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https://youtu.be/mLEOZO1GwVc?t=735 https://youtu.be/mLEOZO1GwVc?t=735 The Dutch language quote as displayed: "We mogen niet uit nonchalance fouten in een progr

by rednab 3y ago

https://youtu.be/mLEOZO1GwVc?t=735 https://youtu.be/mLEOZO1GwVc?t=735 The Dutch language quote as displayed: "We mogen niet uit nonchalance fouten in een programma aanbrengen. Dat moeten we systematisch en met zorg doen.". Feel free to run that through your favorite translator. The subtitles: "We should not introduce errors through sloppiness but systematically keep them out." The translator missed a very dry and very Dijkstra joke.

noirscape 3y ago
As a native dutch speaker here's how I would translate it: "We shouldn't add errors to software out of negligence. They should be added systematically and carefully."
- amelius 3y ago
  Yes, and so always attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
- jbverschoor 3y ago
  I’d translate it more like out of carelessness/arrogance
  - vidarh 3y ago
    Nonchalance is in English dictionaries.
- OnlyMortal 3y ago
  Literal translation: “That must we systematically and with care do”.
mp05 3y ago
"We should not introduce errors into a program out of carelessness. We must do this systematically and with care." That's pretty funny, too bad.
WhitneyLand 3y ago
From your comment it sounds like Gpt-4 got it? “We must not introduce errors into a program out of carelessness. We must do it systematically and with care.” Dijkstra’s statement appears to be a bit of dry humor. He’s known for his wit and often used irony in his statements. The idea of deliberately and carefully introducing errors into a program is clearly absurd, which is the joke. It’s his way of emphasizing the importance of being meticulous and systematic in programming to avoid errors.
TrackerFF 3y ago
As a Norwegian, I always found Dutch interesting. It is just close enough, that I can read it and get the gist of the message, without actually knowing Dutch. It is much easier than, say, German. I read the message as: "We must not carelessly introduce errors to a program, but rather systematically and with care" The joke being that we introduce the errors systematically and with care.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  How much German do you know? As a Norwegian Dutch is completely Greek to me. I did take German in school although none of it stuck besides some pointless(in isolation) grammar rules.
  - vidarh 3y ago
    Also Norwegian, and I'm with the person above, but I think it depends a lot on your Norwegian dialect, maybe? The more towards conservative bokmål you get, or even exposure to older Danish, the easier both Dutch and German gets. I think reading a lot of pre-WW1 novels helped my German quite a bit. I'll note the biggest reason why Dutch may seem somewhat closer than modern German is that modern German is mostly High (Southern) German. Low German common in the Northern parts of Germany before lies closer to the continuum between Dutch and the Scandinavian languages (for example it didn't got through the same consonant shift and still has Dag for day/dag instead of Tag). There are many words in Dutch that you might recognize as similar to Norwegian that you might be marginally more likely to fail to recognise in modern German because the spelling is slightly more different.
    - holgerschurig 3y ago
      > is that modern German is mostly High (Southern) German Absolutely not. South german is for me Badisch, Schwäbisch, Bayrisch und Alemannisch (Badian, Swabian, Bavarian and Alemmannian --- similar to Swabian, but with lots of differences, e.g. we have "gwä-Schwaben" und "xsi-Schwaben". But perhaps my other understanding stems from the fact the "Hochdeutsch" (high german) can mean different things. E.g. the german wikipedia has a disambiguation page https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochdeutsch https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochdeutsch for it. I interpreted it to be the "normal" german we all speak if we don't speak a german dialect. Or, in other words, the first link of that disambiguation page: standard german. And that is a result of some "norming process", initiated mostly by the brothers Grimm, i.E. they wrote the first generally accepted german dictionary. Generally we can say that this process started in the 17th century, with it's high in the 18th. So it's quite modern, long after dialects formed. And they didn't life and work in southern Germany, but quite in the center, the area between Hanau and Göttingen. If we look for dialects there, when we see that they are influenced by frankonian and saxonian dialect --- not the modern day Saxonia, but the historical one. The border between both empires goes right through the working area of the Grimms, e.g. the german town "Frankfurt" has a "Sachsenhausen" at the over side of the river. Or north of Marburg you have "Frankenberg" and "Frankenau" but also "Sachsenberg" and another "Sachsenhausen". These old kingdoms created language differences ... but they have nothing to do with southern german dialects / languages. However, the various "Plattdeutsch" dialects like Plattduitsk or Frisian are totally different, here you're correct. They are categorized usually as "lower german" (Platt => flat => lower), North See Germanic, West Germanic, Germanic, Indogermanic.
jacquesm 3y ago
That's hilarious. I think the translator may have decided not to want to confuse the audience with the Dutch sense of humor.
raverbashing 3y ago
I don't think the translator necessarily missed the joke, but had to fit the phrase in the available space (which is an issue when subtitling and an even bigger issue when dubbing)

by rednab 3y ago

noirscape 3y ago

As a native dutch speaker here's how I would translate it: "We shouldn't add errors to software out of negligence. They should be added systematically and carefully."

