3 ms·

But how would you know if your work is better (and safer) than what a professional delivers? The professionals, in theory, have more experience and more knowled

But how would you know if your work is better (and safer) than what a professional delivers? The professionals, in theory, have more experience and more knowledge in depth than an amateur; and if an amateur has greater knowledge than a professional, is he really an amateur still? Of course, some things might be obvious to an amateur or a lay person (walls not straight, for example), while others might be more subtle and deadly at the same time (foundation issues). > DIY electronics and working with mains are perfectly ok That's great to hear! Now let me connect this beefy microwave oven transformer to the mains and do some electrical wood burning, surely it will perfectly ok

jacquesm 3y ago
> But how would you know if your work is better (and safer) than what a professional delivers? Common sense? > The professionals, in theory, have more experience and more knowledge in depth than an amateur; and if an amateur has greater knowledge than a professional, is he really an amateur still? An amateur is someone who doesn't do what he does professionally, a professional is someone who makes a living with the thing they do. That doesn't say anything about their knowledge level. But when you're a professional and you claim that you are 'done' with the installation and I spot: a HV DC wire pinched between a panel and the mounting rail, a HV DC wire (the + terminal) run through the cooling ribs of the inverter (sharp af near the ends) and a mains cable whose connectors aren't torqued down to the point that I smell ozone then you have to wonder. Note that there is a distinguishing factor with solar installers: they are not afraid of heights. Electrical knowledge is apparently secondary. > Of course, some things might be obvious to an amateur or a lay person (walls not straight, for example), while others might be more subtle and deadly at the same time (foundation issues). The above are a mix between obvious and non-obvious but those guys probably did 400 installations last year and if my n=1 sample is any indication then I wouldn't be surprised if they left some latent problems behind them. > Now let me connect this beefy microwave oven transformer to the mains and do some electrical wood burning, surely it will perfectly ok If you insist on being stupid then I don't think that's a fair way of conversing here. You can use common sense, read the electrical code (though it's an expensive book, which is kind of weird, you'd expect it to be free) and you can get yourself some basic knowledge about electricity and electronics all the while doing nothing more 'scary' than using batteries or sitting on the far side of an insulation transformer. If and when you feel ready for it you can switch to mains powered stuff. The scariest stuff to work on: old fashioned tube based color TVs but I haven't seen any of those in a couple of decades. Other than that, I would be very careful with a microwave because it is probably easy to create a radiation leak and I don't have the proper gear to detect one. So I'd stay away from that. Again: common sense.
- GeoAtreides 3y ago
  The point is that what's common sense to an engineer is different than what's common sense for a lay person or an amateur. Their way of thinking is different. A lay person is not aware, doesn't know and can't mentally model the kind of power a microwave transformer can deliver: it's almost (almost!) an out of context problem for them. They just saw the pretty fractal wood burnings on tiktok and want to try themselves. And then they die[1] That's the point of all the scary warnings, caveats and reminders. They're there for not-engineer-minded folks, so that they don't hurt themselves or set their house on fire. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_burning#Safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_burning#Safety
- crote 3y ago
  > Common sense? Unfortunately common sense isn't as common as you'd hope, and there are plenty of things which are "common sense" among amateurs which are simply untrue. > An amateur is someone who doesn't do what he does professionally, a professional is someone who makes a living with the thing they do. That doesn't say anything about their knowledge level. Professionals usually also have formal training, which means they are at least somewhat familiar with the theory behind what they are doing. PV installation is indeed a well-known cowboy industry right now, but I can assure you that an actual electrical engineer will be way more capable than a random hobbyist when it comes to actually designing electronics. Your one experience with a single PV installer does not scale to the entire industry of electronics.
  - kwhitefoot 3y ago
    > an actual electrical engineer An actual electrical engineer is unlikely to have the necessary certification to do electrical installation work for someone else. What you want is an electrician.
  - sokoloff 3y ago
    > I can assure you that an actual electrical engineer will be way more capable than a random hobbyist when it comes to actually designing electronics. A randomly chosen EE better than a randomly chosen hobbyist? Sure. A randomly chosen EE better than all hobbyists who’d be inclined to take on such a project? I seriously doubt it.
ThrowawayTestr 3y ago
Just because you don't trust yourself with mains power doesn't mean every hobbyist will burn their house down.

