6 ms·

Ok, so you know society breaks down at the limit of what you are saying, right? Also the example is ludicrous, you're saying the cops would try to blame someon

by oglop 3y ago

Ok, so you know society breaks down at the limit of what you are saying, right? Also the example is ludicrous, you're saying the cops would try to blame someone for a hit and run that isn't even in a car. No, the cops are not that cartoonishly bad. Some cops in some departments may be, and I can almost guess the cities, but the average cop is not a monster, they're just some person like you or me.

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
they won't blame you for the hit and run, but what if a store near there gets robbed an hour after you talk to them, and they decide you're a suspect because you look somewhat like the description and they know you were in the area?
- dekhn 3y ago
  I think you're stretching to make your point here. You can construct many "what ifs", but they mainly apply if the police are actively subverting the normal rules of law or incompetent. There are a subset of cops who are corrupt, or racist, or classist, where merely interacting with the police can lead to serious outcomes, but that's sort of a different problem that has to be addressed more systematically.
  - mschuster91 3y ago
    > You can construct many "what ifs", but they mainly apply if the police are actively subverting the normal rules of law or incompetent. Cops in the US barely receive training - the average length is 22 weeks, while Germany clocks in at 2.5 years [1]. Of course a lot of police will be incompetent in the first place given the length and priorities of these trainings, made worse by cargo-culting from "senior" officers and by "killology" training [2]. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-training-us-falls-short-compared-rest-world/story?id=96729748 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-training-us-falls-short-com... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/11/police-training-warrior-mindset-killology/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/11/police-trai...
  - adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
    > There are a subset of cops who are corrupt, or racist, or classist, where merely interacting with the police can lead to serious outcomes, but that's sort of a different problem that has to be addressed more systematically. The fundamental problem is that you don't know whether the police officer you are talking to is good or not, and if you find out, it is too late. Talking to a police officer is like petting someone else's dog. Don't do so unless you've talked to someone who feeds it first.
autoexec 3y ago
> the average cop is not a monster, they're just some person like you or me. The average person like you or me who becomes a cop gets chased out of the profession because they wouldn't turn a blind eye to the crimes their fellow officers commit against the public. Everyone left is most likely either just as guilty or complicit and enabling.
- int_19h 3y ago
  "Chased out" is the mildest version, even. There was a case of police whistleblower who ended up with no backup each time they were responding to a dangerous call, for example. Or that guy in NYC who was forcibly institutionalized by his fellow cops: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft
immibis 3y ago
Yes - society breaks down when cops act dishonestly and people stop trusting them. That is a good reason to fire the dishonest cops and hire honest ones, but in the current climate, that can't happen.
- threatofrain 3y ago
  There needs to be prosecution and not just firing. When an engineer lies in a legal setting and consequently gets someone put into jail for years, should they merely be fired?
throwway120385 3y ago
I would say you should pay attention to who you're talking to. Some cops are that cartoonishly bad. My wife worked retail at TMobile and had cops come into the store at times trying to get information about customers. Most of them would accept the corporate policy and go talk to legal about the information they needed. One police officer started having a meltdown, sweating profusely, got visibly angry, and made her present her ID whereupon he wrote down her driver's license number, address, full legal name, etc.. She spent the next month or so dreading what he was going to do in retaliation. All because she redirected him to their legal department for information about a customer.
- Vinnl 3y ago
  What are you supposed to do though? Surely stating that you don't want to talk to him or want a lawyer isn't likely to be deescalating?
- engineer_22 3y ago
  So... what happened?
thomastjeffery 3y ago
I think that's the observation you are both making. Society has broken down right at that limit.
int_19h 3y ago
It sure does. So we better make it so that cops behave in ways that actually make people trust them, and fast. Anecdotally, I feel that most people my age or younger already treat the law in general, and law enforcement in particular, as some kind of mostly destructive force of nature that you do your best to stay out of the way of. It doesn't help that whenever police organize in any capacity, denying and covering up abuses always seems one of the goal. Just look at what FOP says every time there's a police shooting.

