6 ms·

Google and Mozilla don't like Apple's new iOS browser rules

73 points by Wasserpuncher 3y ago

joshstrange 3y ago
They are mad they will have to maintain 2 browsers (one for the EU and one for everywhere else), that's it. I'm not sure what they expected. I don't doubt that Apple will be forced to allow third-party browsers in more regions now that this exists. Now countries can just point the DMA (or parts of it) and say "That, I'd like that please" and Apple can enable it in their region (I know it's not that simple but it is built now, more countries are going to require it assuming the EU experiment doesn't fall flat on its face). Of course we are still waiting to see if the EU accepts Apple's proposal. Anyone that's ever submitted an app for review (to Apple or Google, but let's be honest more-so for Apple) know this feeling of uncertainty and it's a bit a schadenfreude in that for sure. As much as I like Apple's products I can't but hope they get a few bad "reviewers".
- AshleysBrain 3y ago
  I think it's worse than that: Apple managed to wrangle it so the new rules apply specifically to iPhone, and not iPad [1]. So the new rules apply only to iPhone devices in the EU. So then there's the absurd situation that, say, a Firefox user in the EU using the Firefox browser on both iPhone and iPad will in fact be using two entirely different browser engines. Imagine what a burden on support that will be, having to answer questions like "why do websites look/work differently between iPhone and iPad when I'm using Firefox on both?" [1] https://9to5mac.com/2024/01/26/ios-17-app-stores-and-more-ipad-changes/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/01/26/ios-17-app-stores-and-more-ip...
  - fingerlocks 3y ago
    Have you ever asked a lay-person which browser engine they prefer? It’s like asking which map tile pyramid renderer you prefer, Google Maps or Apple Maps, or Mapbox? No not the content or the features, the renderer. That abstract thing behind the scenes that is far from the forefront of your mind when you’re engaged with actual content.
    - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
      right, which is what they parent commenter is talking about - since the user will not understand this level of abstraction how do you answer why does it work differently between iPhone and iPad? Or perhaps I'm misreading you and your post is just in agreement?
  - noirscape 3y ago
    To be clear they didn't manage to wrangle that yet. They're currently trying to argue that and are just behaving as if that's already the case; the actual question on if the iPad counts as a separate store hasn't been decided on by the EU. Personally I highly doubt this trick will work in court; moreso than any other Apple product, iPad and iPhone are running the same software and the stores have enough overlap that you can find iPhone apps in the iPad store.
sgift 3y ago
It's no surprise that Apple will use every dirty trick they can find to keep their advantage. Hopefully, the EU takes a short look at Apples proposal, laughs and tells them that if they want to sell their products in the EU they will have to provide choice for everyone.
- madeofpalk 3y ago
  Why would EU care? EU is about protecting EU residents. They don't have jurisdiction for what non-EU companies do outside of the EU.
  - joshlk 3y ago
    Because it hurts EU customers by not applying the rules worldwide.
    - johannes1234321 3y ago
      EU has no legislative powers outside EU.
      - dylan604 3y ago
        Oh, but you know they would love that. I kind of see the EU legislation similar to California. After CA passes laws, eventually, the other states do as well. I'd imagine that the EU hopes that their legislation will influence others at some point too.
        lotsofpulp 3y ago
        What CA laws do the other (presumably most or all) states pass? Some CA laws only have an effect outside California because the state has so many people (with money). So if you are designing a physical product to sell, it is cheaper to just make one that complies with California.
        3y ago
blitz_skull 3y ago
[flagged]
- RHSeeger 3y ago
  > the very high caliber of software that must be put forth to live on Apple hardware No offense, but... that's nowhere near the truth. There's a ton of horrible apps and scamware on their app store.
  - deaddodo 3y ago
    Yeah. If an app brings a high value to Apple with a low-nil chance of repercussions towards them, it has a very high chance of being approved for the app store. Quality or not.
Waterluvian 3y ago
The browser business is clearly worth billions annually given how much they pay each other for things like default search pole position. Completely unsurprising that Apple is not going to throw in the towel when a single region mandates necessary changes.
madeofpalk 3y ago
> Apple isn’t serious about supporting web browser or engine choice on iOS I don't think this is some big gotcha - this has always been clear. Seems like there's just one rule they don't like, that it's EU only. Which is fair enough. Personally, I don't see why this is the hill Apple's dying on. They seem to have put in a fair amount of effort into creating a problem and APIs to allow for other browser engines to exist as peers to Safari (allowing JIT, multi-process, hooks into Lockdown Mode etc), but then restricted that all to the EU. This one seems more ideological than financial (like the other DMA-forced additions Apple is doing). But really - its not really clear to me what benefits users get from this. Safari (on iOS or Mac) hasn't stagnated and is a highly performing browser, better than Chrome and Firefox in some regards. It supports some APIs first that others lag on, while it lags on others. I am a web developer, and I really do not agree with any claims that Safari is somehow worse than other browsers. Meanwhile, people are shipping 'new web browsers', that users seem to like, by using the webkit engine under the hood. UI, features, sync, etc are what actually matters to users.
