6 ms·

One of the best things about Europe is that courts rule on intent, not the fineprint/wording of a law like in the US, which often leads to insane loopholes bein

by Sakos 3y ago

One of the best things about Europe is that courts rule on intent, not the fineprint/wording of a law like in the US, which often leads to insane loopholes being exploited by corporations in the US. I hope Apple gets a big clapback for what they're trying to pull here.

aeurielesn 3y ago
I wouldn't even be surprised if they end up with a product ban in the EU.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  Apple will capitulate before a product ban, that’s if the EU is ballsy enough to even do it, which even with all that’s gone on is not a given.
- vdaea 3y ago
  Completely disregarding the rights of those of us who want to buy the products and don't give a fuck about this macho fight the EU is trying to pull.
  - malermeister 3y ago
    Your right to buy electronics doesn't trump my right to a market undistorted by monopolist power.
    - vdaea 3y ago
      That's where I disagree. I think individual rights must trump collective rights. Unfortunately (for me) the elites are with you (at least by now).
      - malermeister 3y ago
        I think that is just straight up selfish thinking and if further left unchecked, the reason we are all doomed in the long-term. Individuals cannot handle systemic problems, almost by definition. We either ignore them at our peril or we recognise that there's a reason humanity decided to organize as civilizations as opposed to hermits in mountain caves.
      - nhinck3 3y ago
        Don't you think it's weird to be calling a democratically elected parliament 'elite' over a multi-billion company attempting to throw its weight around?
        vdaea 3y ago
        Calling the EU parliament democratically elected is really a stretch. On the other hand I make the direct choice of buying (or not) certain products. A choice that should be nobody's business but mine. It's not like I'm dumping nuclear waste in the river. It's a stupid phone.
        disgruntledphd2 3y ago
        Huh? The EU parliament is indeed directly elected, the elections will be held in June. Do you mean the Commission or something?
        ffgjgf1 3y ago
        The EU parliament does not create new laws it just rubber stamps them. Basically it’s less or about as relevant as the parliaments of pseudo-democratic European empires of from ~1900 like Tsarist Russia, Germany etc.
        disgruntledphd2 3y ago
        No laws are passed without the agreement of Parliament. Granted, I think that they should also propose all laws but to claim that it's a rubber stamp is demonstratively untrue.
        piva00 3y ago
        That is demonstrably false [1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-parliament-set-sue-european-commission-over-rule-of-law-inaction-2021-06-09/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-parliament-set-sue-e...
      - tivert 3y ago
        > That's where I disagree. I think individual rights must trump collective rights. That's an utterly insane principle to follow, though one that's often made seductively appealing by propaganda full of cherry-picking and oversimple toy models. The only sensible position is that individual and collective rights must be balanced. If you go too far towards exclusively favoring one or another, you get terrible outcomes for most people.
  - fxtentacle 3y ago
    The EU is merely enforcing rules that the majority of citizens appear to agree upon. And if you care enough, you can always buy in another country and import those products yourself. Except, of course, if the manufacturer tries the monopolistic playbook and locks you out, to prevent you from circumventing their price differentiation. But I'm optimistic that Apple would never so blatantly put profits over its users' wishes ;)
  - HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
    Don't you have a right to vote for an elected representative? Is allowing foreign trillion dollar corporations to do whatever greedy acts they want popular amongst the people? I suspect it is not. None of your rights are being infringed.
    - ffgjgf1 3y ago
      > Don't you have a right to vote for an elected representative? Of course not. The EU parliament is just there to rubber-stamp the decisions coming from the undemocratically appointed commission. They can’t propose any laws or directives. No voters would elect such a person like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen to a top office. She’s thoroughly incompetent, corrupt, self-entitled as it gets and has zero charisma (literally zero redeeming qualities).
      - shortsunblack 3y ago
        The Parliamenet is not a rubber-stamping body. It can block legislation ad infinitum. That's the opposite of rubber-stamping. The democratic crisis of EU is well documented and there are valid critiques. Yours are not.
      - p_l 3y ago
        Voters elected those who chose her :V I remember at least one government that crowed a lot about will of the people first crowing how they voted for her then spending time demonizing her :V
malermeister 3y ago
I think that difference is exactly why US-based companies always confidently project a "don't worry, we found a series of loopholes around the law", thinking things worked the same way as at home, only to proceed to be shocked by the fact that things are a bit different over the pond.
jug 3y ago
Yeah in these discussions it also bears repeating that the DMA has explicit clauses about malicious intent. I don't think we've heard the end of this. Right now EU is probably busy noting backlash and seeing if there is merit to their arguments.

