6 ms·

It's no surprise that Apple will use every dirty trick they can find to keep their advantage. Hopefully, the EU takes a short look at Apples proposal, laughs an

by sgift 3y ago

It's no surprise that Apple will use every dirty trick they can find to keep their advantage. Hopefully, the EU takes a short look at Apples proposal, laughs and tells them that if they want to sell their products in the EU they will have to provide choice for everyone.

madeofpalk 3y ago
Why would EU care? EU is about protecting EU residents. They don't have jurisdiction for what non-EU companies do outside of the EU.
- joshlk 3y ago
  Because it hurts EU customers by not applying the rules worldwide.
  - johannes1234321 3y ago
    EU has no legislative powers outside EU.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Oh, but you know they would love that. I kind of see the EU legislation similar to California. After CA passes laws, eventually, the other states do as well. I'd imagine that the EU hopes that their legislation will influence others at some point too.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        What CA laws do the other (presumably most or all) states pass? Some CA laws only have an effect outside California because the state has so many people (with money). So if you are designing a physical product to sell, it is cheaper to just make one that complies with California.
        dylan604 3y ago
        Exactly, with automobiles being the most obvious. At one point, if you bought a car outside of CA, you might have needed to make physical modifications to it before it could be registered in CA with the catalytic converter being an example that jumps to mind. Eventually, all of the other states required them as well, and the auto manufacturers just made all of there cars compatible with the CA reqs anyways. There are non-physical product laws as well. CA was a leader on medicinal cannabis, minimum wage, etc
    - sgift 3y ago
      Doesn't need to: You want into the EU market? EU demands this for the whole world. The EU can set any requirement it wants for market access. Such is the power of governments. And since someone will state that then other countries can do the same: Correct. And then companies will have to decide if the market in question is big enough to play by those rules.
      - shafyy 3y ago
        No, the EU cannot dictate what companies do in other countries. They can only require them to meet standards for services and products that are sold in the EU (or maybe if the companies are headquartered in EU).
        zilti 3y ago
        You're being really obtuse, aren't you. The EU can say "If you do not implement that functionality on all iPhones world-wide, then you are not allowed to sell any iPhone at all in the EU".
        shafyy 3y ago
        I mean, of course they can say it, but it would lead to a legal and trade agreement shit show.
        Moldoteck 3y ago
        Didn't eu/uk do exactly this by blocking an acquisition of an us company by another us company and the company listened?
        shafyy 3y ago
        Which one?
        jxdxbx 3y ago
        Adobe / Figma, and Amazon / iRobot. And to the point of the discussion, there are no "limits" to what jurisdiction governments have. Governments--the United States especially but many others--does it all the time, especially as concerns financial matters. Many countries have declared that they have jurisdiction over crimes against humanity committed any time, anywhere, by anyone. China has penalized American companies for activities involving Americans in America. However the EU probably has self-imposed limits (or imposed by the member states) and as a practical matter only large or powerful states can get away with it.
    - toyg 3y ago
      Nor do the US, but most legal impositions (no accounts under 13 years, dmca, etc) get replicated around the world because services want to work in the US market. (Also, guess what happens if you copy Hollywood movies a bit too much? Jurisdiction goes out of the window... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom#High_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom#High_Court )
  - dylan604 3y ago
    How?
  - mc32 3y ago
    What happens when markets have opposing requirements? Ex: China, Russia, KSA, EU? No, they cannot dictate rules world-wide. Each market can dictate market requirements but they can't have them imposed in other jurisdictions they have no control over.
    - sgift 3y ago