- coldpie 3y ago
  > its not really clear to me what benefits users get from this I really want to use a browser with uBlock Origin and NoScript, because the web is a fucking nightmare without them. To my knowledge, Firefox is the only browser that supports those on mobile, but it's Android-only, and I'm currently on iOS. Being able to use "real" Firefox on iOS would let me use the extensions I want.
  - temp0826 3y ago
    You should give Kagi's Orion browser a try. Extensions were my biggest hangup using ff on iOS. Orion has been a joy since switching (supports ff and chrome extensions, they mostly work but I've encountered a couple bugs).
    - coldpie 3y ago
      Thanks, I will give it a look.
joshlk 3y ago
If Apple maintains that it will only support new web engines in the EU, the EU will step in and force Apple to allow it worldwide. So it's a losing battle for them.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  How pray tell is the EU going to tell Apple what they have to do in the rest of the world?
  - devit 3y ago
    They could make it a condition of doing business in the EU (which of course leaves Apple the option of pulling out from the EU). Not clear though whether they have any interest in doing that.
    - scarface_74 3y ago
      “Apple announces the formation of a new company - Apple EU”.
  - jsnell 3y ago
    Well, telling is easy. You just tell them. What you're really wondering about is how they would compel Apple to do it, not just tell. If this were found to be a violation of DMA, they could fine them for absurd amounts of money. If Apple paid the fines but didn't fix the underlying issue, they'd be fined even more. After suffient repeat offenses the EU would force Apple to make structural changes such as break up their businesses. If Apple chose to not pay the fines, break up, etc, they would need to stop operating in the EU, or run the risks of their assets being seized, their employees arrested, etc. It's only at the point where Apple left the EU that there's no more leverage on them. And this is Apple, they're not going to leave a market with money. They didn't even leave China. (But the real key question is whether there's a reasonable interpretation of the DMA where the companies need to comply even outside of the EU.)
    - scarface_74 3y ago
Crosseye_Jack 3y ago
Well Moz and Google have more clout with the regulators than your avg joe. So hope they kick up a fuss on behalf pf all of us and not just their own interests (looking at you Google)
_fat_santa 3y ago
I wonder why apple is so hell bent on enforcing Safari/Webkit as the browser engine? My assumption is that if they allow Mozilla/Chrome to implement their own engines, they could add better support for PWA's, which would directly cut into Apple's AppStore business. But that answer doesn't seem satisfactory as you'd think that PWA's would be huge on Android devices without such restrictions but even then, PWA's are not very popular. My personal bet: Apple will relent and roll out "browser engine choice" globally within 1-2 years.
- scarface_74 3y ago
  It came out in the Eoic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases. Those aren’t going to be on the web because of the lack of friction of in app purchases.
- freediver 3y ago
  Mostly because they care about user experience of people using their phones. There is nothing that comes close to WebKit in terms of performance/battery life on Apple devices, even on desktop, where other browser vendors have been able to develop their rendering engineswithout restrictions, WebKit is still far ahead.
  - lostmsu 3y ago
    > There is nothing that comes close to WebKit in terms of performance/battery life on Apple devices, even on desktop Now this is a true gem.
  - jwells89 3y ago
    WebKit is also a bit better than other engines in “nativeness” too, with e.g. in-page widget behavior and such. Blink is second best here probably thanks to its shared heritage with WebKit, and Gecko is last with unstyled widgets and little behaviors being “off”. The battery life/heat thing is big though, Safari is much better in that category and it seems like that property extends to WebKit browsers on Linux too in my limited trials with GNOME Web, so it’s not just a case of Apple using private APIs to gain an advantage or whatever. It’s a difference in architecture and likely dev culture — efficiency simply doesn’t get prioritized to the same extent by the dev teams of the other two engines. With Blink especially there seems to be more interest in coming up with APIs to give devs access to the contents of the user’s fridge or whathaveyou.
octacat 3y ago
At least real life stores do not check, where you live or which stuff you already have before denying you access to buy something they sell. Online dev world is so wonderful, cannot wait when money would be fully digital. So many opportunities