by Sakos 3y ago

aeurielesn 3y ago

I wouldn't even be surprised if they end up with a product ban in the EU.

cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
Apple will capitulate before a product ban, that’s if the EU is ballsy enough to even do it, which even with all that’s gone on is not a given.
vdaea 3y ago
Completely disregarding the rights of those of us who want to buy the products and don't give a fuck about this macho fight the EU is trying to pull.
- malermeister 3y ago
  Your right to buy electronics doesn't trump my right to a market undistorted by monopolist power.
  - vdaea 3y ago
    That's where I disagree. I think individual rights must trump collective rights. Unfortunately (for me) the elites are with you (at least by now).
    - malermeister 3y ago
      I think that is just straight up selfish thinking and if further left unchecked, the reason we are all doomed in the long-term. Individuals cannot handle systemic problems, almost by definition. We either ignore them at our peril or we recognise that there's a reason humanity decided to organize as civilizations as opposed to hermits in mountain caves.
    - nhinck3 3y ago
      Don't you think it's weird to be calling a democratically elected parliament 'elite' over a multi-billion company attempting to throw its weight around?
      - vdaea 3y ago
        Calling the EU parliament democratically elected is really a stretch. On the other hand I make the direct choice of buying (or not) certain products. A choice that should be nobody's business but mine. It's not like I'm dumping nuclear waste in the river. It's a stupid phone.
        disgruntledphd2 3y ago
        Huh? The EU parliament is indeed directly elected, the elections will be held in June. Do you mean the Commission or something?
        ffgjgf1 3y ago
        The EU parliament does not create new laws it just rubber stamps them. Basically it’s less or about as relevant as the parliaments of pseudo-democratic European empires of from ~1900 like Tsarist Russia, Germany etc.
        disgruntledphd2 3y ago
        No laws are passed without the agreement of Parliament. Granted, I think that they should also propose all laws but to claim that it's a rubber stamp is demonstratively untrue.
        piva00 3y ago
        That is demonstrably false [1]. [1] https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-parliament-set-sue-european-commission-over-rule-of-law-inaction-2021-06-09/ https://www.reuters.com/world/europe/eu-parliament-set-sue-e...
    - tivert 3y ago
      > That's where I disagree. I think individual rights must trump collective rights. That's an utterly insane principle to follow, though one that's often made seductively appealing by propaganda full of cherry-picking and oversimple toy models. The only sensible position is that individual and collective rights must be balanced. If you go too far towards exclusively favoring one or another, you get terrible outcomes for most people.
- fxtentacle 3y ago
  The EU is merely enforcing rules that the majority of citizens appear to agree upon. And if you care enough, you can always buy in another country and import those products yourself. Except, of course, if the manufacturer tries the monopolistic playbook and locks you out, to prevent you from circumventing their price differentiation. But I'm optimistic that Apple would never so blatantly put profits over its users' wishes ;)
- HeatrayEnjoyer 3y ago
  Don't you have a right to vote for an elected representative? Is allowing foreign trillion dollar corporations to do whatever greedy acts they want popular amongst the people? I suspect it is not. None of your rights are being infringed.
  - ffgjgf1 3y ago
    > Don't you have a right to vote for an elected representative? Of course not. The EU parliament is just there to rubber-stamp the decisions coming from the undemocratically appointed commission. They can’t propose any laws or directives. No voters would elect such a person like https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ursula_von_der_Leyen to a top office. She’s thoroughly incompetent, corrupt, self-entitled as it gets and has zero charisma (literally zero redeeming qualities).
    - shortsunblack 3y ago
      The Parliamenet is not a rubber-stamping body. It can block legislation ad infinitum. That's the opposite of rubber-stamping. The democratic crisis of EU is well documented and there are valid critiques. Yours are not.
    - p_l 3y ago
      Voters elected those who chose her :V I remember at least one government that crowed a lot about will of the people first crowing how they voted for her then spending time demonizing her :V

malermeister 3y ago

I think that difference is exactly why US-based companies always confidently project a "don't worry, we found a series of loopholes around the law", thinking things worked the same way as at home, only to proceed to be shocked by the fact that things are a bit different over the pond.

jug 3y ago

Yeah in these discussions it also bears repeating that the DMA has explicit clauses about malicious intent. I don't think we've heard the end of this. Right now EU is probably busy noting backlash and seeing if there is merit to their arguments.