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So, maybe someone here can explain this to me. I anyways hear about how the entire semiconductor industry is completely dependent on TSMC, and nothing can opera
by gipp 3y ago
So, maybe someone here can explain this to me. I anyways hear about how the entire semiconductor industry is completely dependent on TSMC, and nothing can operate without them, thus their geopolitical importance.
But then what are Intel, Arm, etc in this picture? I don't understand semiconductor manufacturing in enough detail -- I assume TSMC occupies a different part of the supply chain? But chip manufacturing seems like a pretty integrated process top to bottom; what's the division between them? In concrete terms, what is it that TSMC is doing that nobody else is?
- cromka 3y agoARM does not manufacture own chips, they just design and license them. Outside of Intel, pretty much everyone else uses TSMC to build their computing chips.
- hosteur 3y agoNot even amd or TI?
- whstl 3y agoAMD's main manufacturer is TSMC. They also use other companies AFAIK. Texas Instruments has its own factories in the USA but AFAIK they make other kinds of ICs than the popular ones that TSMC is known for, they do mostly analog and embedded (still important stuff). The sibling post to yours lists other factories. There are definitely other companies.
- kmlx 3y ago> Outside of Intel, pretty much everyone else uses TSMC to build their computing chips. this isn’t correct. UMC, SMIC and TI have more than 10 fabs each. Nanya 3 fabs. Micron > 10 fabs. Intel > 10 fabs. Tower Semiconductor 7 fabs. Rohm > 10 fabs. Fuji 4 fabs. Fujitsu 5 fabs. Kioxia 10 fabs. Renesas 9 fabs. and the list goes on and on.
- mschuster91 3y agoMost of these are very large node sizes though [1]. In ultra-small node sizes for processors, there is basically only Intel, Samsung, Globalfoundries (ex AMD) and TSMC. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat...
- adgjlsfhk1 3y agoexcept that GF isn't leading edge any more. Their smallest node is (I think) 12nm which is about 8 years behind.
- bonton89 3y agoEven Intel builds their GPUs at TSMC.
- snvzz 3y agoFor <10nm specifically. And it is TSMC, Samsung and Intel.
- YetAnotherNick 3y ago> I anyways hear about how the entire semiconductor industry is completely dependent on TSMC I don't think it's as strong dependance as many commenters assume here. Samsung is 2 years behind TSMC and intel 3-4 years behind in terms of fab capability. While losing 2 years of progress is not great, it's definitely nothing like world can't function without TSMC. Obviously they need few years to ramp up but I assume it's not like Taiwan geopolitics situation would change in a day.
- electriclove 3y agoThey focused on the manufacturing part https://youtu.be/r_8XClnnvIk https://youtu.be/r_8XClnnvIk
- CitizenKane 3y agoCurrently TSMC has the only leading edge chip fabrications plants (fabs) on the planet and they're all located in Taiwan. They account for all new chips for all new Apple products, all new AMD products, most new Nvidia products, etc. Most companies design the the chips, but then outsource the manufacturing of them to TSMC as building a fab has astronomical upfront costs. TSMC has acquired a lead in this area through a number of different methods. One of the main things is that they focus deeply on manufacturing. Another is that they work 24 hours a day in R&D, running 3 shifts so they basically have the lights on all the time. And as mentioned above, the upfront costs are incredibly high with a fab costing on the order of 20+ billion dollars to construct. Intel is attempting to catch up, but it will likely be another 3 to 5 years before they are able to do so. Honestly just having R&D up and going all the time is probably a huge advantage for TSMC and probably a big reason behind their success. Regardless, suffice to say basically all cutting edge product shipments would cease in a matter of months if TSMC fabs were destroyed.
- marcosdumay 3y agoMulti-shift R&D is a weird proposition. Is it for best using machinery?
- biztos 3y agoAccording to this, it has something to do with the movement of the wafers: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35667282 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=35667282 It also has to do with competitive boasting: theirs goes to eleven.
- marcosdumay 3y agoI'd translate "move wafers" as run test batches. What I understand from that is that he can run more tests on his machines. Honestly, I'm not sure anything of that is real. I can't believe other fabs don't run tests 24/7, and I can't believe they have people that rarely meet changing the same machines instead of only running tests without changing anything.
- sofixa 3y ago> I anyways hear about how the entire semiconductor industry is completely dependent on TSMC, and nothing can operate without them, thus their geopolitical importance. This is quite hyperbolic. While losing TSMC will have a massive global impact, there are alternatives in many different market segments (e.g. Intel for CPUs and GPUs for computing, be it personal or datacenter), STMicro/NXP/Infineon/Bosch for industrial applications, etc. They may not be as advanced, or as good, or as cheap, or in enough quantities, but it's flat out false to say that TSMC is the entire semiconductor industry. Just a major portion of the bleeding edge.
