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Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark
- nonrandomstring 3y agoWhat an excellent outcome. Well done Jesper Graugaard. Like Alan Bates, those fighting for common sense and decency around technology are gaining strength and winning victories despite the fear and reluctance of institutions to challenge big-tech.
- obarthelemy 3y agoThat's not what the article nor the judgement say though...
- nonrandomstring 3y agoWhat did you think it said?
- mcosta 3y agoSecond paragraph From 1 August 2024 onwards, Danish schools will no longer be allowed to enable Chromebooks and Google platforms to collect students' personal data for processing
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- input_sh 3y agoIt says that there's no legal ground for troubleshooting/measuring data to be shared with Google: > The conclusion of the Danish Data Protection Authority's decision is that there is authority to pass on the students' information for the purpose of providing the services, improving the security and reliability of the services, communication with e.g. the municipalities and compliance with legal obligations. > At the same time, however, the assessment is that the Folkeskole Act does not sufficiently clearly authorize the municipalities to pass on the students' information for the maintenance and improvement of the Google Workspace for Education service, ChromeOS and the Chrome browser, or for measuring the performance and development of new functions and services in ChromeOS and the Chrome browser. That's very different than the DPA outright saying Chromebooks "will no longer be allowed", period. Google could introduce a toggle to separate the two in order not to lose the entire market, schools could dual-boot a Linux distro on them, and so on. Like everything GDPR-related, it's far more nuanced than what random HN commenters want to believe.
- nonrandomstring 3y agoFair enough, that is a distinction worth making. A good one in fact. Bceuase now Google may be forced to unlock or otherwise not encumber Chrombeook hardware.
- chocolatkey 3y agoThe real problem I saw with Chromebooks used in educational settings was not Google, but the extensions from sketchy third-parties forced on students by IT policy with unlimited permissions to vaccum up their data and sell to the highest bidder
- soegaard 3y agoMy impression is that Kommunernes Landsforening (the national association of municipalities) will work together with Google Denmark to find a solution. In the mean time (till August) schools can continue using Google WorkSpace.
- glimshe 3y agoWhat's the problem with our children doing the entirety of their learning in a data collection box that aims to bombard them with advertisement and get them used to an ecosystem for lifelong ad targeting? Now seriously, if Chromebooks didn't exist, couldn't you imagine a Black Mirror episode around this very theme?
- steve1977 3y agoI find the idea that our children are supposedly doing the entirety of their learning in a school just as worthy of a Black Mirror episode…
- throwaway71271 3y agoSchools+laptops is absolutely crazy. The amount of incompetence is beyond reason. My daughter(12)'s keyboard got broken, now she is afraid she wont be able to take her exam with an external keyboard because there is a spyware extension they use called 'safe exam browser' that might block her computer when she plugs the keyboard. Most of the kids are just using it to snapchat during class. I will honestly prefer to just ban all tech from schools.
- Traubenfuchs 3y ago> Schools + laptops Are there any believable success story for this from involved people (= students+teachers+parents)?
- jon-wood 3y agoHi. I had fairly severe dyslexia (and it turns out undiagnosed ADHD) in school, I could read fine, but handwriting in particular was hideously slow, to the point where I wasn't able to actually learn much because I was spending all my time laboriously writing things out. Once my parents persuaded the school to let me use an electronic word processor (I hesitate to call it a laptop by modern standards) for anything that involved writing it made the world of difference. As a happy side effect it also had a BASIC interpreter, which I would absolutely use to distract myself in boring lessons. I've been a professional software developer more or less since I left school. Not sure what the lesson is there... give kids laptops but only allow text editors and compilers?
- throwaway71271 3y ago> give kids laptops but only allow text editors and compilers one commander x16 per child :)
- hilbert42 3y ago"...dyslexia (and it turns out undiagnosed ADHD) in school," "...for anything that involved writing it made the world of difference." No doubt what you say is true but it's odd as research has shown that using a keyboard requires additional cognition and thus usually more is learned when taking handwritten notes specifically because it's less mentally taxing. If I recall there was research to this effect on an HN story in the last week or so. It would be interesting to know why the opposite seems to be so with you.
- criddell 3y agoI think it’s too bad that the One Laptop Per Child initiative didn’t make it. I think they had a lot of great ideas. Hardware and software tailored for learning, designed with the user and classroom in mind.
- lukan 3y agoChromebooks are very well done technically. The "only" thing you would need to do, is un-google them. But then they don't work anymore ...
- martin_a 3y agoWell, there seems to be a solution, didn't see the talk yet, but it's available here: https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-11929-turning_chromebooks_into_regular_laptops https://media.ccc.de/v/37c3-11929-turning_chromebooks_into_r...
