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I suspect Caesar's dropped DEF CON because the DEF CON attendees likely have a fairly low "avg revenue per attendee" yield because fewer of them gamble compared

I suspect Caesar's dropped DEF CON because the DEF CON attendees likely have a fairly low "avg revenue per attendee" yield because fewer of them gamble compared to the avg Vegas conference attendee. They also probably spend less on high-end restaurant dining and bar drinking inside the hotel. Since the pandemic Vegas has had a pretty strong resurgence in general and this may be a sign that Caesar's is doing well enough they've decided there are higher-revenue guests they can put in those rooms — even in the doldrums of August (a traditionally slow month for Vegas tourism). I happen to regularly attend an unrelated, non-tech conference that's always right around the same week as DEF CON. That conference also happens to attract attendees who don't gamble or spend much at the hotel other than room costs. The reason the conference organizer chooses August is they get better discounts on their costs from the hotel in exchange for filling up rooms that would otherwise be empty (except this hotel is lower-end and cheaper than Caesar's). This works out because unlike Caesar's this hotel is far off the strip and doesn't have nearly as much dining or gambling revenue potential anyway.

nimos 3y ago
I doubt they would cancel a contract already in place for that reason. Not renew the contract - sure. But canceling an already scheduled event because of low revenue per guest doesn't seem very likely to me? Or maybe it was some sort of ongoing agreement and canceling it was effectively "not renewing".
- johnnyanmac 3y ago
  >But canceling an already scheduled event because of low revenue per guest doesn't seem very likely to me? Not to be TOO snarky, but given how quickly corporate cancels employee labor despite rising revenue, it would not surprise me for other corporate to also cancel "low paying customers" for "high paying customers". Loyalty is beyond dead so cancelling a contract is just a cost of business if they feel the alternative gives more money.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    > it would not surprise me for other corporate to also cancel "low paying customers" for "high paying customers" At least going by all the entrepreneurship articles I've read over the decade, "firing your customers" is a term of art, and a recommended approach for dealing with unprofitable and/or annoying customers - so I guess this shouldn't be surprising. > Loyalty is beyond dead so cancelling a contract is just a cost of business if they feel the alternative gives more money. Not to be TOO snarky, but that's kind of the point of contracts - contract cancellation terms aren't an "or else..." threat, but rather an agreed upon exit strategy. Termination fines aren't punishment, they're compensation for inconvenience.
    - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
      > Not to be TOO snarky Repeating this verbatim in your reply means you are trying to be pretty snarky, fyi.
      - boringg 3y ago
        I mean they were both being intentionally snarky. The second snarky comment was used in a mocking tone because the first comment didnt seem to have much empirical evidence to support it
        johnnyanmac 3y ago
        I don't, and that's why I preferenced it as such. Sort of like how you'll self-preface yourself with something like "nit:" before making a nitpick that's meant to be treated as a small note but nothing to consider or delve too strongly over. The idea is to diffuse siutations like this before it comes about, but I guess nothing is perfect.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
  - Anechoic 3y ago
    Not to be TOO snarky, but given how quickly corporate cancels employee labor despite rising revenue, it would not surprise me for other corporate to also cancel "low paying customers" for "high paying customers". Loyalty is beyond dead so cancelling a contract is just a cost of business if they feel the alternative gives more money. If they canceled a year or so before the con, I could see that. But to cancel seven month before the conference? There's no way they will get a decent-sized substitute in the space before then, so I don't see how this would be anything but a money-loser. Not to mention other conferences might be less willing to commit to long-term deals if they see that the contract can be canceled on a whim.
- flomo 3y ago
  Everyone is missing "but now held at the Las Vegas Convention Center (LVCC) with workshops and training at the Sahara" part. So this more like they got passed to a different venue. Not "vegas hates them".
  - vertis 3y ago
    The post says they had to do significant work to secure another venue. While it's possible the author could be lying there is no evidence of this so we must, at this point, take them at their word.
    - dsr_ 3y ago
      Arranging a convention site contract is always a lot of work, even if (hypothetically) the Caesar's rep suggested that they try LVCC.
      - vertis 3y ago
        The convention has been in Las Vegas for decades so I suspect they know ALL the options anyway.
- technick 3y ago
  I will need to dig up the archives from DC 27 when the deal with Caesars forum was officially announced, but if memory serves me correctly DT said it was a 5 or 10 year contract. So unless there was some verbaige in the contract that allows Caesars to cancel for any reason, they're going to be cutting DEFCON a check.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    A 5-year contract starting at DC 27 would hold thru DC 31, so DC 32 fits the "not renewing" hypothesis.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      Who knows? But a more likely hypothesis is that the organizers were betting that they could come to terms on a renewal and at the end of the day they couldn't.
  - nebula8804 3y ago
    There was some announcement at the closing talks last year of the same venue being booked for the next 2-3 cons I think.
- surge 3y ago
  I see people go all out in LV and drop a lot of money at restaurants. I guess it depends. Then again if you've already been in LV for a few days due to BH you might be over the bell curve on spending for the week. I guess it depends on when you get in. I tend to drop more money Wed-Thur.
