6 ms·

The first version of USB should have used TRRS connectors. Then wouldn't have people complaining about inserting the cable incorrectly or having to deal with th

The first version of USB should have used TRRS connectors. Then wouldn't have people complaining about inserting the cable incorrectly or having to deal with the plethora of USB connectors.

crote 3y ago
The problem with TRRS is that the different pins get shorted together when plugging in or disconnecting it. This means devices now have to handle a dead short as part of regular operations, which seriously complicates the interface. The hobbyist ergonomic keyboard community has used TRRS for the link between the left and right half of the keyboard for a while now, and it routinely causes issue due to people accidentally unplugging it while powered - which fries their keyboard. I totally expect the 3.5mm Toslink plug to come back once we inevitable switch over to fiber, though!
- actionfromafar 3y ago
  Then we need light to transfer power too, sounds slightly unsafe for eyes, maybe.
  - crote 3y ago
    Not necessarily. You could design the plug like "copper tip, plastic ring, copper sleeve". With the right dimensions the contacts aren't shorted together during insertion. Alternatively, use a ring which is segmented in 120 degree pieces, and place two contacts 180 degree apart in the socket: any two ring segments might be shorted, but never all three - and there will always be at least two segments with a connection. Use a bridge rectifier to get a fixed polarity out of it.
- valianteffort 3y ago
  TOSLINK is seriously underrated
- lmpdev 3y ago
  Can anyone explain why Toslink is on almost every consumer AV product circuit board? I love Toslink but I wouldn’t expect it on as many TVs, devices and systems as I see them Is it just the lack of the need for DAC chips, cost, or something I’m missing? Many TVs and devices exclude many digital and analogue sockets, but for some reason I always see Toslink
  - InitialLastName 3y ago
    There are a few big reasons to prefer TOSLINK over other digital interfaces: Cost: TOSLINK can be implemented with two plastic connectors (one an LED, one a photodiode). After that, you're in a 3.3V domain. Other interfaces require transformers and other analog electronics to go from the signalling domain to one that is useful in a digital system. Noise/electrical performance: Using an optical interface means the systems are fully electrically isolated, with no risk of ground loops or noise coupling. There is also no risk of radiated emissions. Cabling convenience: TOSLINK supports a very long, thin, cable that can be checked for functionality at a glance (look at the receiver end: is there light?). Any comparable electrical interface is going to be at least 3 conductors and require a multimeter to check for breaks. Lastly, the reason to prefer digital is that every A/D-D/A step adds noise, distortion, and latency. The general desire is to convert to analog as late in the chain as possible to avoid that.
- 1-more 3y ago
  > The hobbyist ergonomic keyboard community has used TRRS for the link between the left and right half of the keyboard for a while now, and it routinely causes issue due to people accidentally unplugging it while powered - which fries their keyboard. I believe that someone has had this problem, but I cannot replicate it. I unplug the right hand of my Iris all the time like a jackass and so far no ill effects. IDGI.
  - crote 3y ago
    It depends a lot on the exact pinout used by the individual keyboard, and which side you disconnect first. I'm active in a community dedicated to keyboards like these, and I think we see someone with a dead keeb due to it once a week or so.
    - 1-more 3y ago
      Huh, how bout that. What models see it? I’d be interested to see what they’re doing vs what the Let’s Split and Iris do.
- em3rgent0rdr 3y ago
  "different pins get shorted together" But phone connectors have built-in switches, so I would think there must be some configuration to route the powered lines through the switches so that the power is only connected until the plug is fully inserted, I think. For instance, if insertion of the tip control a double-pole double-throw switch, then one of those could route the ground pin and one could route the power pin, such that those power lines are only routed once full insertion has been made.
kube-system 3y ago
Those problems weren’t really problems at the beginning, though. USB 1/1.1 only had A for host connectors, and B for peripheral connectors. And people didn’t spend much time hot swapping devices back in the those days either. Most peripherals sat on a desk and didn’t move much. The meme about always having to rotate USB came about more so in the days USB flash drives. And in the early days of USB flash drives the issue wasn’t plugging it in, it was that windows didn’t include mass storage device drivers! I think TRRS USB would have resulted in people confusing them with the much more common audio connectors and confusing host and peripheral. That could have killed USB from the start.
- jacquesm 3y ago
  That doesn't matter though. When you design a plug you take UK into account and USB-A is about as bad as it gets. I've never plugged in the connector to my headphones the wrong way around because there isn't a wrong way. And that's a design that goes back to ... 1877! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_connector_(audio)#Historical_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_connector_(audio)#Histor... There is absolutely no reason why you'd need to re-invent something as silly as this and do it wrong.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    USB wasn’t a reinvention of an audio connector. It was a replacement for a dozen if not more D Sub and DIN connectors that other serial connections used. Thus the ‘U’.
    - musicale 3y ago
      Nonetheless as TFA indicates, the iPod Shuffle 2G+ magically crammed USB into the TRRS audio connector in a way that was reliable enough to work in a mass-market product. As others have noted the design is potentially risky since power and ground are right next to each other, etc.
      - jacquesm 3y ago
justsomehnguy 3y ago
Except it wouldn't, because if the pin-out is different then you may re-insert it a thousand times - it wouldn't work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39257302 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39257302
butlike 3y ago
I'm not so sure that would have been the best solution for the Apollo mission, which is how the Universal Serial Bus came to be.
NikkiA 3y ago
power through a copper on copper connection will oxidize over time, which will then result in the the 'crackliness' you get in analog audio, crackliness applied to a high speed data signal = fatal flaw. It works as a hobbyist solution, but it's a long term disaster.

