6 ms·

Why does it make you wince?

mavamaarten 3y ago
From a non-python dev perspective: I always struggle with dependencies and versions. I have a script in front of me that I want to run, and am often just frustratingly brute-forcing commands to make it work. Do I: python? python3? pip install? pip3 install? python pip install? python pip3 install? python3 pip install? python3 pip3 install? And then everyone mentions "oh just use venv" or "conda" or docker or... It just never ends or it never clearly explains what to do. And all I want to do is run a relatively simple script. Or course I would use a docker image to run a more complex app. But it's frustratingly hard to manage for people who don't use it often. I'm from a java/Kotlin world where things aren't perfect either. But at least dependencies are clearly defined, and the only thing you need is Gradle that updates itself through a wrapper script if needed and pulls all dependencies. And a JVM/JDK which is also configured/installed quite clearly in a specific location.
- diarrhea 3y ago
  Yeah, it's definitely painful. Over the years, I've probably spent in excess of 100 hours on understanding pip, venv, PYTHONPATH, poetry/pdm, pipfile, pyenv, ... still barely understand how it all works together. https://peps.python.org/pep-0723/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0723/ might make life much simpler for single-script applications.
- FergusArgyll 3y ago
  for simple scripts, this is the easiest and works. python3 -m venv venv source venv/bin/activate pip install whatever echo "source path/to/venv/bin/activate && python3 path/to/app.py" > myscript mv myscript /usr/local/bin and just use myscript. I use this for a lot of little scripts
  - bomewish 3y ago
    Why not just Path/to/venv/bin/python path/to/app.py? Neat trick though, gonna adopt it!
  - ctippett 3y ago
    I haven't tried this myself, but you could probably save yourself the wrapper script and execute your script directly by adding a shebang pointing to the Python executable from your virtual environment. printf '%s\n%s\n' "#!path/to/venv/bin/python3" "$(cat path/to/app.py)" > /usr/local/bin/myscript
- cultofmetatron 3y ago
  I feel you. python itself has its warts but its mostly minor. The dependancy hell though.. god damn it confuses me every time. I don't understand why they can't get it together with one consistent dependency system with good ergonomics. ruby does it with gem. elixir handles things reasonably well with mix. rust does it REALLY well with cargo. hell even ocaml has opam. but python? it between conda, pip, pip3, virtualenv and who knows what else. its hard to make something that I knwo will just work on everything.
  - odyssey7 3y ago
    To highlight another dynamically typed, interpreted language ecosystem, npm has been providing a remarkably smooth and uniformly adopted service for the JavaScript community.
- VagabundoP 3y ago
  Rye[1] is an all in one manager for python projects. Including the python versions and virtualenv, pip etc etc... It separates tool deps from app deps. Its all configured through a pyproject.toml config file. Its still new but works well. I'm transitioning to it from an unholy mess of pyenv, pip installs and other manual hacks. If you're starting a new python project that is more than just a straightforward script I'd use Rye from the get go. [1]https://rye-up.com/ https://rye-up.com/
- ptx 3y ago
