3 ms·

A slave that isn't given tasks to do is still a slave. We can discuss the negative incentives of having them do labor and how that might pervert our legal syst

A slave that isn't given tasks to do is still a slave. We can discuss the negative incentives of having them do labor and how that might pervert our legal system (companies that benefit lobbying for harsher penalties on victimless crimes), but they are still denied their freedom regardless of which way that discussion goes.

lm28469 3y ago
The definitions of slave and slavery disagree with you
- SkyBelow 3y ago
  Oxford dictionary's definition requires ownership, so if the prisons/corporations do not actually legally own the person, then technically it doesn't qualify as slavery regardless of what sort of forced labor is required. But is such a distinction really helpful to the discussion? If someone owns another person and forces them to work but doesn't force them to obey them, does it technically count as not a slave because it doesn't meet all three requirements of Oxford dictionary's definition. Will it really help if we then start comparing dictionary definitions of "forced" or "owned"? Or even what counts as work. A prisoner required to clean their cells and return their trays after lunch are forms of labor that could be done by janitor... is that work? I don't think these matter once you have locked someone in a cage, even if it is a slightly gilded. Metaphorically speaking, no actual gold leaf or gold paint in use.
  - lm28469 3y ago
    As you say, saying "a prisoner who work is a slave" is already wrong, but saying "a prisoner who doesn't work is still a slave" is doubly wrong. > But is such a distinction really helpful to the discussion? Yes words have a meaning, changing the meaning of words is often used for dubious ideologies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTI_–_Lingua_Tertii_Imperii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTI_–_Lingua_Tertii_Imperii Something can be bad and not an "holocaust", someone can be abused an not a "slave", someone can be racist and not "literally hitler", this modern perversion of language doesn't do anything besides discrediting the person who uses it. We already have very specific words for very specific situations, we don't have to reuse loaded terms
  - cush 3y ago
    I know when I need to look up something pertaining to systemic racism, I reach for my Oxford.
burkaman 3y ago
I don't want to have a semantic argument about the definition of "slave", maybe we can agree on the term "involuntary servant". Prisoners should be denied as much freedom as is necessary to protect the rest of society and no more. Forcing people to work against their will does not protect anybody. It is not legitimate to say that if we deny one freedom we might as well deny all of them, they aren't free regardless.
- SkyBelow 3y ago
  >Prisoners should be denied as much freedom as is necessary to protect the rest of society and no more. I think many of those prisoners are already denied far more freedoms that necessary to keep them safe, so would that mean they are already worse off? The added labor is even worse, but I don't find that as the tipping point of good to bad yet a lot of the past discussion I've seen on if prison is slavery or not does seem to treat it as the tipping point. Getting past how we are naming things, my disagreement is that forced labor isn't what tips us from having a just prison system to an unjust one, and instead that we are mostly already over that tipping point even without forced labor being included.
  - burkaman 3y ago
    > would that mean they are already worse off Yes. I agree that forced labor is not a tipping point, I haven't seen it described that way but I wouldn't agree with someone who said that everything we do up to forced labor is fine.
cush 3y ago
I feel like the addition of being forced to work to benefit the man, while being paid little to nothing, while being physically abused, while losing the little free time they had, might just make those two things not the same.
EasyMark 3y ago
So are you seriously advocating that there be no consequences at all for those who would hurt others, and even kill them, just because you personally define it as "slavery"?

lm28469 3y ago

The definitions of slave and slavery disagree with you

SkyBelow 3y ago
Oxford dictionary's definition requires ownership, so if the prisons/corporations do not actually legally own the person, then technically it doesn't qualify as slavery regardless of what sort of forced labor is required. But is such a distinction really helpful to the discussion? If someone owns another person and forces them to work but doesn't force them to obey them, does it technically count as not a slave because it doesn't meet all three requirements of Oxford dictionary's definition. Will it really help if we then start comparing dictionary definitions of "forced" or "owned"? Or even what counts as work. A prisoner required to clean their cells and return their trays after lunch are forms of labor that could be done by janitor... is that work? I don't think these matter once you have locked someone in a cage, even if it is a slightly gilded. Metaphorically speaking, no actual gold leaf or gold paint in use.
- lm28469 3y ago
  As you say, saying "a prisoner who work is a slave" is already wrong, but saying "a prisoner who doesn't work is still a slave" is doubly wrong. > But is such a distinction really helpful to the discussion? Yes words have a meaning, changing the meaning of words is often used for dubious ideologies. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTI_–_Lingua_Tertii_Imperii https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/LTI_–_Lingua_Tertii_Imperii Something can be bad and not an "holocaust", someone can be abused an not a "slave", someone can be racist and not "literally hitler", this modern perversion of language doesn't do anything besides discrediting the person who uses it. We already have very specific words for very specific situations, we don't have to reuse loaded terms
- cush 3y ago
  I know when I need to look up something pertaining to systemic racism, I reach for my Oxford.

burkaman 3y ago

I don't want to have a semantic argument about the definition of "slave", maybe we can agree on the term "involuntary servant". Prisoners should be denied as much freedom as is necessary to protect the rest of society and no more. Forcing people to work against their will does not protect anybody. It is not legitimate to say that if we deny one freedom we might as well deny all of them, they aren't free regardless.

SkyBelow 3y ago
>Prisoners should be denied as much freedom as is necessary to protect the rest of society and no more. I think many of those prisoners are already denied far more freedoms that necessary to keep them safe, so would that mean they are already worse off? The added labor is even worse, but I don't find that as the tipping point of good to bad yet a lot of the past discussion I've seen on if prison is slavery or not does seem to treat it as the tipping point. Getting past how we are naming things, my disagreement is that forced labor isn't what tips us from having a just prison system to an unjust one, and instead that we are mostly already over that tipping point even without forced labor being included.
- burkaman 3y ago
  > would that mean they are already worse off Yes. I agree that forced labor is not a tipping point, I haven't seen it described that way but I wouldn't agree with someone who said that everything we do up to forced labor is fine.

cush 3y ago

I feel like the addition of being forced to work to benefit the man, while being paid little to nothing, while being physically abused, while losing the little free time they had, might just make those two things not the same.

EasyMark 3y ago

So are you seriously advocating that there be no consequences at all for those who would hurt others, and even kill them, just because you personally define it as "slavery"?