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The King of Curcumin: a case study in consequences of large-scale research fraud
- suprjami 3y agoIs there a current summary of what Curcumin can actually do?
- Mistletoe 3y ago>Curcumin doesn’t work well as a therapeutic agent for any disease. Though it is safe for human consumption in most forms and will show activity in essentially any in vitro assay you throw at it (via a process known as assay interference), no well-powered clinical trials have ever found it to be an effective medicine.
- BlueTemplar 3y ago> …and none of this mentions the recent discovery that turmeric supplements were being cut or substituted with lead chromate, which apparently, if surprisingly, is cheaper. At least it is indisputably bioactive….
- stevenAthompson 3y agoLead chromate is fine for the most part. The LD50 for rats is only 5,000 mg/kg. It's still used in pigments widely. In humans it would take a heroic dose to do anything nasty.
- BlueTemplar 3y agoHuh, so were all those claims about fakes being a big health issue overblown ?? Even for kids ??
- stevenAthompson 3y agoThe FDA knows better than I do, and I'm glad they issued recalls. There's no reason for any lead chromate to be in anything you consume. That said I read several of the recall notices and the recalls were for products containing like 50-100ppm of lead chromate, not lead, in something people typically consume less than a gram per day of in supplemnt form. Even for a child it would take regular use of large amounts to add up to any real impact. This was the FDA showing zero tolerance, as they should, but I don't think anyone was actually harmed, and it's not a reason to panic.
- BlueTemplar 3y agoI was thinking about Bangladesh, not the USA : https://m.timesofindia.com/lead-chromate-was-being-used-to-brighten-turmeric-it-damaged-adult-health-and-child-iq-costing-trillions/articleshow/106582709.cms https://m.timesofindia.com/lead-chromate-was-being-used-to-b... (Their "costing trillions" claim might be overblown.)
- stevenAthompson 3y agoThanks for that link. It's a fascinating story. My perspective, and my comments, were US biased.
- alephnullshabba 3y agoIt seems reasonable to assume it does virtually nothing. Like nearly every trendy non-rx supplement that has been around for this long, if there were any substantive medical benefits that could be demonstrated empirically in clinical drug trials, a prescription variant would have emerged. (As was the case with prescription fish oil, and this is in spite of most fish oil on the supplement market being of extremely low quality and consumed as a result of outright nonsensical medical claims)
- user_7832 3y agoI think the important distinction is whether someone is already very healthy or not. > Like nearly every trendy non-rx supplement that has been around for this long, if there were any substantive medical benefits that could be demonstrated empirically in clinical drug trials, a prescription variant would have emerged This is unfortunately not completely correct. Vitamin D supplements don't appear to do anything to me, even though my doc prescribed it. But NAC (for example) is not commonly prescribed even though many people have reported a reduction of OCD behaviour. L Tyrosine can be almost as effective as ADHD medication for some, yet even though it is well known in nootropic circles the doctor will rather prescribe a medical stimulant. The reason is probably just "FDA approval"/safety in most cases, but make no mistake, current prescriptions are years to decades behind current medical research. (I can expand more if you'd like.)
- nextos 3y agoThere are serious clinical trials with randomization and placebo that have repeatedly shown vitamin D supplementation reduces autoimmune disease rate. For example [1]. Obviously, the effect of a compound that does not require prescription and has few side effects is modest. But we are talking about a two digit % reduction in incidence, which is pretty respectable. At individual level, it is of course hard to see any effect. And if you are in trouble already, you will typically need, something stronger, a drug. [1] https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj-2021-066452.full https://www.bmj.com/content/376/bmj-2021-066452.full
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- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y agoBasically nothing since you just poop all of it out. There are some very few cases of liver damage associated with curcumin. No meaningful clinical applications have been found in non-fraudulent studies.
- perlclutcher 3y agoMy go-to site for questions like this is examine.com. https://examine.com/supplements/curcumin/ https://examine.com/supplements/curcumin/ So yeah, like sibling said, it doesn't seem to do much.
- user_7832 3y agoFrom the linked website, right at the top: > Curcumin is the primary bioactive substance in turmeric. It has anti-inflammatory properties, and there is decent evidence that it can alleviate various conditions, from chronic pain to depression. Curcumin has poor bioavailability on its own, and thus it is often combined with Black Pepper or with lipids. I'm not sure how you got " it doesn't seem to do much"?
- wslh 3y agoI am a subscriber of Examine and I wonder how these frauds impact on their database.
- jeroenhd 3y agoThe very second reference on that page is to a paper by the fraudster. The first link is to a compound study of five studies, including one of the fraudster. The fourth reference cites Aggarwal as well, and no doubt the chain continues. I can't tell how much of the linked effects are based on retracted papers (it's all members-only), but I wouldn't trust these websites too much until every dubious paper has been retracted and websites like these have been updated, if they will be updated at all. Most scientific research into the substance seems to be based (at least in part) on Aggarwal's work, so in turn most of the research needs to be re-evaluated; that's a lot of tedious work, and I'm not sure if websites like these will have the manpower to do that.