      Then the company in question will have to decide which market is more important to them and follow the rules of that market, while not being present on the other. Others have already noted the risk of a trade war following from that, but that doesn't preclude the EU/US/China/.. from still doing it. It's just a matter of how important they think the rule is.
  - ecf 3y ago
    > Because it hurts EU customers by not applying the rules worldwide. It’s an entirely expected outcome for wanting to enact one-of-a-kind laws that force a foreign company into doing something they’ve obviously wanted to avoid.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  Ever feeling bored and want to ignite an online all-out war? Comment that the GDPR doesn’t apply to someone living in the US and running a web server there. Once that firestorm is rolling, observe that people would lambaste the US if it claimed its laws applied everywhere. (I genuinely believe both of those statements, and don’t mean either of them as trolling. Boy howdy, does it ever have the same end result though.)
  - Topfi 3y ago
    > [...] GDPR doesn’t apply to someone living in the US and running a web server there. Only if they ensure that they have no EU-based users [0]. So yeah, unless you actively block "data subjects who are in the Union", it does apply to someone living in and running a server in the US. It's part of what makes GDPR so great for us citizens, the beauty that is the Brussels effect. [0] Article 3(2) of the GDPR
    - xoa 3y ago
      Absolutely and utterly wrong. The EU has zero jurisdiction in the US and no treaty covering GDPR. The US is not extraditing Americans to the EU for violating the GDPR, anymore than it is for violating EU, Chinese or Russian censorship laws. If the EU wants to setup their own Great Firewall and block off America that's their right, but absent a treaty and domestic implementation their laws are not our problem. No different from anywhere else. If the EU wanted to prosecute an American for it then sure said American should not travel to the EU ever but that's easy.
    - kstrauser 3y ago
      See? That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. Imagine me saying a US law applies to someone in Prague because the US law said it did. I’d be rightfully laughed at.
      - _djo_ 3y ago
        Why? That's already the case: US law applies to US citizens and there are already some laws that are extraterritorial and impose burdens that companies in other countries must comply with. For instance, financial institutions in Europe have special reporting and KYC requirements for the accounts of American citizens, even if they're long-term residents in European countries and dual-citizens, because of FATCA. Extraterritoriality is not unique to the GDPR and the EU, nor is it new.
- noirscape 3y ago
  They care insofar it can affect EU residents outside the EU (this legislation ignores physical regions; it's your nationality in a EU country that makes you eligible for these rights). With the GDPR, the easiest solution is to make this info a voluntary choice for the user to say or to assume all your users are EU residents. Microsoft is making their compliance with the DMA an option the user could pick during the OOBE. I assume Apple will use the region choice at the start of configuring iOS to do the same thing. I can only think of one device maker that actively tries to region check the originating IP for legal compliance and that's Nintendo (who just start tracking you more if you're an EU citizen in say, the US.)
  - madeofpalk 3y ago
    > I assume Apple will use the region choice at the start of configuring iOS to do the same thing. Nope! New countryd process uses Apple ID address, course-level location/carrier country and device region to determine DMA region locking, unfortuantely. If one thing's been clear though the Apple DMA stuff so far, it's that Apple will go to lengths to maintain their status quo in all aspects. https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/25/ios-16-restrict-features-based-on-location/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/25/ios-16-restrict-features-base... https://9to5mac.com/2024/01/25/apple-check-iphone-eligible-sideloading/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/01/25/apple-check-iphone-eligible-s...
    - noirscape 3y ago
      Why did I even think of offering them the potential of not doing it the most malicious way possible lmao. Wouldn't be surprised if that's going to get smacked down - tying "requiring an Apple ID" to being able to exercise your rights doesn't seem like something the EU would be happy with, considering the GDPR 'n such.