- Sebb767 3y ago
  > Or maybe it was some sort of ongoing agreement and canceling it was effectively "not renewing". The announcement effectively calls it "no-notice cancellation" and overall it reads like they were already deep in the planning phase when it happened, which seems unlikely if a renewal was pending.
  - bawolff 3y ago
    Its odd though - i would assume a conference of this size would have penalties in the contract if the venue decides to pull out without cause or sufficient notice.
    - Arrath 3y ago
      To a point yeah but the venue also has the power not to sign the contract in the first place (ime the venue is the side typically negotiating from the position of power) if they think the penalties are too high on their end. In all likelihood they ran the math and figured it was worth it to yank the rug out from under Defcon, penalties be damned.
p-e-w 3y ago
The simplest explanation is often the correct one. Casinos aren't exactly known for having moral qualms. They are, however, known for caring about their bottom line. They probably analyze every single event they host and then shuffle things around to maximize their expected revenue based on their past experiences with the same type of event.
- metabagel 3y ago
  Put another way, they got a better offer
  - Eji1700 3y ago
    That’s the weird part. I doubt they’re using the space so this strikes me as “think of the money we’ll save on hours” bean counting
    - alephnerd 3y ago
      Companies/Vendors usually host corporate conferences around this time as well. A large company has probably decided to move a conference to Caesar's during that period, and that got Defcon bumped. Especially because DefCon has become massive, so the RoI has shrunk due to staffing overhead.
mirekrusin 3y ago
Or they figured they're somehow net negative when they do gamble :D
- c0pium 3y ago
  There are certainly a lot of DefCon attendees who think that this describes them. In my observation they are all very incorrect, usually humorously so fortunately.
  - smt88 3y ago
    My first thought was that GP was saying DefCon attendees would be counting cards, which is an effective and legal way to beat the house[1] (until you're caught and banned from the casino). 1. https://www.freep.com/story/entertainment/nightlife/2016/04/05/mark-pilarski-casinos-counting-cards/82538428/ https://www.freep.com/story/entertainment/nightlife/2016/04/...
    - daveguy 3y ago
      Casinos in Vegas use too many decks and reshuffle frequently enough that there is no edge gained over the house when card counting.
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - Kirby64 3y ago
        This is not true. Besides continuous shuffler machines, most casinos have 6 or 8 deck games that have plenty of 'penetration' (card counter term for depth into the deck that the cut card is placed) to offer an edge if you properly card count. There's also a big game to be played where rubes think they can card count and instead lose tons of money attempting to do so. The problem with card counting generally is that the casino has infinite money and never runs out, thereby they can sustain large expected value swings... whereas you need an enormous bankroll to handle those swings, assuming they don't throw you out before that happens.
NanoYohaneTSU 3y ago
Not everything is about money or the bottom line. Sometimes it's about politics. Vegas takes a loss on so many things. Nevada has grown more and more corporate over the years. This move doesn't surprise me at all.
- jfoutz 3y ago
  > Sometimes it's about politics. > Nevada has grown more and more corporate over the years. You make it sound like it's entirely about money and the bottom line. I have a hard time believing gaming doesn't provide _huge_ contributions to favorable politicians. I feel like you've got something to say, and maybe something really interesting. But what you've got if awfully vague. If you've got the time or inclination, I'd definitely read an elaboration of your meaning.
  - NanoYohaneTSU 3y ago
    Ideologically Clark County has changed from the influx of Silicon Valley influences starting in the 90s, which is why we have CES here. Financially the strips have massive amounts of money flowing into it from every angle. Construction is booming and housing cannot keep up with the demand. If you view LV from the surface then it seems like the economy is trashed - lower travel rates, millennials are not into gaming as much, and the virtualization of gaming is competing. But the reality is business for "living" is doing better than ever before. Because recent politics has changed ideologies with modern corporations several things have changed. For example skids were never part of LV ever, but that has changed in the last 10 years directly because of these ideologies. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-first-public-needle-vending-machine-for-drug-users-debuts-in-vegas/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-first-public-needle-vending... Do you think these same Corporations look fondly upon DEFCON? They would push it out eventually as it's not safe-hacking.
- MattGaiser 3y ago
  Is DEF CON a highly political thing?
- jrockway 3y ago
  What are the politics? One of the richest and most profitable industries on Earth wants to have a conference where they show slide shows to each other. Really not much different than any other conference, and probably more ethical than most of them.
nodesocket 3y ago
Doubtful, I'm sure it's related to the constant attacks against their infrastructure they must defend against (let's be honest, I'm sure Caesars is not defending successfully). The juice just ain't worth the squeeze. They have a business to run, and the risk of having a bunch of drunken and high hackers who happen to be the best in the world running amuck is not their idea of a good corporate event.
- lolinder 3y ago
  Caesar's apparently explicitly said it wasn't related to anything the community did. It's possible that they're lying for some reason, but it's also possible that they're telling the truth. > We don’t know why Caesars canceled us, they won’t say beyond it being a strategy change and it is not related to anything that DEF CON or our community has done. https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1aj6ixn/def_con_was_canceled_but_we_uncanceled_it/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1aj6ixn/def_con_was...
