the rest of the world feel about the country. The pro-China political parties in Taiwan are primarily right-wing parties, which is to say they are much more interested in the Chinese market than in Chinese politics.
    - hmm37 3y ago
      There's an issue in how these polls are being conducted and it's hard to tell what's happening especially with Western articles that don't fully give all information or give the polling questions. The word "Chinese" have many different ways of stating it in Chinese. So when they ask in polls e.g. are you "Chinese", it really depends on which word they use. They can use 中国人, which does mean Chinese, but it also has a much stronger political connotation related to the mainland. So most people in Taiwan will say no they aren't 中国人, since they have their own government. However if you were ask, e.g. are you 华人 also a word for "Chinese", etc, they will more likely say yes. After all the official country's name is 中華民國. Mainland Chinese people will also say they are 华人 too.
georgeecollins 3y ago
That's a great way to put it. In the US we describe things as some "freedom vs communism" conflict. I kind of had that point of view until I went to school in Hong Kong, long ago. I found that in general the Chinese in HK had more sympathy or patriotism for China then Europe (particularly England!) or the US. They may not have wanted to be part of the Chinese mainland government as it was, but they were very supportive of a strong China. They felt very aggrieved about how Western Powers had treated China in the past. I think the problem is-- thinking about my friends in Hong Kong-- is that it is hard to find a third way and that may not be stable in the long run.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  Regardless of your observed relative sympathy towards China versus UK/US, how do you explain the multi-year protests against the proposed security law? Maybe the sympathy isn't so strong after all. Mostly, people didn't want to lose their freedom. They could clearly see the security law was the "beginning of the end" for their democratic freedoms, include free speech, right to protest, and voting for their choice of leaders (excluding CEO).
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    He explained. Hongkong is a part of China that was seized by foreigners for 150 years. Inhabitants are Chinese in China. Just look at HK movies that often depict Chinese' struggle against Europeans with the 'white guys' usually the bad guys. But that obviously does not mean that they would necessarily support the communist party or agree to relinquish their (very new) rights. This is the same everywhere. People may oppose the government but it does not imply that they are not belonging to their country. Obviously. It's quite extraordinary to see the depth of the anti-China narrative. Only them can be forcibly invaded and still be the bad guys when they peacefully recover their territory.

throwaway2474 3y ago

There is an enormous amount of skepticism towards the US TSMC deal in Taiwan, in the sense that Tsai Ing-wen “sold out” Taiwanese IP and top engineers due to political pressure. And in fairness, the US does not have a strong track record wrt its overseas military shenanigans actually helping locals, to put it lightly. A lot of people in Taiwan are anti-CCP, but at the same time, not pro-US because they see the US as an untrustworthy or at least unreliable military ally.

semi-extrinsic 3y ago
> And in fairness, the US does not have a strong track record wrt its overseas military shenanigans actually helping locals, to put it lightly. Furthermore the looming US presidential election is making people nervous even in countries that don't depend strongly on the US...
bee_rider 3y ago
OTOH it seems fairly safe to build a TSMC factory in the US and loan us some engineers. I mean it isn’t as if we’re actually going to make the long term investments in the education of our people required to steal TSMC’s secrets.
throwaway2037 3y ago
> There is an enormous amount of skepticism towards the US TSMC deal in Taiwan, in the sense that Tsai Ing-wen “sold out” Taiwanese IP and top engineers due to political pressure. I followed that story in the media for months. I never saw this sentiment. Can you share some sources? I couldn't find anything from mainstream media.

jasonjei 3y ago

This is one of the most articulate explanations of KMT. You hit it on the nail that KMT isn’t so much pro-Communists as it is pro China.

alvarezbjm-hn 3y ago
But, How would you separate one from the other (China from government)? Sounds like a strawman for them
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  The same way you can be pro-Korea and anti-communist or, in the past, pro-Germany and anti-communist... 'China' does not mean the People's Republic of China, which is the communist state that occupies mainland China (from KMT's point of view). Taiwan is China, too.
- alisonatwork 3y ago
  The majority of Taiwanese people do not even consider themselves partially Chinese and none of the major political parties have any interest in political unification with China. Some people in Taiwan might wish the people of China well because they have family there, but this is no different to how members of the Chinese diaspora around the rest of the world feel about the country. The pro-China political parties in Taiwan are primarily right-wing parties, which is to say they are much more interested in the Chinese market than in Chinese politics.
  - hmm37 3y ago
    There's an issue in how these polls are being conducted and it's hard to tell what's happening especially with Western articles that don't fully give all information or give the polling questions. The word "Chinese" have many different ways of stating it in Chinese. So when they ask in polls e.g. are you "Chinese", it really depends on which word they use. They can use 中国人, which does mean Chinese, but it also has a much stronger political connotation related to the mainland. So most people in Taiwan will say no they aren't 中国人, since they have their own government. However if you were ask, e.g. are you 华人 also a word for "Chinese", etc, they will more likely say yes. After all the official country's name is 中華民國. Mainland Chinese people will also say they are 华人 too.

georgeecollins 3y ago

That's a great way to put it. In the US we describe things as some "freedom vs communism" conflict. I kind of had that point of view until I went to school in Hong Kong, long ago. I found that in general the Chinese in HK had more sympathy or patriotism for China then Europe (particularly England!) or the US. They may not have wanted to be part of the Chinese mainland government as it was, but they were very supportive of a strong China. They felt very aggrieved about how Western Powers had treated China in the past. I think the problem is-- thinking about my friends in Hong Kong-- is that it is hard to find a third way and that may not be stable in the long run.

throwaway2037 3y ago
Regardless of your observed relative sympathy towards China versus UK/US, how do you explain the multi-year protests against the proposed security law? Maybe the sympathy isn't so strong after all. Mostly, people didn't want to lose their freedom. They could clearly see the security law was the "beginning of the end" for their democratic freedoms, include free speech, right to protest, and voting for their choice of leaders (excluding CEO).
- mytailorisrich 3y ago
  He explained. Hongkong is a part of China that was seized by foreigners for 150 years. Inhabitants are Chinese in China. Just look at HK movies that often depict Chinese' struggle against Europeans with the 'white guys' usually the bad guys. But that obviously does not mean that they would necessarily support the communist party or agree to relinquish their (very new) rights. This is the same everywhere. People may oppose the government but it does not imply that they are not belonging to their country. Obviously. It's quite extraordinary to see the depth of the anti-China narrative. Only them can be forcibly invaded and still be the bad guys when they peacefully recover their territory.