4 ms·

This article leaves a lot of details out. As a Parisian who's been following this with attention, here are a few details: * first, the "SUV" part is the intent

by Fradow 3y ago

This article leaves a lot of details out. As a Parisian who's been following this with attention, here are a few details: * first, the "SUV" part is the intent, but not the reality. It's actually by weight: over 1600kg for ICE and 2000kg for electric/hybrids. A lot of French SUVs fit under those restrictions (for example Peugeot 2008/3008). It's unclear to me if there is really something specific to target those SUVs as well (I have not read the full text) * part of the issue is width rather than weight: cars become larger and no longer fit in the parking spots. Parking spots minimum width in Paris is 180cm. For example, a Porsche Cayenne (a typical SUV) is 198cm without mirrors, 219cm with mirrors deployed. Being at least 20cm outside of the parking spot is an issue, roads are narrow. * this is only for paid surface parking for non-residents. Residents price is not impacted (which is controversial). Underground parking is private and not affected. Free parking (outside of 8AM to 8PM Monday to Saturday) stays free for everyone. * In general, underground parking is cheaper than surface parking even at the normal price. This will likely push those cars underground, which is IMO a good thing (especially because of the width issue). * this vote is controversial in the first place (much like the rental scooters one was recently): the result was expected: it doesn't really affect negatively Parisians, only outsiders, and is strictly a QoL improvements for Parisians. I'm actually surprised it's not a landslide, but I guess the people who went to vote are generally more likely to have a car and vote against because of that. * there were other questions asked for specific arrondissement. Those were important as well. Edit: of those questions, only one arrondissement rejected its question (8th, which is also one of the least favorable over the poll). Those questions were mainly around reclaiming space from cars to allocate to pedestrians/cyclists/green spaces.

erostrate 3y ago
> this is only for paid surface parking for non-residents. Residents price is not impacted (which is controversial). Underground parking is private and not affected. Free parking (outside of 8AM to 8PM Monday to Saturday) stays free for everyone. If my end goal was to apply this to everyone at some point, I would probably start with such a restricted law, then extend it step by step later.
- orwin 3y ago
  Nah, it might be extended to residents, but the private parking and the free parking hours won't be changed ever. (unless a national law is passed).
- Fradow 3y ago
  The news makes people focus on this particular vote, but it's just yet another small step in the multitude of other steps to curb car use in Paris. It started at least 10 years ago (current mayor that really pushes the issue was elected in 2014, I'm not sure it's the actual starting point), and we saw: * bike lanes. Lots of bike lanes. Generally replacing traffic lanes and parking spots. * several pedestrians zones replacing traffic lanes (especially in front of schools). * Crit'air restrictions (car pollution rating, derived from Euro rating). You cannot drive a polluting car in Paris anymore. * reduction of the speed limit from 50km/h to 30km/h in Paris, and from 80km/h to 70km/h on the Périphérique (highway circling Paris) * there is no longer any always-free surface parking spot, and price has been raised a lot And I'm very probably forgetting a few.
strawberryfie 3y ago
It’s interesting that new legislation is baking in the idea that more “sustainable” cars can weigh a lot more. Disappointing that this means we won’t tackle the other externalities of personal motorised transport including size, safety and visibility issues, wear on public infrastructure, and sheer amount of extra material people use to get themselves around.
- _heimdall 3y ago
  I think the idea is that batteries can make the car more dense. Their concern was larger vehicles not fitting in parking spaces, allowing more weight in an EV makes sense in that case. It is interesting that they went with weight as a proxy for size though. I expect the process for charging by weight or dimensions would come down to a list of oversized vehicle models, why abstract it a layer rather than a max width/length?
  - Arnt 3y ago
    That might just be tradition. Driving license classes also use weight as a proxy.
  - strawberryfie 3y ago
    And bigger. For any particular fuel range of interest, an ICE drivetrain is smaller than a battery one. But yes, I agree that weight as a proxy for size is ridiculous.
- KptMarchewa 3y ago
  They are more "dense" rather than necessarily larger.
  - strawberryfie 3y ago
    For comparable driving ranges, EVs are necessarily larger than ICE cars.
rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago
>the result was expected With 54,55 % in favor and only 5,68 % voting, I wouldn't call that "expected". >is strictly a QoL improvements for Parisians No, anyone visiting Paris in anything other than an SUV (say, a train, a bus, a bicycle) will benefit.
- Fradow 3y ago
  To be fair, the sentiment was "it will be a landslide in favour" (like the electric scooters). It indeed wasn't, but still went in the expected way. People visiting Paris were not polled, only Parisians were, that's why I only explained this point of view. But yes it does benefit everyone that doesn't visit Paris in a SUV. Note that it also impacts Parisians with a SUV when they are parking outside of their resident zones (a resident parking permit allows you to park in 4 zones around your home).
  - rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago
    >the sentiment was "it will be a landslide in favour" Source? I voted and like many people in circles and voting center, I didn't share that sentiment.
    - Fradow 3y ago
      Here is a news article talking about that (in French) from before the vote was done: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/france/ile-de-france/venir-a-paris-en-suv-4x4-ou-berline-on-vous-explique-les-enjeux-du-vote-sur-l-augmentation-du-prix-du-stationnement_6340843.html https://www.francetvinfo.fr/france/ile-de-france/venir-a-par... Key part translation: "According to a poll, 61% of Parisians support the implementation of parking pricing based on the weight of the vehicle". This tweet is quoted in the news: https://twitter.com/franckboisselet/status/1752675892692701650 https://twitter.com/franckboisselet/status/17526758926927016... Translation: "What's the point of organizing an expensive vote on SUVs where everyone agrees." Seeing as some arrondissements were very much against that change, it's not hard to find anecdotas of places where the sentiment is against it.
  - snapplebobapple 3y ago
WirelessGigabit 3y ago
The weight limit is quite weird. My 2019 BMW 2 series (so not big at all!) weighs 1690kg and length of 443.7cm has a width of 177.4cm without mirrors.
- sharken 3y ago
  Indeed, the Tesla model Y is also below 2000kg. I also think the weight for EV cars should be lowered, considering the better acceleration that EVs have. Perhaps that will come later.
thesmok 3y ago
In my country the car registration document has the weight number but not the width number. I suspect in France it's the same, and that's the reason they went by weight instead of width – it's easier to administer that way.