  - andy800 3y ago
    > for some reason To avoid any legal liability. Stating a specific reason would open them to possible "breach of contract" depending on whether the act(s) were significant enough or justifiable, based on the contract terms. Just say nothing, part amicably, everyone moves on without drama. With that said, they probably weren't lying. Most likely, months after ponying up $10 million to a sophisticated international hacking group, Caesars Entertainment probably doesn't want to invite some of the world's best hackers to stay and meet at its flagship resort.
    - lolinder 3y ago
      > To avoid any legal liability. Stating a specific reason would open them to possible "breach of contract" depending on whether the act(s) were significant enough or justifiable, based on the contract terms. This is how it works for at-will employment, but it would be a very weird contract that allows backing out only if you don't say why you're backing out.
fortran77 3y ago
> They also probably spend less on high-end restaurant dining and bar drinking inside the hotel. I'm not so sure. There's a _lot_ of drinking at DEF CON
- rdl 3y ago
  It's mostly with liquor bought from offsite and drunk in rooms/private parties, not via Caesar's venues or catering (there's a lot of that too, and this is summer dead period, so it still may be good).
  - kortilla 3y ago
    I explicitly remember them tapping out every keg at a bar there by 2pm about 10 years ago.
  - kstrauser 3y ago
    I can think of plenty of in-hotel bars packed with DEF CON attendees 24 hours a day during the conference.
    - hyperhopper 3y ago
      The linq bar turned into a 24hr party after the bomb threat last year
      - andy800 3y ago
        A bomb threat last year? Hmmm, I wonder why Caesars chose not to renew the contract.
        jeltz 3y ago
        Yeah, I think those things are more likely to be the issue. Tech people tend not to be shy with racking up huge bar tabs.
        jstarfish 3y ago
Orlan 3y ago
So… see you at Magic Live?
cratermoon 3y ago
I heard a joke a tech conference people in Vegas many years ago. It goes something like "people who go to tech conferences in Vegas bring one shirt and a $20 bill and never change either." So yea, programmers generally aren't gamblers because they know enough math to know the house always wins.
- rpmisms 3y ago
  In my experience, programmers like poker, but not games of chance. This also describes me. Poker is a data-heavy game of skill and memory, Craps is about the opposite.
  - basil-rash 3y ago
    Craps is not the opposite. Quite the opposite, actually. The magnitude of entropy casinos require you inject into the system each round is quite low in practice. Profiting off of that is all skill.
  - mynameisnoone 3y ago
    I went with a bunch of CS/bioinformatics/MD IITians to Reno, NV once. They were just there to gamble on games of chance. Personally, I think gambling is boring and stupid if the expectation isn't significantly positive. I'd gamble if skill was the dominating factor and the expectation wasn't so abysmal.
    - guappa 3y ago
      If it was skill based, you'd be competing against a pro who does nothing else. At least with chance you have a chance :)
    - basil-rash 3y ago
      If skill is the dominating factor, almost by definition it isn’t gambling. This is what allows bars and other institutions not licensed as gambling centers to host poker games. (which might be of interest to you)
    - 3y ago
kortilla 3y ago
Gambling isn’t the big margin for the casino and hackers aren’t immune to gambling. Most people who gamble know the odds aren’t in their favor.
- quickthrower2 3y ago
  What is the big margin? Rooms?
- xmprt 3y ago
  What's the big margin for the casino if not gambling?
- pxeboot 3y ago
  You can view their financial statements [1]. I am sure the 'casino' category includes things besides gambling, but it looks like the largest share of their revenue. [1] https://investor.caesars.com/news-releases/news-release-details/caesars-entertainment-inc-reports-fourth-quarter-and-full-year-0 https://investor.caesars.com/news-releases/news-release-deta...
  - somenameforme 3y ago
    Be sure to subtract expenses. So for 2022 you have 2500 for casino, 500 for food, 1500 for hotel, 800 for "other." And there's definitely some counterintuitive accounting going on there, because that 2500 would imply a profit margin of 41% on casino, but Vegas regulations require gaming machines to pay out at least 75%, leaving a profit margin max of 25%. The card games and other games of skill wouldn't have such restrictions, but it seems pretty difficult to imagine that they'd be high enough margin to result an overall of 41%.
    - zmgsabst 3y ago
      You seem to misunderstand the 75% rate: The requirement is that the expected value for a play on a machine is >75%. And most are >90%. But that’s not a cap on profit margin, as 25% of the expense for a play may be more than the cost of that play. Eg, having a machine that costs $1 with $0.75 expected return (and $0.25 revenue for the casino) may only cost the casino $0.10 a play — which would be a 60% profit margin.
weinzierl 3y ago
"I suspect Caesar's dropped DEF CON because the DEF CON attendees likely have a fairly low "avg revenue per attendee" yield because fewer of them gamble compared to the avg Vegas conference attendee." There is the story that the American Physical Society was not allowed back after in 1986 Vegas supposedly suffered its worst week in history. First of all there is no real evidence that this story is true and secondly it doesn't make sense to me that they would cancel DEF CON after so many years for that reason. They would have done so much earlier, probably. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/39668/did-a-casino-in-las-vegas-suffer-its-worst-week-in-history-after-hosting-a-physi https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/39668/did-a-cas...
- elashri 3y ago
  I heard this story many times. One of them was froma graduate student who attended this meeting. APS March meeting happened in Las Vegas again last year (2023). While there was no official ban for APS Conferences, there was a little interest in las vegas to host anything for APS for a ~35 years.
busterarm 3y ago