The first version of USB should have used TRRS connectors. Then wouldn't have people complaining about inserting the cable incorrectly or having to deal with the plethora of USB connectors.

crote 3y ago

The problem with TRRS is that the different pins get shorted together when plugging in or disconnecting it. This means devices now have to handle a dead short as part of regular operations, which seriously complicates the interface. The hobbyist ergonomic keyboard community has used TRRS for the link between the left and right half of the keyboard for a while now, and it routinely causes issue due to people accidentally unplugging it while powered - which fries their keyboard. I totally expect the 3.5mm Toslink plug to come back once we inevitable switch over to fiber, though!

actionfromafar 3y ago
Then we need light to transfer power too, sounds slightly unsafe for eyes, maybe.
- crote 3y ago
  Not necessarily. You could design the plug like "copper tip, plastic ring, copper sleeve". With the right dimensions the contacts aren't shorted together during insertion. Alternatively, use a ring which is segmented in 120 degree pieces, and place two contacts 180 degree apart in the socket: any two ring segments might be shorted, but never all three - and there will always be at least two segments with a connection. Use a bridge rectifier to get a fixed polarity out of it.
valianteffort 3y ago
TOSLINK is seriously underrated
lmpdev 3y ago
Can anyone explain why Toslink is on almost every consumer AV product circuit board? I love Toslink but I wouldn’t expect it on as many TVs, devices and systems as I see them Is it just the lack of the need for DAC chips, cost, or something I’m missing? Many TVs and devices exclude many digital and analogue sockets, but for some reason I always see Toslink
- InitialLastName 3y ago
  There are a few big reasons to prefer TOSLINK over other digital interfaces: Cost: TOSLINK can be implemented with two plastic connectors (one an LED, one a photodiode). After that, you're in a 3.3V domain. Other interfaces require transformers and other analog electronics to go from the signalling domain to one that is useful in a digital system. Noise/electrical performance: Using an optical interface means the systems are fully electrically isolated, with no risk of ground loops or noise coupling. There is also no risk of radiated emissions. Cabling convenience: TOSLINK supports a very long, thin, cable that can be checked for functionality at a glance (look at the receiver end: is there light?). Any comparable electrical interface is going to be at least 3 conductors and require a multimeter to check for breaks. Lastly, the reason to prefer digital is that every A/D-D/A step adds noise, distortion, and latency. The general desire is to convert to analog as late in the chain as possible to avoid that.
1-more 3y ago
> The hobbyist ergonomic keyboard community has used TRRS for the link between the left and right half of the keyboard for a while now, and it routinely causes issue due to people accidentally unplugging it while powered - which fries their keyboard. I believe that someone has had this problem, but I cannot replicate it. I unplug the right hand of my Iris all the time like a jackass and so far no ill effects. IDGI.
- crote 3y ago
  It depends a lot on the exact pinout used by the individual keyboard, and which side you disconnect first. I'm active in a community dedicated to keyboards like these, and I think we see someone with a dead keeb due to it once a week or so.
  - 1-more 3y ago
    Huh, how bout that. What models see it? I’d be interested to see what they’re doing vs what the Let’s Split and Iris do.
em3rgent0rdr 3y ago
"different pins get shorted together" But phone connectors have built-in switches, so I would think there must be some configuration to route the powered lines through the switches so that the power is only connected until the plug is fully inserted, I think. For instance, if insertion of the tip control a double-pole double-throw switch, then one of those could route the ground pin and one could route the power pin, such that those power lines are only routed once full insertion has been made.

kube-system 3y ago

Those problems weren’t really problems at the beginning, though. USB 1/1.1 only had A for host connectors, and B for peripheral connectors. And people didn’t spend much time hot swapping devices back in the those days either. Most peripherals sat on a desk and didn’t move much. The meme about always having to rotate USB came about more so in the days USB flash drives. And in the early days of USB flash drives the issue wasn’t plugging it in, it was that windows didn’t include mass storage device drivers! I think TRRS USB would have resulted in people confusing them with the much more common audio connectors and confusing host and peripheral. That could have killed USB from the start.

jacquesm 3y ago
That doesn't matter though. When you design a plug you take UK into account and USB-A is about as bad as it gets. I've never plugged in the connector to my headphones the wrong way around because there isn't a wrong way. And that's a design that goes back to ... 1877! https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_connector_(audio)#Historical_development https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phone_connector_(audio)#Histor... There is absolutely no reason why you'd need to re-invent something as silly as this and do it wrong.
- kube-system 3y ago
  USB wasn’t a reinvention of an audio connector. It was a replacement for a dozen if not more D Sub and DIN connectors that other serial connections used. Thus the ‘U’.
  - musicale 3y ago
    Nonetheless as TFA indicates, the iPod Shuffle 2G+ magically crammed USB into the TRRS audio connector in a way that was reliable enough to work in a mass-market product. As others have noted the design is potentially risky since power and ground are right next to each other, etc.
    - jacquesm 3y ago

justsomehnguy 3y ago

Except it wouldn't, because if the pin-out is different then you may re-insert it a thousand times - it wouldn't work: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39257302 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39257302

butlike 3y ago

I'm not so sure that would have been the best solution for the Apollo mission, which is how the Universal Serial Bus came to be.

NikkiA 3y ago

power through a copper on copper connection will oxidize over time, which will then result in the the 'crackliness' you get in analog audio, crackliness applied to a high speed data signal = fatal flaw. It works as a hobbyist solution, but it's a long term disaster.