73 points by Wasserpuncher 3y ago

They are mad they will have to maintain 2 browsers (one for the EU and one for everywhere else), that's it. I'm not sure what they expected. I don't doubt that Apple will be forced to allow third-party browsers in more regions now that this exists. Now countries can just point the DMA (or parts of it) and say "That, I'd like that please" and Apple can enable it in their region (I know it's not that simple but it is built now, more countries are going to require it assuming the EU experiment doesn't fall flat on its face). Of course we are still waiting to see if the EU accepts Apple's proposal. Anyone that's ever submitted an app for review (to Apple or Google, but let's be honest more-so for Apple) know this feeling of uncertainty and it's a bit a schadenfreude in that for sure. As much as I like Apple's products I can't but hope they get a few bad "reviewers".

AshleysBrain 3y ago
I think it's worse than that: Apple managed to wrangle it so the new rules apply specifically to iPhone, and not iPad [1]. So the new rules apply only to iPhone devices in the EU. So then there's the absurd situation that, say, a Firefox user in the EU using the Firefox browser on both iPhone and iPad will in fact be using two entirely different browser engines. Imagine what a burden on support that will be, having to answer questions like "why do websites look/work differently between iPhone and iPad when I'm using Firefox on both?" [1] https://9to5mac.com/2024/01/26/ios-17-app-stores-and-more-ipad-changes/ https://9to5mac.com/2024/01/26/ios-17-app-stores-and-more-ip...
- fingerlocks 3y ago
  Have you ever asked a lay-person which browser engine they prefer? It’s like asking which map tile pyramid renderer you prefer, Google Maps or Apple Maps, or Mapbox? No not the content or the features, the renderer. That abstract thing behind the scenes that is far from the forefront of your mind when you’re engaged with actual content.
  - bryanrasmussen 3y ago
    right, which is what they parent commenter is talking about - since the user will not understand this level of abstraction how do you answer why does it work differently between iPhone and iPad? Or perhaps I'm misreading you and your post is just in agreement?
- noirscape 3y ago
  To be clear they didn't manage to wrangle that yet. They're currently trying to argue that and are just behaving as if that's already the case; the actual question on if the iPad counts as a separate store hasn't been decided on by the EU. Personally I highly doubt this trick will work in court; moreso than any other Apple product, iPad and iPhone are running the same software and the stores have enough overlap that you can find iPhone apps in the iPad store.

sgift 3y ago

It's no surprise that Apple will use every dirty trick they can find to keep their advantage. Hopefully, the EU takes a short look at Apples proposal, laughs and tells them that if they want to sell their products in the EU they will have to provide choice for everyone.

madeofpalk 3y ago
Why would EU care? EU is about protecting EU residents. They don't have jurisdiction for what non-EU companies do outside of the EU.
- joshlk 3y ago
  Because it hurts EU customers by not applying the rules worldwide.
  - johannes1234321 3y ago
    EU has no legislative powers outside EU.
    - dylan604 3y ago
      Oh, but you know they would love that. I kind of see the EU legislation similar to California. After CA passes laws, eventually, the other states do as well. I'd imagine that the EU hopes that their legislation will influence others at some point too.
      - lotsofpulp 3y ago
        What CA laws do the other (presumably most or all) states pass? Some CA laws only have an effect outside California because the state has so many people (with money). So if you are designing a physical product to sell, it is cheaper to just make one that complies with California.
        3y ago

blitz_skull 3y ago

[flagged]

RHSeeger 3y ago
> the very high caliber of software that must be put forth to live on Apple hardware No offense, but... that's nowhere near the truth. There's a ton of horrible apps and scamware on their app store.
- deaddodo 3y ago
  Yeah. If an app brings a high value to Apple with a low-nil chance of repercussions towards them, it has a very high chance of being approved for the app store. Quality or not.

Waterluvian 3y ago

The browser business is clearly worth billions annually given how much they pay each other for things like default search pole position. Completely unsurprising that Apple is not going to throw in the towel when a single region mandates necessary changes.

madeofpalk 3y ago

> Apple isn’t serious about supporting web browser or engine choice on iOS I don't think this is some big gotcha - this has always been clear. Seems like there's just one rule they don't like, that it's EU only. Which is fair enough. Personally, I don't see why this is the hill Apple's dying on. They seem to have put in a fair amount of effort into creating a problem and APIs to allow for other browser engines to exist as peers to Safari (allowing JIT, multi-process, hooks into Lockdown Mode etc), but then restricted that all to the EU. This one seems more ideological than financial (like the other DMA-forced additions Apple is doing). But really - its not really clear to me what benefits users get from this. Safari (on iOS or Mac) hasn't stagnated and is a highly performing browser, better than Chrome and Firefox in some regards. It supports some APIs first that others lag on, while it lags on others. I am a web developer, and I really do not agree with any claims that Safari is somehow worse than other browsers. Meanwhile, people are shipping 'new web browsers', that users seem to like, by using the webkit engine under the hood. UI, features, sync, etc are what actually matters to users.