All of the more recent years that I did DEF CON I was with large groups of people going to high end restaurants and (ab)using the hotel bars. In fact the hotel bars were always packed. My suspicion is that Caesars is trying to do something like play with headcount. Late summer is not just a weak time for conferences but DEF CON needs a ton more space and a ton more human babysitting across that space than any other conference. You don't see EVO or BlackHat getting cancelled (same exactly time window) because they're pretty contained in one place. My guess is that Caesars needs to staff up a little for DEF CON or that they may even be considering reducing staffing in late summer. Con attendees are going to stay at their properties and use their bars/restaurants/tables anyway. ...although now that I think about it, EVO was moved up 2 weeks and has a new unannounced venue this year, so maybe this isn't isolated to DEF CON. ...and also the Venetian is having its convention space renovated until 2026...
- tptacek 3y ago
  Black Hat is a giant commercial conference run by a company that runs dozens and dozens of giant commercial conferences. No event venue is ever going to fuck with them.
  - danpalmer 3y ago
    Also Black Hat brings a lot of more-corporate, less-hacker types, who are probably likely to have much higher spend, possibly more gambling, and certainly dining expenses covered.
- Klonoar 3y ago
  IIRC EVO only moved because they outgrew the space/slot they'd been working in. The other reply to you outlines Black Hat. I very much doubt there's any conspiracy here.
  - busterarm 3y ago
    I wasn't suggesting there was?
teepo 3y ago
Combine low ARPU with perceived risk (in the wake of the Vegas hacks last year) and a termination for convenience clause and this is a no brained for Caesars. There’s just not enough upside for Caesars to host in their marquee properties.
- RCitronsBroker 3y ago
  im really sure you have found the answer, it’s most likely more of a perceived thing than any of us wants to admit. DEFCON attendees can be walking stereotypes at times anyways, but the combination of drunk, low yielding hacker(wo)men(tm) roaming your hotel probably just made the juice not worth the squeeze.
- throwaway2037 3y ago
  > termination for convenience clause I never heard of this. Can you tell us more?
  - Stranger43 3y ago
    an good example from an us gov standard contract is here https://www.acquisition.gov/far/52.249-2 https://www.acquisition.gov/far/52.249-2 It's basically "a no harm, no faul" termination of an existing contract, and is fairly common in competitive markets where there is no long term strategic partnership to develop an unique product. If it's the buyer terminating it's either because the product is either no longer needed or an cheaper supplier was found, and if it's the seller it's caused by all sorts of resource optimization reasons(aka someone being willing to pay more for the same limited resources, or an increase in cost making unprofitable).
lend000 3y ago
I've heard stories about "hackers" at former DEF CON's pouring concrete down sinks and doing all sorts of other socially clueless vandalism, and resulting backlash for the organizers. While the infosec community is much bigger and more... "normal" than it was back then, I imagine the guests are still more of a liability than the average conference attendee and as you said, probably not big spenders.
spacebacon 3y ago
The simplest explanation is they don’t like hackers after their experience. So they push a bunch of hackers buttons with a last minute notice and prepare the honey pot to pen test their post ransom security posture and maybe in the process they find an amateur to pin it all on.
- atcalan 3y ago
  Cool. Drop kick a hornets nest in a zorb ball. What could go wrong? Not everyone attending DEFCON is getting 6 figures to red team, I suspect.
  - spacebacon 3y ago
    You are not wrong. Plenty of the attendees really don’t like bullies. It may be interesting.
philshem 3y ago
It may have happened to physicists in 1986, although the APS conference was back in Las Vegas in 2023 https://qz.com/work/1249513/was-a-convention-of-physicists-really-banned-from-las-vegas https://qz.com/work/1249513/was-a-convention-of-physicists-r... (2018)
snarfy 3y ago
I attended an earlier DEF CON (5 or 6?) where the attendees: 1) Hacked the in-circuit TV system and broadcast their own pirate show 2) Gained roof access and removed the satellite dish 3) Spilled hookah coals onto the bed starting a fire 4) drove the janitor's golf cart into the pool and that is only what I witnessed firsthand. I can only imagine what else went on. Maybe the attendees low spend was only part of the equation?
- NegativeK 3y ago
  There are still shenanigans, but all of the wildness has calmed down -- both via goon enforcement and casino staff knowledge. For example, the ATMs on casino floors are probably some of the most secure in the nation during the con. Harassment is also taken actually seriously.
- EvanAnderson 3y ago
  That sounds like DefCon 7 at the Alexis Park. I think I remember seeing a photo of a golf cart in the pool. I quit going after 7. It seemed like they partying had vastly I overtaken any actual technical content. I don't drink and I'm not super social, so it just seemed like it wasn't "for me" anymore. Edit: It has probably changed in the intervening years but every time I looked into it it seemed like more spectacle than tech. DerbyCon filled the niche for me for a few years but then it got impossible to get tickets for and imploded. (I know there's a lot of backstory about DerbyCon that I don't know, too. For me it was just a fun way to feel a little of the DefCon 3 vibes again.)
- hodgesrm 3y ago
  Other than the first item, this does not seem especially extreme by Vegas standards.
  - pc86 3y ago
    You don't think breaking into a secured area and removing expensive hardware from the roof is extreme?
    - 3y ago
jandrese 3y ago
It might be interesting to see what is happening in Caesars during the week DEFCON was supposed to happen.
- nebula8804 3y ago
  ha ha this comment can be interpreted different ways given the audience we are talking about.
EasyMark 3y ago
I think you're on to something. Most DEFCON attendees can do rough calculations in their head that their chances of coming out on top in Las Vegas is extremely unlikely, and choose just look around and buy some drinks and cheap food.
bensherman 3y ago
Found the Trekker!