  Part of the problem is that this used to require third-party tools, which gave rise to lots of different tools, but nowadays everything you need is included in Python itself. The simplest way (in the sense of having the fewest components required) is this, using only built-in tools: $ python3 -m venv --upgrade-deps my-virtual-environment $ my-virtual-environment/bin/pip install whatever-third-party-package $ my-virtual-environment/bin/python3 my-script.py This creates an isolated virtual environment in "my-virtual-environment". Use the pip and python3 binaries inside that directory to install packages and run scripts. Done. (The "activate" step suggested in other comments is just a convenience for setting your PATH to refer to the virtual environment implicitly, so that's completely optional.) Note that Debian's python3 package leaves out some parts of the standard Python distribution, but you can install the python3-full package for a complete installation.
  - pletnes 3y ago
    This is a fairly good answer but on windows, there’s no python3, so that’s your first command being broken.
    - ptx 3y ago
      Right, on Windows the recipe needs a few alterations but is essentially the same. This should work: > py -3 -m venv --upgrade-deps my-virtual-environment > my-virtual-environment\Scripts\pip install whatever-third-party-package > my-virtual-environment\Scripts\python my-script.py This assumes that the Python launcher (py.exe) was installed when installing Python, which it is by default.
      - IshKebab 3y ago
        See this is the problem. You're already several "ah yes and you need to"s deep.
        ptx 3y ago
        Not really. It's the same 3-step process in both cases.
- weberer 3y ago
  Thankfully, most distros/OSs don't ship with Python 2 anymore, so `python` will just link to `python3`.
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    Nope. Debian doesn't ship a `python` at all, which I think is the sensible option. You should universally use `python3`. Except on Windows the official distribution is bonkers and has no `python3.exe`. Probably the easiest solution is to install it from the Microsoft store instead which does.
- klibertp 3y ago
  You seriously consider Gradle - a kitchen sink and a monstrosity scripted in obscure, extremely dynamic language - a better solution just because it has a... wrapper script?! With Gradle, where do you define dependencies? All with version numbers in the `dependencies` block? In a separate file, declaring a hash map of versions and then a hash map of dependencies, and then putting the latter into `ext`, which magically propagates to just about everywhere in the build silently? In a separate file using some plugin that tries to replicate the lockfile functionality baked into most other dependency systems? In a separate TOML file, using the Catalog? ...and that's just about dependencies, I could go on for days about other Gradle features... It's not any better than Python. You're just used to it. The same complexity is there in both Python and Kotlin, you just learned to cope with one better than the other. (Gradle with Kotlin DSL and good IDE support is a little better, mostly because Kotlin devs are not as afraid of touching the build as when it's done in Groovy. It's still 2 orders of magnitude more complex than whatever you use for Python - unless you use zc.buildout or something like that.)
postepowanieadm 3y ago
Installing python software is hard. Golang is much easier for and end user.
- vundercind 3y ago
  Go is what I reach for when I might otherwise write Python but need to actually, like, distribute my program.
lumb63 3y ago
Personally, I wince at Python because, while I view it as a quick-and-dirty scripting language, some people write production code in Python. And here we are ten years later, stuck with code that reads a few metrics from the system, packages them into JSON, and sends them to an API for monitoring. The code takes 7 seconds at 100% CPU to resolve the imports, every time it runs.
- wasmitnetzen 3y ago
  You can write bad code in any language, I fail to see how that's Python's problem.