coldpie 3y ago
> its not really clear to me what benefits users get from this I really want to use a browser with uBlock Origin and NoScript, because the web is a fucking nightmare without them. To my knowledge, Firefox is the only browser that supports those on mobile, but it's Android-only, and I'm currently on iOS. Being able to use "real" Firefox on iOS would let me use the extensions I want.
- temp0826 3y ago
  You should give Kagi's Orion browser a try. Extensions were my biggest hangup using ff on iOS. Orion has been a joy since switching (supports ff and chrome extensions, they mostly work but I've encountered a couple bugs).
  - coldpie 3y ago
    Thanks, I will give it a look.

joshlk 3y ago

If Apple maintains that it will only support new web engines in the EU, the EU will step in and force Apple to allow it worldwide. So it's a losing battle for them.

scarface_74 3y ago
How pray tell is the EU going to tell Apple what they have to do in the rest of the world?
- devit 3y ago
  They could make it a condition of doing business in the EU (which of course leaves Apple the option of pulling out from the EU). Not clear though whether they have any interest in doing that.
  - scarface_74 3y ago
    “Apple announces the formation of a new company - Apple EU”.
- jsnell 3y ago
  Well, telling is easy. You just tell them. What you're really wondering about is how they would compel Apple to do it, not just tell. If this were found to be a violation of DMA, they could fine them for absurd amounts of money. If Apple paid the fines but didn't fix the underlying issue, they'd be fined even more. After suffient repeat offenses the EU would force Apple to make structural changes such as break up their businesses. If Apple chose to not pay the fines, break up, etc, they would need to stop operating in the EU, or run the risks of their assets being seized, their employees arrested, etc. It's only at the point where Apple left the EU that there's no more leverage on them. And this is Apple, they're not going to leave a market with money. They didn't even leave China. (But the real key question is whether there's a reasonable interpretation of the DMA where the companies need to comply even outside of the EU.)
  - scarface_74 3y ago

Crosseye_Jack 3y ago

Well Moz and Google have more clout with the regulators than your avg joe. So hope they kick up a fuss on behalf pf all of us and not just their own interests (looking at you Google)

_fat_santa 3y ago

I wonder why apple is so hell bent on enforcing Safari/Webkit as the browser engine? My assumption is that if they allow Mozilla/Chrome to implement their own engines, they could add better support for PWA's, which would directly cut into Apple's AppStore business. But that answer doesn't seem satisfactory as you'd think that PWA's would be huge on Android devices without such restrictions but even then, PWA's are not very popular. My personal bet: Apple will relent and roll out "browser engine choice" globally within 1-2 years.

scarface_74 3y ago
It came out in the Eoic trial that 90% of App Store revenue comes from games and in app purchases. Those aren’t going to be on the web because of the lack of friction of in app purchases.
freediver 3y ago
Mostly because they care about user experience of people using their phones. There is nothing that comes close to WebKit in terms of performance/battery life on Apple devices, even on desktop, where other browser vendors have been able to develop their rendering engineswithout restrictions, WebKit is still far ahead.
- lostmsu 3y ago
  > There is nothing that comes close to WebKit in terms of performance/battery life on Apple devices, even on desktop Now this is a true gem.
- jwells89 3y ago
  WebKit is also a bit better than other engines in “nativeness” too, with e.g. in-page widget behavior and such. Blink is second best here probably thanks to its shared heritage with WebKit, and Gecko is last with unstyled widgets and little behaviors being “off”. The battery life/heat thing is big though, Safari is much better in that category and it seems like that property extends to WebKit browsers on Linux too in my limited trials with GNOME Web, so it’s not just a case of Apple using private APIs to gain an advantage or whatever. It’s a difference in architecture and likely dev culture — efficiency simply doesn’t get prioritized to the same extent by the dev teams of the other two engines. With Blink especially there seems to be more interest in coming up with APIs to give devs access to the contents of the user’s fridge or whathaveyou.

octacat 3y ago

At least real life stores do not check, where you live or which stuff you already have before denying you access to buy something they sell. Online dev world is so wonderful, cannot wait when money would be fully digital. So many opportunities