- lukan 3y agoOk wow, I did not watched it fully, but de-googeling actually seems way more complicated, than I thought.
- Moldoteck 3y agoNice, now force some linux distro like ubuntu and also ban microsoft&adobe software too
- delfinom 3y agoSo is there going to be a mandate to throw money at every open source project used or are we going to be useless leeches?
- Moldoteck 3y agoWill be nice if such a fund would exist. On the other hand I really dislike how you tried to insult the users of free opensource projects by naming them useless leeches...
- a321neo 3y agoPublic sector IT in Denmark has been in a weird tug of war between those eager to sell out our data to American companies and those who naively think Ubuntu and LibreOffice can realistically replace the public sector's dependency on Microsoft. We need to keep our data in Denmark and become less dependent on American companies (and especially Microsoft/Google). But the change needs to be led by IT professionals who care about usability and know better than forcing Linux and LibreOffice down the throat of elderly office workers. One approach is to identify the business processes they are using Microsoft/Google apps for and then offer the entire process through well-designed web apps hosted in Denmark.
- Al-Khwarizmi 3y agoI'm far from a Linux zealot, in fact I'm writing this from Windows as it's the OS I prefer for my personal computing needs, but I don't see much of a problem with elderly office workers using Linux. The main problem with Linux usability is installing and updating it. If all you do is browse, fill web forms and write documents, and you have the software to do so installed and maintained by someone else, I don't see how it can be much harder to use than Windows. It could even be easier in the sense that they could safely open "catvideo.exe" while slacking at work without causing a disaster.
- noir_lord 3y agoIf someone else is doing the maintenance then moving from Windows to Linux is no different than from Windows to Chromebook (arguably easier) for the average senior. I moved my mum to Linux over Windows about a decade ago and her only requirement for a computer is that it has to run that "minty thing" - bless her, she has no idea what an OS is or why she should care.
- 4gotunameagain 3y agoUnfortunately the US will never stop the hard courting of Denmark (the influence of which can be readily seen in Danish society, as American values are antithetical to Scandinavian values), because of Thule Air Base, the northernmost US military base, in Greenland. You can see how much young Danes idolise the US. This could be said for more EU countries, but by my experience living in Denmark, it is much more pronounced there.
- choffee 3y agoIn general this is a good decision. Google does not need to collect all that data and should provide an education package that protects the children's data. However this will probably just means that Microsoft now has a mandated monopoly for the foreseeable future.
- tuhriel 3y agoYeah, I'm pretty torn up between those points. It is probably the only way to get non-Microsoft into the workflow of people, which reduces the lock-in syndrom with companies, where they use MS products because it's the one thing people know. on the other hand it's an advertising company getting devices with their software to the kids, combined with often IT-Admins School Directors which don't understand how to create policies and implement them correctly.
- bell-cot 3y agoCurrent HN Title: > Danish schools will no longer be allowed to use Chromebooks and Google platforms The ACTUAL Title of article, and leading paragraphs, may (sadly) tell a slightly different story: > Final Decision on Chromebook Case in Denmark > 03 Feb, 2024 > This week saw a conclusion on the Danish Chromebook case. The result, long-awaited by father and privacy activist Jesper Graugaard, shows that the Danish Data Protection Authority has issued an injunction regarding the tracking of children's personal data via Chromebook and Google platforms in schools. > From 1 August 2024 onwards, Danish schools will no longer be allowed to enable Chromebooks and Google platforms to collect students' personal data for processing. Each municipality will need to give an indication of how they will comply to this injunction by 1 March 2024.
- lifestyleguru 3y agoThey wanted to give them computer, but handed a data vacuum cleaner by ad company. Why not add a pack of cigarettes as well?
- Stubbs 3y agoThis headline is misleading. According to the article schools CAN still use Chromebooks but they cannot enable the tracking functionality on them. "From 1 August 2024 onwards, Danish schools will no longer be allowed to enable Chromebooks and Google platforms to collect students' personal data for processing."
- sumuyuda 3y agoCan you actually disable all the tracking? I suspect not, as it is core to Google’s business.
- westurner 3y agoNotes about the "Turn on Linux" button that's still greyed out for students: https://westurner.github.io/hnlog/ https://westurner.github.io/hnlog/ ctrl-f "Turn on Linux" Students cannot use Chromebooks to Linux, Python, or Git. Google Colab requires internet access to run a notebook. JupyterLite doesn't yet have "GitBash" in a terminal in WASM; though Chrome does now support local filesystem access for notebooks and data. VScode + Containers or no deal.
- grugagag 3y agoMy son who will be in first grade next year (currently he’s in K) received form the dept of education a chromebook. Im kind of horrified to be honest.