- MangoCoffee 3y agoIntel before Patrick P. Gelsinger only made chips for Intel. ARM doesn't make chip on the low-end and mid-tier chip, you have plenty of fabs like Global Foundries, UMC...etc. on the high end, you have Intel, TSMC, and Samsung
- xenadu02 3y agoIntel used to have the fab lead over everyone else, generally being 1-2 generations ahead. That persisted for at least a decade. Then they had a huge whiff. Their 10nm node was due in 2016 and they didn't start volume production until 2019. That gave TSMC a huge opportunity to catch up and pass them which is exactly what they did... TSMC went volume on 10nm in 2017. Samsung is behind a generation (or thereabouts). Not sure why exactly. AMD spun off their fab as GlobalFoundaries. The separate company bowed out of the bleeding-edge fab business. Their 14nm node was licensed from Samsung and they completely cancelled their 7nm node. As bleeding-edge fabs kept getting more and more expensive lots of companies decided to go fabless. They were able to do that because unlike everyone else TSMC doesn't make chips for itself so it doesn't represent a competitive threat. This is the real key to TSMC's success. Other companies like GlobalFoundaries and ON Semi are filling volume with older process nodes like 14nm. There's a large number of chips needed by millions of manufacturers large and small. Only a small proportion of those need the power/perf you get from the latest and greatest. Manufacturing on an older node is cheaper thanks to lower capex and much much better yields. Eventually I think we'll see litho equipment make its way into the niche market similar to 3d printers. We've seen some people hacking together stuff to make their own chips in a garage... they're tiny 5-2000 transistor affairs but it would be quite interesting to be able to churn out a custom chip with a million transistors on it.
- greggsy 3y agoA cottage industry does seem to be within the realms of possibility, and 3D printing is an apt comparison. However, it’s likely to be prone to the same challenges - input materials (filament and wafers) will be subject to variable quality and environmental factors (moisture, heat, dust), and the machines themselves will take some time to mature (how many iterations of incompatible 3D printer ‘standards’ have cropped up in the two decades since DIY printing emerged in the scene?). The nirvana of a household printing capability never really materialised.
- drexlspivey 3y agoPlease explain this to me, isn't the lithography equipment from ASML that does all the hard work of imprinting the wafers? If Samsung and Intel buys the same machines why can't they make the chips with the same transistor density?
- throwawayai2 3y agoGood answers here, but look at the book "Chip Wars" if you want to learn a lot more.
- gkanai 3y agoAsianometry has a number of explainer videos on TSMC. I recommend them: https://www.asianometry.com/p/tsmc-briefly-explained https://www.asianometry.com/p/tsmc-briefly-explained
- araes 3y agoGenerally, they're not (or should not be), and its mostly hype tunnel vision (imo). Here's a link to the List of Semiconductor Fab Plants worldwide. [1] Note: This is a 1000 line table that lists production per plant at 10,000-100,000 / month for most fabs with numbers. There are a lot of other chip sources. However, TSMC has the largest capacity worldwide. Intel's probably second for capacity. Samsung's probably third. Micron, Texas Instruments, Infineon, Epistar, and several others are lower down yet significant. If you need small chips, out of plants already constructed, based on the data in the list, Intel and Samsung appear to have the "current" smallest node size at 7 nm. TSMC has three plants under construction with 3-5 nm node size. Intel and Samsung also have a lot of capacity in the 7-20 nm range. Most companies are in the 20+ nm size ranges, although definite exceptions with Nanya (10 nm), SK Hynix (10 nm), nanoPHAB (10 nm), Win Semiconductor (10 nm), GlobalFoundries (12 nm), SMIC (14 nm), UMC (14 nm), Kioxia/SanDisk (15 nm). There's also technology and product variety, although most list 3-5 for each plant, so there's a bunch of specializations. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabrication_plants https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_semiconductor_fabricat...
- ksec 3y ago>TSMC occupies a different part of the supply chain..... This is an interesting but not so obvious question, because it is so basic, I would thought it wont be on HN at the same time judging from comments on Hardware topic it really should have been spelled out clearly in the first place. So first you have IP companies like ARM. They have lots of different IPs. ( Intellectual Properties ) From ISA ( Instruction Set Architecture ), think x86, ARMv8 etc to the actual CPU design, think Intel P-Core, E-Core, Skylake, AMD's Zen core etc. Along with many other IPs from GPU to Network, CPU Interconnect or even DRAM controller. ARM will work with TSMC ( or any other popular Fabs for specific market ) to have those design specific for the Fab and specific to certain Fab technology. So in an extremely over simplified situation, you buy a few IPs, or there are even reference designs. Stitch them together. Send them over to TSMC and say hey can you print them ( or Fab ) for me. What TSMC doing that nobody can do ( in the same time frame ) is that they could Fab it using industry leading technology, or the smallest transistor currently available as long as you are willing to pay for it. There are plenty of chips that doesn't require TSMC to print. From Automotive to low cost semiconductor using very very old semi-conductor Fab's technology. Think about the small chips that goes into toys or electronic appliance. Or simple calculators.