nimos 3y ago

I doubt they would cancel a contract already in place for that reason. Not renew the contract - sure. But canceling an already scheduled event because of low revenue per guest doesn't seem very likely to me? Or maybe it was some sort of ongoing agreement and canceling it was effectively "not renewing".

johnnyanmac 3y ago
>But canceling an already scheduled event because of low revenue per guest doesn't seem very likely to me? Not to be TOO snarky, but given how quickly corporate cancels employee labor despite rising revenue, it would not surprise me for other corporate to also cancel "low paying customers" for "high paying customers". Loyalty is beyond dead so cancelling a contract is just a cost of business if they feel the alternative gives more money.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > it would not surprise me for other corporate to also cancel "low paying customers" for "high paying customers" At least going by all the entrepreneurship articles I've read over the decade, "firing your customers" is a term of art, and a recommended approach for dealing with unprofitable and/or annoying customers - so I guess this shouldn't be surprising. > Loyalty is beyond dead so cancelling a contract is just a cost of business if they feel the alternative gives more money. Not to be TOO snarky, but that's kind of the point of contracts - contract cancellation terms aren't an "or else..." threat, but rather an agreed upon exit strategy. Termination fines aren't punishment, they're compensation for inconvenience.
  - PrimeMcFly 3y ago
    > Not to be TOO snarky Repeating this verbatim in your reply means you are trying to be pretty snarky, fyi.
    - boringg 3y ago
      I mean they were both being intentionally snarky. The second snarky comment was used in a mocking tone because the first comment didnt seem to have much empirical evidence to support it
      - johnnyanmac 3y ago
        I don't, and that's why I preferenced it as such. Sort of like how you'll self-preface yourself with something like "nit:" before making a nitpick that's meant to be treated as a small note but nothing to consider or delve too strongly over. The idea is to diffuse siutations like this before it comes about, but I guess nothing is perfect.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
- Anechoic 3y ago
  Not to be TOO snarky, but given how quickly corporate cancels employee labor despite rising revenue, it would not surprise me for other corporate to also cancel "low paying customers" for "high paying customers". Loyalty is beyond dead so cancelling a contract is just a cost of business if they feel the alternative gives more money. If they canceled a year or so before the con, I could see that. But to cancel seven month before the conference? There's no way they will get a decent-sized substitute in the space before then, so I don't see how this would be anything but a money-loser. Not to mention other conferences might be less willing to commit to long-term deals if they see that the contract can be canceled on a whim.
flomo 3y ago
Everyone is missing "but now held at the Las Vegas Convention Center (LVCC) with workshops and training at the Sahara" part. So this more like they got passed to a different venue. Not "vegas hates them".
- vertis 3y ago
  The post says they had to do significant work to secure another venue. While it's possible the author could be lying there is no evidence of this so we must, at this point, take them at their word.
  - dsr_ 3y ago
    Arranging a convention site contract is always a lot of work, even if (hypothetically) the Caesar's rep suggested that they try LVCC.
    - vertis 3y ago
      The convention has been in Las Vegas for decades so I suspect they know ALL the options anyway.
technick 3y ago
I will need to dig up the archives from DC 27 when the deal with Caesars forum was officially announced, but if memory serves me correctly DT said it was a 5 or 10 year contract. So unless there was some verbaige in the contract that allows Caesars to cancel for any reason, they're going to be cutting DEFCON a check.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  A 5-year contract starting at DC 27 would hold thru DC 31, so DC 32 fits the "not renewing" hypothesis.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Who knows? But a more likely hypothesis is that the organizers were betting that they could come to terms on a renewal and at the end of the day they couldn't.
- nebula8804 3y ago
  There was some announcement at the closing talks last year of the same venue being booked for the next 2-3 cons I think.
surge 3y ago
I see people go all out in LV and drop a lot of money at restaurants. I guess it depends. Then again if you've already been in LV for a few days due to BH you might be over the bell curve on spending for the week. I guess it depends on when you get in. I tend to drop more money Wed-Thur.
Sebb767 3y ago
> Or maybe it was some sort of ongoing agreement and canceling it was effectively "not renewing". The announcement effectively calls it "no-notice cancellation" and overall it reads like they were already deep in the planning phase when it happened, which seems unlikely if a renewal was pending.
- bawolff 3y ago
  Its odd though - i would assume a conference of this size would have penalties in the contract if the venue decides to pull out without cause or sufficient notice.
  - Arrath 3y ago
    To a point yeah but the venue also has the power not to sign the contract in the first place (ime the venue is the side typically negotiating from the position of power) if they think the penalties are too high on their end. In all likelihood they ran the math and figured it was worth it to yank the rug out from under Defcon, penalties be damned.