jacquesm 3y ago

> But how would you know if your work is better (and safer) than what a professional delivers? Common sense? > The professionals, in theory, have more experience and more knowledge in depth than an amateur; and if an amateur has greater knowledge than a professional, is he really an amateur still? An amateur is someone who doesn't do what he does professionally, a professional is someone who makes a living with the thing they do. That doesn't say anything about their knowledge level. But when you're a professional and you claim that you are 'done' with the installation and I spot: a HV DC wire pinched between a panel and the mounting rail, a HV DC wire (the + terminal) run through the cooling ribs of the inverter (sharp af near the ends) and a mains cable whose connectors aren't torqued down to the point that I smell ozone then you have to wonder. Note that there is a distinguishing factor with solar installers: they are not afraid of heights. Electrical knowledge is apparently secondary. > Of course, some things might be obvious to an amateur or a lay person (walls not straight, for example), while others might be more subtle and deadly at the same time (foundation issues). The above are a mix between obvious and non-obvious but those guys probably did 400 installations last year and if my n=1 sample is any indication then I wouldn't be surprised if they left some latent problems behind them. > Now let me connect this beefy microwave oven transformer to the mains and do some electrical wood burning, surely it will perfectly ok If you insist on being stupid then I don't think that's a fair way of conversing here. You can use common sense, read the electrical code (though it's an expensive book, which is kind of weird, you'd expect it to be free) and you can get yourself some basic knowledge about electricity and electronics all the while doing nothing more 'scary' than using batteries or sitting on the far side of an insulation transformer. If and when you feel ready for it you can switch to mains powered stuff. The scariest stuff to work on: old fashioned tube based color TVs but I haven't seen any of those in a couple of decades. Other than that, I would be very careful with a microwave because it is probably easy to create a radiation leak and I don't have the proper gear to detect one. So I'd stay away from that. Again: common sense.

GeoAtreides 3y ago
The point is that what's common sense to an engineer is different than what's common sense for a lay person or an amateur. Their way of thinking is different. A lay person is not aware, doesn't know and can't mentally model the kind of power a microwave transformer can deliver: it's almost (almost!) an out of context problem for them. They just saw the pretty fractal wood burnings on tiktok and want to try themselves. And then they die[1] That's the point of all the scary warnings, caveats and reminders. They're there for not-engineer-minded folks, so that they don't hurt themselves or set their house on fire. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_burning#Safety https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fractal_burning#Safety
crote 3y ago
> Common sense? Unfortunately common sense isn't as common as you'd hope, and there are plenty of things which are "common sense" among amateurs which are simply untrue. > An amateur is someone who doesn't do what he does professionally, a professional is someone who makes a living with the thing they do. That doesn't say anything about their knowledge level. Professionals usually also have formal training, which means they are at least somewhat familiar with the theory behind what they are doing. PV installation is indeed a well-known cowboy industry right now, but I can assure you that an actual electrical engineer will be way more capable than a random hobbyist when it comes to actually designing electronics. Your one experience with a single PV installer does not scale to the entire industry of electronics.
- kwhitefoot 3y ago
  > an actual electrical engineer An actual electrical engineer is unlikely to have the necessary certification to do electrical installation work for someone else. What you want is an electrician.
- sokoloff 3y ago
  > I can assure you that an actual electrical engineer will be way more capable than a random hobbyist when it comes to actually designing electronics. A randomly chosen EE better than a randomly chosen hobbyist? Sure. A randomly chosen EE better than all hobbyists who’d be inclined to take on such a project? I seriously doubt it.

ThrowawayTestr 3y ago

Just because you don't trust yourself with mains power doesn't mean every hobbyist will burn their house down.