by oglop 3y ago

adgjlsfhk1 3y ago

they won't blame you for the hit and run, but what if a store near there gets robbed an hour after you talk to them, and they decide you're a suspect because you look somewhat like the description and they know you were in the area?

dekhn 3y ago
I think you're stretching to make your point here. You can construct many "what ifs", but they mainly apply if the police are actively subverting the normal rules of law or incompetent. There are a subset of cops who are corrupt, or racist, or classist, where merely interacting with the police can lead to serious outcomes, but that's sort of a different problem that has to be addressed more systematically.
- mschuster91 3y ago
  > You can construct many "what ifs", but they mainly apply if the police are actively subverting the normal rules of law or incompetent. Cops in the US barely receive training - the average length is 22 weeks, while Germany clocks in at 2.5 years [1]. Of course a lot of police will be incompetent in the first place given the length and priorities of these trainings, made worse by cargo-culting from "senior" officers and by "killology" training [2]. [1] https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-training-us-falls-short-compared-rest-world/story?id=96729748 https://abcnews.go.com/US/police-training-us-falls-short-com... [2] https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/11/police-training-warrior-mindset-killology/ https://www.washingtonpost.com/nation/2021/08/11/police-trai...
- adgjlsfhk1 3y ago
  > There are a subset of cops who are corrupt, or racist, or classist, where merely interacting with the police can lead to serious outcomes, but that's sort of a different problem that has to be addressed more systematically. The fundamental problem is that you don't know whether the police officer you are talking to is good or not, and if you find out, it is too late. Talking to a police officer is like petting someone else's dog. Don't do so unless you've talked to someone who feeds it first.

autoexec 3y ago

> the average cop is not a monster, they're just some person like you or me. The average person like you or me who becomes a cop gets chased out of the profession because they wouldn't turn a blind eye to the crimes their fellow officers commit against the public. Everyone left is most likely either just as guilty or complicit and enabling.

int_19h 3y ago
"Chased out" is the mildest version, even. There was a case of police whistleblower who ended up with no backup each time they were responding to a dangerous call, for example. Or that guy in NYC who was forcibly institutionalized by his fellow cops: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adrian_Schoolcraft

immibis 3y ago

Yes - society breaks down when cops act dishonestly and people stop trusting them. That is a good reason to fire the dishonest cops and hire honest ones, but in the current climate, that can't happen.

threatofrain 3y ago
There needs to be prosecution and not just firing. When an engineer lies in a legal setting and consequently gets someone put into jail for years, should they merely be fired?

throwway120385 3y ago

I would say you should pay attention to who you're talking to. Some cops are that cartoonishly bad. My wife worked retail at TMobile and had cops come into the store at times trying to get information about customers. Most of them would accept the corporate policy and go talk to legal about the information they needed. One police officer started having a meltdown, sweating profusely, got visibly angry, and made her present her ID whereupon he wrote down her driver's license number, address, full legal name, etc.. She spent the next month or so dreading what he was going to do in retaliation. All because she redirected him to their legal department for information about a customer.

Vinnl 3y ago
What are you supposed to do though? Surely stating that you don't want to talk to him or want a lawyer isn't likely to be deescalating?
engineer_22 3y ago
So... what happened?

thomastjeffery 3y ago

I think that's the observation you are both making. Society has broken down right at that limit.

int_19h 3y ago

It sure does. So we better make it so that cops behave in ways that actually make people trust them, and fast. Anecdotally, I feel that most people my age or younger already treat the law in general, and law enforcement in particular, as some kind of mostly destructive force of nature that you do your best to stay out of the way of. It doesn't help that whenever police organize in any capacity, denying and covering up abuses always seems one of the goal. Just look at what FOP says every time there's a police shooting.