p-e-w 3y ago

The simplest explanation is often the correct one. Casinos aren't exactly known for having moral qualms. They are, however, known for caring about their bottom line. They probably analyze every single event they host and then shuffle things around to maximize their expected revenue based on their past experiences with the same type of event.

metabagel 3y ago
Put another way, they got a better offer
- Eji1700 3y ago
  That’s the weird part. I doubt they’re using the space so this strikes me as “think of the money we’ll save on hours” bean counting
  - alephnerd 3y ago
    Companies/Vendors usually host corporate conferences around this time as well. A large company has probably decided to move a conference to Caesar's during that period, and that got Defcon bumped. Especially because DefCon has become massive, so the RoI has shrunk due to staffing overhead.

mirekrusin 3y ago

Or they figured they're somehow net negative when they do gamble :D

c0pium 3y ago
There are certainly a lot of DefCon attendees who think that this describes them. In my observation they are all very incorrect, usually humorously so fortunately.
- smt88 3y ago
  My first thought was that GP was saying DefCon attendees would be counting cards, which is an effective and legal way to beat the house[1] (until you're caught and banned from the casino). 1. https://www.freep.com/story/entertainment/nightlife/2016/04/05/mark-pilarski-casinos-counting-cards/82538428/ https://www.freep.com/story/entertainment/nightlife/2016/04/...
  - daveguy 3y ago
    Casinos in Vegas use too many decks and reshuffle frequently enough that there is no edge gained over the house when card counting.
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - Kirby64 3y ago
      This is not true. Besides continuous shuffler machines, most casinos have 6 or 8 deck games that have plenty of 'penetration' (card counter term for depth into the deck that the cut card is placed) to offer an edge if you properly card count. There's also a big game to be played where rubes think they can card count and instead lose tons of money attempting to do so. The problem with card counting generally is that the casino has infinite money and never runs out, thereby they can sustain large expected value swings... whereas you need an enormous bankroll to handle those swings, assuming they don't throw you out before that happens.

NanoYohaneTSU 3y ago

Not everything is about money or the bottom line. Sometimes it's about politics. Vegas takes a loss on so many things. Nevada has grown more and more corporate over the years. This move doesn't surprise me at all.

jfoutz 3y ago
> Sometimes it's about politics. > Nevada has grown more and more corporate over the years. You make it sound like it's entirely about money and the bottom line. I have a hard time believing gaming doesn't provide _huge_ contributions to favorable politicians. I feel like you've got something to say, and maybe something really interesting. But what you've got if awfully vague. If you've got the time or inclination, I'd definitely read an elaboration of your meaning.
- NanoYohaneTSU 3y ago
  Ideologically Clark County has changed from the influx of Silicon Valley influences starting in the 90s, which is why we have CES here. Financially the strips have massive amounts of money flowing into it from every angle. Construction is booming and housing cannot keep up with the demand. If you view LV from the surface then it seems like the economy is trashed - lower travel rates, millennials are not into gaming as much, and the virtualization of gaming is competing. But the reality is business for "living" is doing better than ever before. Because recent politics has changed ideologies with modern corporations several things have changed. For example skids were never part of LV ever, but that has changed in the last 10 years directly because of these ideologies. https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-first-public-needle-vending-machine-for-drug-users-debuts-in-vegas/ https://www.cbsnews.com/news/u-s-first-public-needle-vending... Do you think these same Corporations look fondly upon DEFCON? They would push it out eventually as it's not safe-hacking.
MattGaiser 3y ago
Is DEF CON a highly political thing?
jrockway 3y ago
What are the politics? One of the richest and most profitable industries on Earth wants to have a conference where they show slide shows to each other. Really not much different than any other conference, and probably more ethical than most of them.

nodesocket 3y ago

Doubtful, I'm sure it's related to the constant attacks against their infrastructure they must defend against (let's be honest, I'm sure Caesars is not defending successfully). The juice just ain't worth the squeeze. They have a business to run, and the risk of having a bunch of drunken and high hackers who happen to be the best in the world running amuck is not their idea of a good corporate event.

lolinder 3y ago
Caesar's apparently explicitly said it wasn't related to anything the community did. It's possible that they're lying for some reason, but it's also possible that they're telling the truth. > We don’t know why Caesars canceled us, they won’t say beyond it being a strategy change and it is not related to anything that DEF CON or our community has done. https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1aj6ixn/def_con_was_canceled_but_we_uncanceled_it/ https://www.reddit.com/r/Defcon/comments/1aj6ixn/def_con_was...
- andy800 3y ago
  > for some reason To avoid any legal liability. Stating a specific reason would open them to possible "breach of contract" depending on whether the act(s) were significant enough or justifiable, based on the contract terms. Just say nothing, part amicably, everyone moves on without drama. With that said, they probably weren't lying. Most likely, months after ponying up $10 million to a sophisticated international hacking group, Caesars Entertainment probably doesn't want to invite some of the world's best hackers to stay and meet at its flagship resort.
  - lolinder 3y ago
    > To avoid any legal liability. Stating a specific reason would open them to possible "breach of contract" depending on whether the act(s) were significant enough or justifiable, based on the contract terms. This is how it works for at-will employment, but it would be a very weird contract that allows backing out only if you don't say why you're backing out.