by Fradow 3y ago

erostrate 3y ago

> this is only for paid surface parking for non-residents. Residents price is not impacted (which is controversial). Underground parking is private and not affected. Free parking (outside of 8AM to 8PM Monday to Saturday) stays free for everyone. If my end goal was to apply this to everyone at some point, I would probably start with such a restricted law, then extend it step by step later.

orwin 3y ago
Nah, it might be extended to residents, but the private parking and the free parking hours won't be changed ever. (unless a national law is passed).
Fradow 3y ago
The news makes people focus on this particular vote, but it's just yet another small step in the multitude of other steps to curb car use in Paris. It started at least 10 years ago (current mayor that really pushes the issue was elected in 2014, I'm not sure it's the actual starting point), and we saw: * bike lanes. Lots of bike lanes. Generally replacing traffic lanes and parking spots. * several pedestrians zones replacing traffic lanes (especially in front of schools). * Crit'air restrictions (car pollution rating, derived from Euro rating). You cannot drive a polluting car in Paris anymore. * reduction of the speed limit from 50km/h to 30km/h in Paris, and from 80km/h to 70km/h on the Périphérique (highway circling Paris) * there is no longer any always-free surface parking spot, and price has been raised a lot And I'm very probably forgetting a few.

strawberryfie 3y ago

It’s interesting that new legislation is baking in the idea that more “sustainable” cars can weigh a lot more. Disappointing that this means we won’t tackle the other externalities of personal motorised transport including size, safety and visibility issues, wear on public infrastructure, and sheer amount of extra material people use to get themselves around.

_heimdall 3y ago
I think the idea is that batteries can make the car more dense. Their concern was larger vehicles not fitting in parking spaces, allowing more weight in an EV makes sense in that case. It is interesting that they went with weight as a proxy for size though. I expect the process for charging by weight or dimensions would come down to a list of oversized vehicle models, why abstract it a layer rather than a max width/length?
- Arnt 3y ago
  That might just be tradition. Driving license classes also use weight as a proxy.
- strawberryfie 3y ago
  And bigger. For any particular fuel range of interest, an ICE drivetrain is smaller than a battery one. But yes, I agree that weight as a proxy for size is ridiculous.
KptMarchewa 3y ago
They are more "dense" rather than necessarily larger.
- strawberryfie 3y ago
  For comparable driving ranges, EVs are necessarily larger than ICE cars.

rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago

>the result was expected With 54,55 % in favor and only 5,68 % voting, I wouldn't call that "expected". >is strictly a QoL improvements for Parisians No, anyone visiting Paris in anything other than an SUV (say, a train, a bus, a bicycle) will benefit.

Fradow 3y ago
To be fair, the sentiment was "it will be a landslide in favour" (like the electric scooters). It indeed wasn't, but still went in the expected way. People visiting Paris were not polled, only Parisians were, that's why I only explained this point of view. But yes it does benefit everyone that doesn't visit Paris in a SUV. Note that it also impacts Parisians with a SUV when they are parking outside of their resident zones (a resident parking permit allows you to park in 4 zones around your home).
- rcMgD2BwE72F 3y ago
  >the sentiment was "it will be a landslide in favour" Source? I voted and like many people in circles and voting center, I didn't share that sentiment.
  - Fradow 3y ago
    Here is a news article talking about that (in French) from before the vote was done: https://www.francetvinfo.fr/france/ile-de-france/venir-a-paris-en-suv-4x4-ou-berline-on-vous-explique-les-enjeux-du-vote-sur-l-augmentation-du-prix-du-stationnement_6340843.html https://www.francetvinfo.fr/france/ile-de-france/venir-a-par... Key part translation: "According to a poll, 61% of Parisians support the implementation of parking pricing based on the weight of the vehicle". This tweet is quoted in the news: https://twitter.com/franckboisselet/status/1752675892692701650 https://twitter.com/franckboisselet/status/17526758926927016... Translation: "What's the point of organizing an expensive vote on SUVs where everyone agrees." Seeing as some arrondissements were very much against that change, it's not hard to find anecdotas of places where the sentiment is against it.
- snapplebobapple 3y ago

WirelessGigabit 3y ago

The weight limit is quite weird. My 2019 BMW 2 series (so not big at all!) weighs 1690kg and length of 443.7cm has a width of 177.4cm without mirrors.

sharken 3y ago
Indeed, the Tesla model Y is also below 2000kg. I also think the weight for EV cars should be lowered, considering the better acceleration that EVs have. Perhaps that will come later.

thesmok 3y ago

In my country the car registration document has the weight number but not the width number. I suspect in France it's the same, and that's the reason they went by weight instead of width – it's easier to administer that way.