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That's where I disagree. I think individual rights must trump collective rights. Unfortunately (for me) the elites are with you (at least by now).

by vdaea 3y ago

malermeister 3y ago
I think that is just straight up selfish thinking and if further left unchecked, the reason we are all doomed in the long-term. Individuals cannot handle systemic problems, almost by definition. We either ignore them at our peril or we recognise that there's a reason humanity decided to organize as civilizations as opposed to hermits in mountain caves.
nhinck3 3y ago
Don't you think it's weird to be calling a democratically elected parliament 'elite' over a multi-billion company attempting to throw its weight around?
- vdaea 3y ago
  Calling the EU parliament democratically elected is really a stretch. On the other hand I make the direct choice of buying (or not) certain products. A choice that should be nobody's business but mine. It's not like I'm dumping nuclear waste in the river. It's a stupid phone.
  - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
    Huh? The EU parliament is indeed directly elected, the elections will be held in June. Do you mean the Commission or something?
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      The EU parliament does not create new laws it just rubber stamps them. Basically it’s less or about as relevant as the parliaments of pseudo-democratic European empires of from ~1900 like Tsarist Russia, Germany etc.
      - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
        No laws are passed without the agreement of Parliament. Granted, I think that they should also propose all laws but to claim that it's a rubber stamp is demonstratively untrue.
      - piva00 3y ago
        That is demonstrably false [1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-parliament-set-sue-european-commission-over-rule-of-law-inaction-2021-06-09/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-parliament-set-sue-e...
        ffgjgf1 3y ago
        A real parliament would have dissolved and appointed a new one. This kind of only proves my point, they basically have the same recourse that every ordinary citizen or organization does. Again the EU parliament has about as much power as the German Imperial Bundesrat did back in the 1900s. Which is of course better than nothing but far from a real democracy
- ffgjgf1 3y ago
  The parliament can’t create or propose new laws or directives, only the undemocratically appointed commission. The EU parliament is mainly a joke which costs a lot of money
  - piva00 3y ago
    The EU Parliament can block laws, their role is to review the Commission's proposals and judge if they should pass or not. It can also ask the Commission to propose laws, they also hold the power over approval of the Commission body and the power to ask for the Commission resignation. It's not a joke, although it has many flaws...
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      > It can also ask the Commission to propose laws, they also hold the power over approval of the Commission body and the power to ask for the Commission resignation So very limited actual power compared to any real parliament. Maybe it’s not a joke but it’s about on the same level as the partially democratic European Monarchies from the 1800s as far as being democratic (I assume that’s enough for some people).
      - malermeister 3y ago
        The other thing is, the Parliament is not the only democratic institution, even if it is the only directly elected one. The Council consists of democratically elected heads of democratic governments, similar to the way each state in the US elects its senators. The Commission consists of Commissioners that are appointed by democratically elected governments. It's one step removed, just like the US presidency is through the electoral college. Every single institution is democratically legitimized one way or another.
tivert 3y ago
> That's where I disagree. I think individual rights must trump collective rights. That's an utterly insane principle to follow, though one that's often made seductively appealing by propaganda full of cherry-picking and oversimple toy models. The only sensible position is that individual and collective rights must be balanced. If you go too far towards exclusively favoring one or another, you get terrible outcomes for most people.

That's where I disagree. I think individual rights must trump collective rights. Unfortunately (for me) the elites are with you (at least by now).

by vdaea 3y ago

That's where I disagree. I think individual rights must trump collective rights. Unfortunately (for me) the elites are with you (at least by now).

malermeister 3y ago

I think that is just straight up selfish thinking and if further left unchecked, the reason we are all doomed in the long-term. Individuals cannot handle systemic problems, almost by definition. We either ignore them at our peril or we recognise that there's a reason humanity decided to organize as civilizations as opposed to hermits in mountain caves.

nhinck3 3y ago

Don't you think it's weird to be calling a democratically elected parliament 'elite' over a multi-billion company attempting to throw its weight around?

vdaea 3y ago
Calling the EU parliament democratically elected is really a stretch. On the other hand I make the direct choice of buying (or not) certain products. A choice that should be nobody's business but mine. It's not like I'm dumping nuclear waste in the river. It's a stupid phone.
- disgruntledphd2 3y ago
  Huh? The EU parliament is indeed directly elected, the elections will be held in June. Do you mean the Commission or something?
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    The EU parliament does not create new laws it just rubber stamps them. Basically it’s less or about as relevant as the parliaments of pseudo-democratic European empires of from ~1900 like Tsarist Russia, Germany etc.
    - disgruntledphd2 3y ago
      No laws are passed without the agreement of Parliament. Granted, I think that they should also propose all laws but to claim that it's a rubber stamp is demonstratively untrue.
    - piva00 3y ago
      That is demonstrably false [1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-parliament-set-sue-european-commission-over-rule-of-law-inaction-2021-06-09/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-parliament-set-sue-e...
      - ffgjgf1 3y ago
        A real parliament would have dissolved and appointed a new one. This kind of only proves my point, they basically have the same recourse that every ordinary citizen or organization does. Again the EU parliament has about as much power as the German Imperial Bundesrat did back in the 1900s. Which is of course better than nothing but far from a real democracy
ffgjgf1 3y ago
The parliament can’t create or propose new laws or directives, only the undemocratically appointed commission. The EU parliament is mainly a joke which costs a lot of money
- piva00 3y ago
  The EU Parliament can block laws, their role is to review the Commission's proposals and judge if they should pass or not. It can also ask the Commission to propose laws, they also hold the power over approval of the Commission body and the power to ask for the Commission resignation. It's not a joke, although it has many flaws...
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    > It can also ask the Commission to propose laws, they also hold the power over approval of the Commission body and the power to ask for the Commission resignation So very limited actual power compared to any real parliament. Maybe it’s not a joke but it’s about on the same level as the partially democratic European Monarchies from the 1800s as far as being democratic (I assume that’s enough for some people).
    - malermeister 3y ago
      The other thing is, the Parliament is not the only democratic institution, even if it is the only directly elected one. The Council consists of democratically elected heads of democratic governments, similar to the way each state in the US elects its senators. The Commission consists of Commissioners that are appointed by democratically elected governments. It's one step removed, just like the US presidency is through the electoral college. Every single institution is democratically legitimized one way or another.

tivert 3y ago

> That's where I disagree. I think individual rights must trump collective rights. That's an utterly insane principle to follow, though one that's often made seductively appealing by propaganda full of cherry-picking and oversimple toy models. The only sensible position is that individual and collective rights must be balanced. If you go too far towards exclusively favoring one or another, you get terrible outcomes for most people.