fortran77 3y ago

> They also probably spend less on high-end restaurant dining and bar drinking inside the hotel. I'm not so sure. There's a _lot_ of drinking at DEF CON

rdl 3y ago
It's mostly with liquor bought from offsite and drunk in rooms/private parties, not via Caesar's venues or catering (there's a lot of that too, and this is summer dead period, so it still may be good).
- kortilla 3y ago
  I explicitly remember them tapping out every keg at a bar there by 2pm about 10 years ago.
- kstrauser 3y ago
  I can think of plenty of in-hotel bars packed with DEF CON attendees 24 hours a day during the conference.
  - hyperhopper 3y ago
    The linq bar turned into a 24hr party after the bomb threat last year
    - andy800 3y ago
      A bomb threat last year? Hmmm, I wonder why Caesars chose not to renew the contract.
      - jeltz 3y ago
        Yeah, I think those things are more likely to be the issue. Tech people tend not to be shy with racking up huge bar tabs.
      - jstarfish 3y ago

Orlan 3y ago

So… see you at Magic Live?

cratermoon 3y ago

I heard a joke a tech conference people in Vegas many years ago. It goes something like "people who go to tech conferences in Vegas bring one shirt and a $20 bill and never change either." So yea, programmers generally aren't gamblers because they know enough math to know the house always wins.

rpmisms 3y ago
In my experience, programmers like poker, but not games of chance. This also describes me. Poker is a data-heavy game of skill and memory, Craps is about the opposite.
- basil-rash 3y ago
  Craps is not the opposite. Quite the opposite, actually. The magnitude of entropy casinos require you inject into the system each round is quite low in practice. Profiting off of that is all skill.
- mynameisnoone 3y ago
  I went with a bunch of CS/bioinformatics/MD IITians to Reno, NV once. They were just there to gamble on games of chance. Personally, I think gambling is boring and stupid if the expectation isn't significantly positive. I'd gamble if skill was the dominating factor and the expectation wasn't so abysmal.
  - guappa 3y ago
    If it was skill based, you'd be competing against a pro who does nothing else. At least with chance you have a chance :)
  - basil-rash 3y ago
    If skill is the dominating factor, almost by definition it isn’t gambling. This is what allows bars and other institutions not licensed as gambling centers to host poker games. (which might be of interest to you)
  - 3y ago

kortilla 3y ago

Gambling isn’t the big margin for the casino and hackers aren’t immune to gambling. Most people who gamble know the odds aren’t in their favor.

quickthrower2 3y ago
What is the big margin? Rooms?
xmprt 3y ago
What's the big margin for the casino if not gambling?
pxeboot 3y ago
You can view their financial statements [1]. I am sure the 'casino' category includes things besides gambling, but it looks like the largest share of their revenue. [1] https://investor.caesars.com/news-releases/news-release-details/caesars-entertainment-inc-reports-fourth-quarter-and-full-year-0 https://investor.caesars.com/news-releases/news-release-deta...
- somenameforme 3y ago
  Be sure to subtract expenses. So for 2022 you have 2500 for casino, 500 for food, 1500 for hotel, 800 for "other." And there's definitely some counterintuitive accounting going on there, because that 2500 would imply a profit margin of 41% on casino, but Vegas regulations require gaming machines to pay out at least 75%, leaving a profit margin max of 25%. The card games and other games of skill wouldn't have such restrictions, but it seems pretty difficult to imagine that they'd be high enough margin to result an overall of 41%.
  - zmgsabst 3y ago
    You seem to misunderstand the 75% rate: The requirement is that the expected value for a play on a machine is >75%. And most are >90%. But that’s not a cap on profit margin, as 25% of the expense for a play may be more than the cost of that play. Eg, having a machine that costs $1 with $0.75 expected return (and $0.25 revenue for the casino) may only cost the casino $0.10 a play — which would be a 60% profit margin.

weinzierl 3y ago

"I suspect Caesar's dropped DEF CON because the DEF CON attendees likely have a fairly low "avg revenue per attendee" yield because fewer of them gamble compared to the avg Vegas conference attendee." There is the story that the American Physical Society was not allowed back after in 1986 Vegas supposedly suffered its worst week in history. First of all there is no real evidence that this story is true and secondly it doesn't make sense to me that they would cancel DEF CON after so many years for that reason. They would have done so much earlier, probably. https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/39668/did-a-casino-in-las-vegas-suffer-its-worst-week-in-history-after-hosting-a-physi https://skeptics.stackexchange.com/questions/39668/did-a-cas...

elashri 3y ago
I heard this story many times. One of them was froma graduate student who attended this meeting. APS March meeting happened in Las Vegas again last year (2023). While there was no official ban for APS Conferences, there was a little interest in las vegas to host anything for APS for a ~35 years.

busterarm 3y ago

All of the more recent years that I did DEF CON I was with large groups of people going to high end restaurants and (ab)using the hotel bars. In fact the hotel bars were always packed. My suspicion is that Caesars is trying to do something like play with headcount. Late summer is not just a weak time for conferences but DEF CON needs a ton more space and a ton more human babysitting across that space than any other conference. You don't see EVO or BlackHat getting cancelled (same exactly time window) because they're pretty contained in one place. My guess is that Caesars needs to staff up a little for DEF CON or that they may even be considering reducing staffing in late summer. Con attendees are going to stay at their properties and use their bars/restaurants/tables anyway. ...although now that I think about it, EVO was moved up 2 weeks and has a new unannounced venue this year, so maybe this isn't isolated to DEF CON. ...and also the Venetian is having its convention space renovated until 2026...