From a non-python dev perspective: I always struggle with dependencies and versions. I have a script in front of me that I want to run, and am often just frustratingly brute-forcing commands to make it work. Do I: python? python3? pip install? pip3 install? python pip install? python pip3 install? python3 pip install? python3 pip3 install? And then everyone mentions "oh just use venv" or "conda" or docker or... It just never ends or it never clearly explains what to do. And all I want to do is run a relatively simple script. Or course I would use a docker image to run a more complex app. But it's frustratingly hard to manage for people who don't use it often. I'm from a java/Kotlin world where things aren't perfect either. But at least dependencies are clearly defined, and the only thing you need is Gradle that updates itself through a wrapper script if needed and pulls all dependencies. And a JVM/JDK which is also configured/installed quite clearly in a specific location.

diarrhea 3y ago
Yeah, it's definitely painful. Over the years, I've probably spent in excess of 100 hours on understanding pip, venv, PYTHONPATH, poetry/pdm, pipfile, pyenv, ... still barely understand how it all works together. https://peps.python.org/pep-0723/ https://peps.python.org/pep-0723/ might make life much simpler for single-script applications.
FergusArgyll 3y ago
for simple scripts, this is the easiest and works. python3 -m venv venv source venv/bin/activate pip install whatever echo "source path/to/venv/bin/activate && python3 path/to/app.py" > myscript mv myscript /usr/local/bin and just use myscript. I use this for a lot of little scripts
- bomewish 3y ago
  Why not just Path/to/venv/bin/python path/to/app.py? Neat trick though, gonna adopt it!
- ctippett 3y ago
  I haven't tried this myself, but you could probably save yourself the wrapper script and execute your script directly by adding a shebang pointing to the Python executable from your virtual environment. printf '%s\n%s\n' "#!path/to/venv/bin/python3" "$(cat path/to/app.py)" > /usr/local/bin/myscript
cultofmetatron 3y ago
I feel you. python itself has its warts but its mostly minor. The dependancy hell though.. god damn it confuses me every time. I don't understand why they can't get it together with one consistent dependency system with good ergonomics. ruby does it with gem. elixir handles things reasonably well with mix. rust does it REALLY well with cargo. hell even ocaml has opam. but python? it between conda, pip, pip3, virtualenv and who knows what else. its hard to make something that I knwo will just work on everything.
- odyssey7 3y ago
  To highlight another dynamically typed, interpreted language ecosystem, npm has been providing a remarkably smooth and uniformly adopted service for the JavaScript community.
VagabundoP 3y ago
Rye[1] is an all in one manager for python projects. Including the python versions and virtualenv, pip etc etc... It separates tool deps from app deps. Its all configured through a pyproject.toml config file. Its still new but works well. I'm transitioning to it from an unholy mess of pyenv, pip installs and other manual hacks. If you're starting a new python project that is more than just a straightforward script I'd use Rye from the get go. [1]https://rye-up.com/ https://rye-up.com/
ptx 3y ago
Part of the problem is that this used to require third-party tools, which gave rise to lots of different tools, but nowadays everything you need is included in Python itself. The simplest way (in the sense of having the fewest components required) is this, using only built-in tools: $ python3 -m venv --upgrade-deps my-virtual-environment $ my-virtual-environment/bin/pip install whatever-third-party-package $ my-virtual-environment/bin/python3 my-script.py This creates an isolated virtual environment in "my-virtual-environment". Use the pip and python3 binaries inside that directory to install packages and run scripts. Done. (The "activate" step suggested in other comments is just a convenience for setting your PATH to refer to the virtual environment implicitly, so that's completely optional.) Note that Debian's python3 package leaves out some parts of the standard Python distribution, but you can install the python3-full package for a complete installation.
- pletnes 3y ago
  This is a fairly good answer but on windows, there’s no python3, so that’s your first command being broken.
  - ptx 3y ago
    Right, on Windows the recipe needs a few alterations but is essentially the same. This should work: > py -3 -m venv --upgrade-deps my-virtual-environment > my-virtual-environment\Scripts\pip install whatever-third-party-package > my-virtual-environment\Scripts\python my-script.py This assumes that the Python launcher (py.exe) was installed when installing Python, which it is by default.
    - IshKebab 3y ago
      See this is the problem. You're already several "ah yes and you need to"s deep.
      - ptx 3y ago
        Not really. It's the same 3-step process in both cases.
weberer 3y ago
Thankfully, most distros/OSs don't ship with Python 2 anymore, so `python` will just link to `python3`.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  Nope. Debian doesn't ship a `python` at all, which I think is the sensible option. You should universally use `python3`. Except on Windows the official distribution is bonkers and has no `python3.exe`. Probably the easiest solution is to install it from the Microsoft store instead which does.
klibertp 3y ago
You seriously consider Gradle - a kitchen sink and a monstrosity scripted in obscure, extremely dynamic language - a better solution just because it has a... wrapper script?! With Gradle, where do you define dependencies? All with version numbers in the `dependencies` block? In a separate file, declaring a hash map of versions and then a hash map of dependencies, and then putting the latter into `ext`, which magically propagates to just about everywhere in the build silently? In a separate file using some plugin that tries to replicate the lockfile functionality baked into most other dependency systems? In a separate TOML file, using the Catalog? ...and that's just about dependencies, I could go on for days about other Gradle features... It's not any better than Python. You're just used to it. The same complexity is there in both Python and Kotlin, you just learned to cope with one better than the other. (Gradle with Kotlin DSL and good IDE support is a little better, mostly because Kotlin devs are not as afraid of touching the build as when it's done in Groovy. It's still 2 orders of magnitude more complex than whatever you use for Python - unless you use zc.buildout or something like that.)

postepowanieadm 3y ago

Installing python software is hard. Golang is much easier for and end user.

vundercind 3y ago
Go is what I reach for when I might otherwise write Python but need to actually, like, distribute my program.

lumb63 3y ago

Personally, I wince at Python because, while I view it as a quick-and-dirty scripting language, some people write production code in Python. And here we are ten years later, stuck with code that reads a few metrics from the system, packages them into JSON, and sends them to an API for monitoring. The code takes 7 seconds at 100% CPU to resolve the imports, every time it runs.

wasmitnetzen 3y ago
You can write bad code in any language, I fail to see how that's Python's problem.