amelius 3y ago
Yes, and so always attribute to malice that which is adequately explained by stupidity.
jbverschoor 3y ago
I’d translate it more like out of carelessness/arrogance
- vidarh 3y ago
  Nonchalance is in English dictionaries.
OnlyMortal 3y ago
Literal translation: “That must we systematically and with care do”.

mp05 3y ago

"We should not introduce errors into a program out of carelessness. We must do this systematically and with care." That's pretty funny, too bad.

WhitneyLand 3y ago

From your comment it sounds like Gpt-4 got it? “We must not introduce errors into a program out of carelessness. We must do it systematically and with care.” Dijkstra’s statement appears to be a bit of dry humor. He’s known for his wit and often used irony in his statements. The idea of deliberately and carefully introducing errors into a program is clearly absurd, which is the joke. It’s his way of emphasizing the importance of being meticulous and systematic in programming to avoid errors.

TrackerFF 3y ago

As a Norwegian, I always found Dutch interesting. It is just close enough, that I can read it and get the gist of the message, without actually knowing Dutch. It is much easier than, say, German. I read the message as: "We must not carelessly introduce errors to a program, but rather systematically and with care" The joke being that we introduce the errors systematically and with care.

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
How much German do you know? As a Norwegian Dutch is completely Greek to me. I did take German in school although none of it stuck besides some pointless(in isolation) grammar rules.
- vidarh 3y ago
  Also Norwegian, and I'm with the person above, but I think it depends a lot on your Norwegian dialect, maybe? The more towards conservative bokmål you get, or even exposure to older Danish, the easier both Dutch and German gets. I think reading a lot of pre-WW1 novels helped my German quite a bit. I'll note the biggest reason why Dutch may seem somewhat closer than modern German is that modern German is mostly High (Southern) German. Low German common in the Northern parts of Germany before lies closer to the continuum between Dutch and the Scandinavian languages (for example it didn't got through the same consonant shift and still has Dag for day/dag instead of Tag). There are many words in Dutch that you might recognize as similar to Norwegian that you might be marginally more likely to fail to recognise in modern German because the spelling is slightly more different.
  - holgerschurig 3y ago
    > is that modern German is mostly High (Southern) German Absolutely not. South german is for me Badisch, Schwäbisch, Bayrisch und Alemannisch (Badian, Swabian, Bavarian and Alemmannian --- similar to Swabian, but with lots of differences, e.g. we have "gwä-Schwaben" und "xsi-Schwaben". But perhaps my other understanding stems from the fact the "Hochdeutsch" (high german) can mean different things. E.g. the german wikipedia has a disambiguation page https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochdeutsch https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hochdeutsch for it. I interpreted it to be the "normal" german we all speak if we don't speak a german dialect. Or, in other words, the first link of that disambiguation page: standard german. And that is a result of some "norming process", initiated mostly by the brothers Grimm, i.E. they wrote the first generally accepted german dictionary. Generally we can say that this process started in the 17th century, with it's high in the 18th. So it's quite modern, long after dialects formed. And they didn't life and work in southern Germany, but quite in the center, the area between Hanau and Göttingen. If we look for dialects there, when we see that they are influenced by frankonian and saxonian dialect --- not the modern day Saxonia, but the historical one. The border between both empires goes right through the working area of the Grimms, e.g. the german town "Frankfurt" has a "Sachsenhausen" at the over side of the river. Or north of Marburg you have "Frankenberg" and "Frankenau" but also "Sachsenberg" and another "Sachsenhausen". These old kingdoms created language differences ... but they have nothing to do with southern german dialects / languages. However, the various "Plattdeutsch" dialects like Plattduitsk or Frisian are totally different, here you're correct. They are categorized usually as "lower german" (Platt => flat => lower), North See Germanic, West Germanic, Germanic, Indogermanic.

jacquesm 3y ago

That's hilarious. I think the translator may have decided not to want to confuse the audience with the Dutch sense of humor.

raverbashing 3y ago

I don't think the translator necessarily missed the joke, but had to fit the phrase in the available space (which is an issue when subtitling and an even bigger issue when dubbing)