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Whatever your opinion of Elon is, it’s extremely generous to say he comes from an engineering background and just flat-out wrong to say he comes from the type o

Whatever your opinion of Elon is, it’s extremely generous to say he comes from an engineering background and just flat-out wrong to say he comes from the type of traditional engineering background relevant to companies like Boeing (the PE type of engineering). If you approve of Elon as a leader, he is basically the embodiment of “you do not need to be an engineer to run a highly technical company”

rpmisms 3y ago
I think describing Elon as a small-e engineer (not designing powertrains, but at least understanding them) is accurate, and saying that an an engineering-first mindset is important for companies like Boeing and SpaceX would ring true. Engineering background is different than engineering mindset.
- afavour 3y ago
  People contain multitudes. While I would agree that Elon has more of an engineer mindset than other CEOs I’m still not convinced that would amount to much. A look at Tesla build quality, or that ridiculous demo where the Cybertruck window smashed are just two things that immediately come to mind to cast doubt on Musk’s commitment to engineering. I think he’s a big picture guy, I absolutely think issues like those we're seeing with Boeing could happen under his watch.
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    I'm not saying Elon would be a good aerospace CEO, although he seems to do well at SpaceX. I'm saying that his attitude towards technical subjects ("this is ABSOLUTELY my problem and I should understand what we make") is what airplane-making CEOs should be going for. Edit: airlines don't build planes
- bee_rider 3y ago
  What do you mean by the engineering mindset? To me, it is the way of looking at the world that attempts to transform intractable real-world problems into tractable ones by translating them into the battle-tested model(s) of your field. For example, the RLC model of circuits is certainly not able to express all of EM physics but it sure is easy to solve problems in (although, I only did the degree, maybe working engineers dip back down into physics more often). Anyway it isn’t obvious how Musk has that mindset, he seems obsessed with innovation rather than tradition, and he seems to have styled himself as some kind of polymath tech guy rather than an expert in any particular field.
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    Good point, I should define my terms better. I mean holding the product and how it's built above MBA stuff, which is the part I admire about Musk companies. If they want to cut costs, they typically find a new technique or new process to build a part, instead of reaching for typical MBA levers like new suppliers or outsourcing. Your point about transforming intractability is cogent and I think we agree. To your last point about polymath tactics, you're right to a degree, but you can also watch Everyday Astronaut's SpaceX factory tour and realize that it's far more than a basic understanding, which is probably a big part of SpaceX's wild success.
- BoxFour 3y ago
  What criteria are we using to evaluate this? If the anecdotes are accurate, and based on your own description, it seems Elon Musk is a CEO who makes an effort to thoroughly grasp the products his company develops. That's commendable. This doesn't necessarily make him even a small-e engineer, even in the context of the broader definitions used today. It certainly doesn't make him "someone of engineering lineage," as the original comment implied was essential for Boeing's success, or even "someone with an engineering background" like the comment I replied to. It's also certainly not clear that Elon has an engineering-first mindset, nor that that would even be helpful for many of the businesses he runs. I can think of plenty of examples of Elon putting business above all else plenty of times, and I don't mean that as a dig: It's often the smart move for the monetary gain of all involved. And just to be clear, this not a commentary at all on about whether Elon would be effective in running Boeing. To be blunt: I don't care about that conversation.
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    > If the anecdotes are accurate > It's also certainly not clear that Elon has an engineering-first mindset If A, then B. Struggle with definitions all we want, Boeing needs a dose of Musk's attitude towards engineering and manufacturing. It is the most important thing they do, and I don't think the C-suite understands that. That's the most distilled version of what I'm saying. Musk is the best recent example of this attitude, but Henry Ford is an excellent older example.
    - BoxFour 3y ago
      > If A, then B If Elon's thoroughly understands the products his companies develop, he has an engineering-first mindset? That logic would also apply to many CEOs we wouldn't consider "engineering-first" CEOs. > Struggle with definitions all we want, For me, this is the only discussion. My focus is not at all on whether Elon would be a good fit for Boeing. I don't give a shit about that conversation.
      - rpmisms 3y ago
        I don't want Elon to run Boeing, that's never been part of my argument. I want leadership at Boeing that elevates engineers, understands that engineering is absolutely critical, and punishes bean-counters for pushing against a good engineering culture.
- KerrAvon 3y ago
  He does not understand them. You’ve fallen for his PR, I’m afraid.
  - rpmisms 3y ago
    Can you provide some substantive evidence on that? Just curious if you actually have a good example, or if you bought into the other PR.
throwaway2037 3y ago
> PE type of engineering What is PE?