by sgift 3y ago

madeofpalk 3y ago

Why would EU care? EU is about protecting EU residents. They don't have jurisdiction for what non-EU companies do outside of the EU.

joshlk 3y ago
Because it hurts EU customers by not applying the rules worldwide.
- johannes1234321 3y ago
  EU has no legislative powers outside EU.
  - dylan604 3y ago
    Oh, but you know they would love that. I kind of see the EU legislation similar to California. After CA passes laws, eventually, the other states do as well. I'd imagine that the EU hopes that their legislation will influence others at some point too.
    - lotsofpulp 3y ago
      What CA laws do the other (presumably most or all) states pass? Some CA laws only have an effect outside California because the state has so many people (with money). So if you are designing a physical product to sell, it is cheaper to just make one that complies with California.
      - dylan604 3y ago
        Exactly, with automobiles being the most obvious. At one point, if you bought a car outside of CA, you might have needed to make physical modifications to it before it could be registered in CA with the catalytic converter being an example that jumps to mind. Eventually, all of the other states required them as well, and the auto manufacturers just made all of there cars compatible with the CA reqs anyways. There are non-physical product laws as well. CA was a leader on medicinal cannabis, minimum wage, etc
  - sgift 3y ago
    Doesn't need to: You want into the EU market? EU demands this for the whole world. The EU can set any requirement it wants for market access. Such is the power of governments. And since someone will state that then other countries can do the same: Correct. And then companies will have to decide if the market in question is big enough to play by those rules.
    - shafyy 3y ago
      No, the EU cannot dictate what companies do in other countries. They can only require them to meet standards for services and products that are sold in the EU (or maybe if the companies are headquartered in EU).
      - zilti 3y ago
        You're being really obtuse, aren't you. The EU can say "If you do not implement that functionality on all iPhones world-wide, then you are not allowed to sell any iPhone at all in the EU".
        shafyy 3y ago
        I mean, of course they can say it, but it would lead to a legal and trade agreement shit show.
      - Moldoteck 3y ago
        Didn't eu/uk do exactly this by blocking an acquisition of an us company by another us company and the company listened?
        shafyy 3y ago
        Which one?
        jxdxbx 3y ago
        Adobe / Figma, and Amazon / iRobot. And to the point of the discussion, there are no "limits" to what jurisdiction governments have. Governments--the United States especially but many others--does it all the time, especially as concerns financial matters. Many countries have declared that they have jurisdiction over crimes against humanity committed any time, anywhere, by anyone. China has penalized American companies for activities involving Americans in America. However the EU probably has self-imposed limits (or imposed by the member states) and as a practical matter only large or powerful states can get away with it.
  - toyg 3y ago
    Nor do the US, but most legal impositions (no accounts under 13 years, dmca, etc) get replicated around the world because services want to work in the US market. (Also, guess what happens if you copy Hollywood movies a bit too much? Jurisdiction goes out of the window... https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom#High_Court https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kim_Dotcom#High_Court )
- dylan604 3y ago
  How?
- mc32 3y ago
  What happens when markets have opposing requirements? Ex: China, Russia, KSA, EU? No, they cannot dictate rules world-wide. Each market can dictate market requirements but they can't have them imposed in other jurisdictions they have no control over.
  - sgift 3y ago
    Then the company in question will have to decide which market is more important to them and follow the rules of that market, while not being present on the other. Others have already noted the risk of a trade war following from that, but that doesn't preclude the EU/US/China/.. from still doing it. It's just a matter of how important they think the rule is.
- ecf 3y ago
  > Because it hurts EU customers by not applying the rules worldwide. It’s an entirely expected outcome for wanting to enact one-of-a-kind laws that force a foreign company into doing something they’ve obviously wanted to avoid.
kstrauser 3y ago
Ever feeling bored and want to ignite an online all-out war? Comment that the GDPR doesn’t apply to someone living in the US and running a web server there. Once that firestorm is rolling, observe that people would lambaste the US if it claimed its laws applied everywhere. (I genuinely believe both of those statements, and don’t mean either of them as trolling. Boy howdy, does it ever have the same end result though.)
- Topfi 3y ago
  > [...] GDPR doesn’t apply to someone living in the US and running a web server there. Only if they ensure that they have no EU-based users [0]. So yeah, unless you actively block "data subjects who are in the Union", it does apply to someone living in and running a server in the US. It's part of what makes GDPR so great for us citizens, the beauty that is the Brussels effect. [0] Article 3(2) of the GDPR
  - xoa 3y ago
    Absolutely and utterly wrong. The EU has zero jurisdiction in the US and no treaty covering GDPR. The US is not extraditing Americans to the EU for violating the GDPR, anymore than it is for violating EU, Chinese or Russian censorship laws. If the EU wants to setup their own Great Firewall and block off America that's their right, but absent a treaty and domestic implementation their laws are not our problem. No different from anywhere else. If the EU wanted to prosecute an American for it then sure said American should not travel to the EU ever but that's easy.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    See? That’s the kind of thing I’m talking about. Imagine me saying a US law applies to someone in Prague because the US law said it did. I’d be rightfully laughed at.
    - _djo_ 3y ago
      Why? That's already the case: US law applies to US citizens and there are already some laws that are extraterritorial and impose burdens that companies in other countries must comply with. For instance, financial institutions in Europe have special reporting and KYC requirements for the accounts of American citizens, even if they're long-term residents in European countries and dual-citizens, because of FATCA. Extraterritoriality is not unique to the GDPR and the EU, nor is it new.
noirscape 3y ago
They care insofar it can affect EU residents outside the EU (this legislation ignores physical regions; it's your nationality in a EU country that makes you eligible for these rights). With the GDPR, the easiest solution is to make this info a voluntary choice for the user to say or to assume all your users are EU residents. Microsoft is making their compliance with the DMA an option the user could pick during the OOBE. I assume Apple will use the region choice at the start of configuring iOS to do the same thing. I can only think of one device maker that actively tries to region check the originating IP for legal compliance and that's Nintendo (who just start tracking you more if you're an EU citizen in say, the US.)
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  > I assume Apple will use the region choice at the start of configuring iOS to do the same thing. Nope! New countryd process uses Apple ID address, course-level location/carrier country and device region to determine DMA region locking, unfortuantely. If one thing's been clear though the Apple DMA stuff so far, it's that Apple will go to lengths to maintain their status quo in all aspects. https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/25/ios-16-restrict-features-based-on-location/ https://9to5mac.com/2023/04/25/ios-16-restrict-features-base... https://9to5mac.com/2024/01/25/apple-check-iphone-eligible-sideloading/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/01/25/apple-check-iphone-eligible-s...
  - noirscape 3y ago
    Why did I even think of offering them the potential of not doing it the most malicious way possible lmao. Wouldn't be surprised if that's going to get smacked down - tying "requiring an Apple ID" to being able to exercise your rights doesn't seem like something the EU would be happy with, considering the GDPR 'n such.