tptacek 3y ago
Black Hat is a giant commercial conference run by a company that runs dozens and dozens of giant commercial conferences. No event venue is ever going to fuck with them.
- danpalmer 3y ago
  Also Black Hat brings a lot of more-corporate, less-hacker types, who are probably likely to have much higher spend, possibly more gambling, and certainly dining expenses covered.
Klonoar 3y ago
IIRC EVO only moved because they outgrew the space/slot they'd been working in. The other reply to you outlines Black Hat. I very much doubt there's any conspiracy here.
- busterarm 3y ago
  I wasn't suggesting there was?

teepo 3y ago

Combine low ARPU with perceived risk (in the wake of the Vegas hacks last year) and a termination for convenience clause and this is a no brained for Caesars. There’s just not enough upside for Caesars to host in their marquee properties.

RCitronsBroker 3y ago
im really sure you have found the answer, it’s most likely more of a perceived thing than any of us wants to admit. DEFCON attendees can be walking stereotypes at times anyways, but the combination of drunk, low yielding hacker(wo)men(tm) roaming your hotel probably just made the juice not worth the squeeze.
throwaway2037 3y ago
> termination for convenience clause I never heard of this. Can you tell us more?
- Stranger43 3y ago
  an good example from an us gov standard contract is here https://www.acquisition.gov/far/52.249-2 https://www.acquisition.gov/far/52.249-2 It's basically "a no harm, no faul" termination of an existing contract, and is fairly common in competitive markets where there is no long term strategic partnership to develop an unique product. If it's the buyer terminating it's either because the product is either no longer needed or an cheaper supplier was found, and if it's the seller it's caused by all sorts of resource optimization reasons(aka someone being willing to pay more for the same limited resources, or an increase in cost making unprofitable).

lend000 3y ago

I've heard stories about "hackers" at former DEF CON's pouring concrete down sinks and doing all sorts of other socially clueless vandalism, and resulting backlash for the organizers. While the infosec community is much bigger and more... "normal" than it was back then, I imagine the guests are still more of a liability than the average conference attendee and as you said, probably not big spenders.

spacebacon 3y ago

The simplest explanation is they don’t like hackers after their experience. So they push a bunch of hackers buttons with a last minute notice and prepare the honey pot to pen test their post ransom security posture and maybe in the process they find an amateur to pin it all on.

atcalan 3y ago
Cool. Drop kick a hornets nest in a zorb ball. What could go wrong? Not everyone attending DEFCON is getting 6 figures to red team, I suspect.
- spacebacon 3y ago
  You are not wrong. Plenty of the attendees really don’t like bullies. It may be interesting.

philshem 3y ago

It may have happened to physicists in 1986, although the APS conference was back in Las Vegas in 2023 https://qz.com/work/1249513/was-a-convention-of-physicists-really-banned-from-las-vegas https://qz.com/work/1249513/was-a-convention-of-physicists-r... (2018)

snarfy 3y ago

I attended an earlier DEF CON (5 or 6?) where the attendees: 1) Hacked the in-circuit TV system and broadcast their own pirate show 2) Gained roof access and removed the satellite dish 3) Spilled hookah coals onto the bed starting a fire 4) drove the janitor's golf cart into the pool and that is only what I witnessed firsthand. I can only imagine what else went on. Maybe the attendees low spend was only part of the equation?

NegativeK 3y ago
There are still shenanigans, but all of the wildness has calmed down -- both via goon enforcement and casino staff knowledge. For example, the ATMs on casino floors are probably some of the most secure in the nation during the con. Harassment is also taken actually seriously.
EvanAnderson 3y ago
That sounds like DefCon 7 at the Alexis Park. I think I remember seeing a photo of a golf cart in the pool. I quit going after 7. It seemed like they partying had vastly I overtaken any actual technical content. I don't drink and I'm not super social, so it just seemed like it wasn't "for me" anymore. Edit: It has probably changed in the intervening years but every time I looked into it it seemed like more spectacle than tech. DerbyCon filled the niche for me for a few years but then it got impossible to get tickets for and imploded. (I know there's a lot of backstory about DerbyCon that I don't know, too. For me it was just a fun way to feel a little of the DefCon 3 vibes again.)
hodgesrm 3y ago
Other than the first item, this does not seem especially extreme by Vegas standards.
- pc86 3y ago
  You don't think breaking into a secured area and removing expensive hardware from the roof is extreme?
  - 3y ago

jandrese 3y ago

It might be interesting to see what is happening in Caesars during the week DEFCON was supposed to happen.

nebula8804 3y ago
ha ha this comment can be interpreted different ways given the audience we are talking about.

EasyMark 3y ago

I think you're on to something. Most DEFCON attendees can do rough calculations in their head that their chances of coming out on top in Las Vegas is extremely unlikely, and choose just look around and buy some drinks and cheap food.

bensherman 3y ago

Found the Trekker!