rpmisms 3y ago

I think describing Elon as a small-e engineer (not designing powertrains, but at least understanding them) is accurate, and saying that an an engineering-first mindset is important for companies like Boeing and SpaceX would ring true. Engineering background is different than engineering mindset.

afavour 3y ago
People contain multitudes. While I would agree that Elon has more of an engineer mindset than other CEOs I’m still not convinced that would amount to much. A look at Tesla build quality, or that ridiculous demo where the Cybertruck window smashed are just two things that immediately come to mind to cast doubt on Musk’s commitment to engineering. I think he’s a big picture guy, I absolutely think issues like those we're seeing with Boeing could happen under his watch.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  I'm not saying Elon would be a good aerospace CEO, although he seems to do well at SpaceX. I'm saying that his attitude towards technical subjects ("this is ABSOLUTELY my problem and I should understand what we make") is what airplane-making CEOs should be going for. Edit: airlines don't build planes
bee_rider 3y ago
What do you mean by the engineering mindset? To me, it is the way of looking at the world that attempts to transform intractable real-world problems into tractable ones by translating them into the battle-tested model(s) of your field. For example, the RLC model of circuits is certainly not able to express all of EM physics but it sure is easy to solve problems in (although, I only did the degree, maybe working engineers dip back down into physics more often). Anyway it isn’t obvious how Musk has that mindset, he seems obsessed with innovation rather than tradition, and he seems to have styled himself as some kind of polymath tech guy rather than an expert in any particular field.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  Good point, I should define my terms better. I mean holding the product and how it's built above MBA stuff, which is the part I admire about Musk companies. If they want to cut costs, they typically find a new technique or new process to build a part, instead of reaching for typical MBA levers like new suppliers or outsourcing. Your point about transforming intractability is cogent and I think we agree. To your last point about polymath tactics, you're right to a degree, but you can also watch Everyday Astronaut's SpaceX factory tour and realize that it's far more than a basic understanding, which is probably a big part of SpaceX's wild success.
BoxFour 3y ago
What criteria are we using to evaluate this? If the anecdotes are accurate, and based on your own description, it seems Elon Musk is a CEO who makes an effort to thoroughly grasp the products his company develops. That's commendable. This doesn't necessarily make him even a small-e engineer, even in the context of the broader definitions used today. It certainly doesn't make him "someone of engineering lineage," as the original comment implied was essential for Boeing's success, or even "someone with an engineering background" like the comment I replied to. It's also certainly not clear that Elon has an engineering-first mindset, nor that that would even be helpful for many of the businesses he runs. I can think of plenty of examples of Elon putting business above all else plenty of times, and I don't mean that as a dig: It's often the smart move for the monetary gain of all involved. And just to be clear, this not a commentary at all on about whether Elon would be effective in running Boeing. To be blunt: I don't care about that conversation.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  > If the anecdotes are accurate > It's also certainly not clear that Elon has an engineering-first mindset If A, then B. Struggle with definitions all we want, Boeing needs a dose of Musk's attitude towards engineering and manufacturing. It is the most important thing they do, and I don't think the C-suite understands that. That's the most distilled version of what I'm saying. Musk is the best recent example of this attitude, but Henry Ford is an excellent older example.
  - BoxFour 3y ago
    > If A, then B If Elon's thoroughly understands the products his companies develop, he has an engineering-first mindset? That logic would also apply to many CEOs we wouldn't consider "engineering-first" CEOs. > Struggle with definitions all we want, For me, this is the only discussion. My focus is not at all on whether Elon would be a good fit for Boeing. I don't give a shit about that conversation.
    - rpmisms 3y ago
      I don't want Elon to run Boeing, that's never been part of my argument. I want leadership at Boeing that elevates engineers, understands that engineering is absolutely critical, and punishes bean-counters for pushing against a good engineering culture.
KerrAvon 3y ago
He does not understand them. You’ve fallen for his PR, I’m afraid.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  Can you provide some substantive evidence on that? Just curious if you actually have a good example, or if you bought into the other PR.

throwaway2037 3y ago

> PE type of engineering What is PE?