4 ms·
Yet more evidence that TPMs, as commonly implemented in consumer devices, are worthless security theater.
by bhaney 3y ago
Yet more evidence that TPMs, as commonly implemented in consumer devices, are worthless security theater.
- Dylan16807 3y agoI don't think this applies to ones embedded in CPUs?
- DistractionRect 3y agoThey call that out specifically at the end, CPUs with their own embedded TPM aren't vulnerable to this kind of attack as all the communication occurs within the CPU itself.
- Dylan16807 3y agoLet me rephrase. I know this attack doesn't apply to commonplace embedded TPMs. I think the label of "security theater" doesn't apply to commonplace embedded TPMs.
- GauntletWizard 3y ago"embedded TPMs" are not commonplace. Intel has been pushing this hardest, and Intel still includes the TPM on the motherboard chipset and not the CPU itself in all consumer models, as of the 13th gen, at least.
- fomine3 3y agoIntel PTT is now quite common, isn't it?
- GauntletWizard 3y agoPTT is in the southbridge - That is, not the chip but motherboard chipset.
- nullindividual 3y agoSouthbridge was eliminated years ago. Intel PTT is present on the Intel PCH located on the processor die package, not a chip on the motherboard.
- Dylan16807 3y agoIsn't that only for laptop packages? I can find lots of current motherboards with a chipset on them, even specifically calling it a PCH.
- nullindividual 3y agoYep, you're correct. I misread. The Northbridge has been eliminated entirely. PCH is separate.
- Sakos 3y agoDon't Zen 2-4 all have fTPM?
- cookiengineer 3y ago...but but but they are ISO certified!!! The only thing that TPM prevents from reading your hard drive is jealous coworkers. Everyone else just steals your laptop and gets access anyways. Even the BIOS passwords are utterly useless because you can google the master passwords based on Laptop and model number these days. And if you can't, just flash a BIOS without a password on the memory chip via a 5$ ch341 adapter. As long as all hardware has backdoors for everything and nothing relies on real cryptography, there is no point in assuming it is secure. Embedded TPMs are the exception, for now, until one finds the next backdoor of broken undocumented CPU instructions. TPM was claimed to be secure so often in the past, at this point you must assume that every implementation is broken by default.
- BrandoElFollito 3y agoEveryone else steals your laptop, reinstalls Windows and sells it round the corner for 100€.
- cookiengineer 3y agoI never claimed that data theft and fencing hardware are mutually exclusive.
- BrandoElFollito 3y agoYou wrote "Everyone else just steals your laptop and gets access anyways". Nobody (as opposed to "everyone") will get access because nobody will try to do so. They will reinstall to resell. This is not a matter of exclusivity but of probability. If you split the world into "jealous coworkers" and "everyone else" then everyone else who wants your laptop does it to resell it and not access the data.
- zshrc 3y agoThere’s a certain Apple feature people like to hate on that works very well too…
- doikor 3y agoTPM integrated/embedded to the CPU is the most common way of having one and they are not vulnerable to this exploit.
- technion 3y agoEven in the older hardware from which this example that allowed this to occur, the threat to the "consumer" is the driver whose Uber you left your laptop in, for whom this attack is still out of the realm of plausibility.
- izacus 3y agoWorthless? Really? Laptops stolen every day are breached by all those thousands of thieves with logic analyzers bitbanging TPMs?
- cedilla 3y agoAh yes, because everything that doesn't solve every problem imaginable is instantly worthless. Sorry for the snark, but I'm getting tired of the pervasive cynicism. The situation got so much better since tpm and fde got commonplace. Laptop thieves no longer get your data, people no longer unwillingly expose their data when they sell their used disks, boot loader attacks got from easy to almost impossible. Yes, the CIA will still be able to read your disk, and maybe even just a motivated hacker. But that doesn't mean everything is useless.
- SpecialistK 3y agoI disagree. Is locking your front door worthless security theater if a thief can just smash the window? Some actors are more opportunistic (or stupid) than others and not everyone can have (or wants) bars across their windows. Similarly, BitLocker with a TPM may not be impenetrable, but it does stop a kid from booting Hiren's and running ntpasswd to change the local admin password and install Roblox on mom's work laptop. Or the employee dumping the SSD of company data before leaving for a competitor. Not every security measure needs to address every threat entirely. This is why we have risk assessments and defense in depth. This exploit may change some people's calculations or it may still be worthwhile based on the balance of security to convenience. But that isn't worthless.