- ChrisArchitect 3y agoIs there a link somewhere to a webpage of the official Danish report or ruling? Press release? Why is this all reports via ppl in LinkedIn?
- ChrisArchitect 3y agohttps://www.datatilsynet.dk/presse-og-nyheder/nyhedsarkiv/2024/jan/datatilsynet-giver-paabud-i-chromebook-sag https://www.datatilsynet.dk/presse-og-nyheder/nyhedsarkiv/20... In Danish only I suppose
- theprivacydad 3y agoThanks, I have added the direct link to the Danish ruling in the article now. Good point.
- art3m 3y agoFrom the point of Google, what's the point of collecting students data?
- npteljes 3y agoI think a lot of data collection is done a bit like research is. The purposes are unclear, but the sea of data might become useful later on. Time might reveal trends, certain now-insignificant people might become significant, new data mining tools might be discovered that highlight something useful, things like this.
- saalweachter 3y ago> Meanwhile, Camilla Ley Valentin, the Director of DI Digital, the lobby organisation representing IT businesses in Denmark, posted this response from the side of the tech companies: > "But I cannot help but wonder about the decision that has landed. Because in this case, we are not talking about sensitive data relating to the individual child, which is used, for example, for marketing." > "The case concerns pseudonymized and aggregated usage data, such as data to measure a browser's performance or data to assess whether a button in a digital solution works better if it is green rather than blue."
- liveoneggs 3y agoThis article advocates for Linux (Chromebook is already Linux) on refurbished hardware (a random mix of old laptops in a large-scale deployment lol) and a laundry list of other "technology solutions" which would be, obviously, impossible for a school system to smoothly maintain or even deploy. I'm not sure privacydad has ever deployed or maintained an IT department. A school system is very complex. For what they offer - Chromebooks are actually very good. My kids' school computers are probably better than most of the corporate-issue windows laptops I've ever had. Google docs/classroom are also very good compared to grab-bag of apps my kids have to use. --- (general computers-in-school rant) --- The clear answer is to get computers out of schools as much as possible! I know they won't so if you happen to work on this kind of software - PLEASE advocate for shipping better software! My kids aren't even taught how to type but are expected to put together slide shows and things every other week. The testing and assignments done on the computer are full of UX issues like missing scroll bars and confusing + inconsistent <form>s - Some tests allow you to go back and read the material, some don't, some lose your answers in-between, etc. Every year there is massive churn of "apps" the school district was corrupted into buying to replace last year's crop of junk.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>This article advocates for Linux (Chromebook is already Linux) Because Chromebook is Linux kernel + Google proprietary ecosystem & spyware. When advocates say Linux they just mean the FOSS distros of Linux + FOSS software.
- xethos 3y agoWhen advocates say Linux they unironically (and sometimes unknowingly) mean GNU+Linux. This typically means a standard image the school can manage that has reasonable device management, with a company they can pay, and that their in-house IT can contact for support when the unexpected, unforseeable issues happen. I have yet to hear one suggest ChromeOS or any Android tablet; those run the Linux kernel, but don't (AFAIK) use nearly any of the GNU software. And I kind of get it. We've all seen the copy-pasta, and this division took on a life as a joke about a crazy person that takes things too far. But most of the people that make that joke seem to have forgotten that RMS frequently starts off looking crazy, but is nearly always vindicated. Sometimes it's five years, sometimes it's twenty. But it happens more often that not.
- mcosta 3y ago> It would be good to see checks on Google's dominance in schools, currently achieved via attractively priced hardware and free proprietary platforms built for this purpose. Is this an excuse to use Windows on schools? I mean... if you use expensive hardware on closed and paid proprietary platforms, then that problem goes away.
- pentagrama 3y agoMaybe Framework has a opportunity here. With his ethical ethos it can fit.
- izacus 3y agoThe title of this entry doesn't reflect what the the ruling says, it needs editing.
- deleted 3y ago[deleted]
- nonethewiser 3y ago> For activist Graugaard, the decision comes as a relief. He began his crusade against Chromebooks in school in his home town Elsinor over four years ago. While this week's report makes no reference to Jesper's initiatives, it is clear that this injunction could not have been issued without his tireless and sometimes solitary activism. Sounds like some crazy person just screwed up education for everyone.
- mensetmanusman 3y agoApple could have won the education market if they would have made a plastic ipad for $100.
- ballballball 3y agoClifford Stoll made a very entertaining argument against computers in the classroom in his 1999 book "High Tech Heretic".
- pjmlp 3y agoChromebooks are basically portable thin terminals, everything is and will be tracked server side. There is no way to really check if Google, or any other modern timesharing provider is behaving as expected.