- stevenAthompson 3y agoI took it as a supplement, mixed with piperine to help it pass into the blood stream. For me it was a mild stimulant like nicotine, without the addictive part. I was smarter and more nervous when I took it. Those are the only effects I can personally attest to.
- stevenAthompson 3y agoActually, I did lose some weight over that time. Correlation may not be causation in that case.
- nerdponx 3y agoTurmeric is magical with fried onions.
- Aurornis 3y agoCurcumin, the compound, seems to do a lot of little things in studies when injected into rats at high doses. You can find reports of everything from anti-inflammatory to anti-depressant like effects in mouse/rat models. Curcumin, the substance you can buy on Amazon and take orally, seems to do very little. Not much of it gets into your blood so there isn't much comparison to the mouser/rat studies. There are formulations that try to get more into your system (piperine or various lipid encapsulations) but little real-world evidence. From watching forums on and off for years, I can say that nobody seems impressed with it for depression or anxiety (beyond some short placebo periods). I have seen some people claim that certain formulations reduce inflammation for them, but they've come with caveats that it can also reduce things like libido at those doses.
- ChrisArchitect 3y agoAlot of this around today? Related earlier: Fake scientific papers push research credibility to crisis point https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39241643 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39241643 The scientists fighting the epidemic of fraudulent science research https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39244601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39244601
- dang 3y agoYes—usually it's better to post follow-up links in the related ongoing thread, so the discussion doesn't get split. Researchers taking on fraudulent science - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39244601 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=39244601 - Feb 2024 (57 comments)
- progbits 3y ago> However, self-correction has a high cost in the present: [...] thousands of cancer patients enrolled in clinical trials for ineffective treatments, and countless people who have eschewed expensive and invasive but effective cancer treatment in favor of a store-bought spice, encouraged by research steeped in lies. If intentional fraud can be proven (not just mistake or incompetence; doctored figures seem like sufficient evidence as that doesn't happen accidentally) the author should face jail time.
- MattGaiser 3y agoIt has been complained about loudly in politically involved circles (at least the ones in run in) that fraud is generally under pursued. In the UK, fraud is 40% of the crime and just 1% of police resources [0]. Wouldn’t surprise me if Canada is the same. [0] https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64539087faf4aa0012e132cb/Fraud_Strategy_2023.pdf https://assets.publishing.service.gov.uk/media/64539087faf4a...
- pinkmuffinere 3y agoThe quote that I think most people will be interested in: “ Curcumin doesn’t work well as a therapeutic agent for any disease. Though it is safe for human consumption in most forms and will show activity in essentially any in vitro assay you throw at it (via a process known as assay interference), no well-powered clinical trials have ever found it to be an effective medicine.” According to well run studies, Turmeric does ~~nothing~~ for your ailment.
- ganeshkrishnan 3y agoThere are lots of studies that does that. Here is one https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5664031/
- crackedbassoon 3y agoThat is an uncritical review, not a study.
- dataangel 3y agoIt's a peer reviewed review listing a bunch of studies that according to the OP shouldn't exist so I think it's pretty relevant here.
- ta988 3y agoYou probably want to read Nelson 2017 cited in this post link to understand how more complicated tnan that the situation is. https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.6b00975 https://doi.org/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.6b00975
- crackedbassoon 3y agoNot saying it’s irrelevant (though non critical reviews like this are not very valuable), but the parent wrote “here is one”, as in here is a study. I’m pointing out is not a study.
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- gmd63 3y agoI find it concerning that, proportional to the rigorous selectivity in academic admissions, the expulsion process for misconduct like this is lax or apparently in this case nonexistent. This guy was selected to be trained in biochemistry above so many people, all to culminate in what might be a net negative effect on society. That he's still giving talks and conducting research with funds instead of someone more deserving disappoints me.
- MattGaiser 3y agoThere are always those who doubt that a person is truly a fraud. Or those who are willing to take a contrarian chance. Even the former CEO of Enron can get investors to take his call asking for investment. Being synonymous with fraud and spending a decade in prison for fraud is no barrier. He is probably in the top 1% of being able to raise investment for a business. Andrew Wakefield, the guy who claimed vaccines cause autism, remains a common and presumably paid speaker in the anti vaccine circuit.
- pants2 3y agoThe author states that 2,000+ studies on curcumin are published annually, but basically dismisses the compound as ever potentially being effective by citing a single study. I think more evidence is needed by the author to make that assertion. The thousands of research scientists behind those studies aren't idiots nor are they all paid off by Big Curcumin. It's hard to believe they're not aware of the criticisms and just willfully wasting their time.
- ganeshkrishnan 3y agoAlso "Only some of these studies were about curcumin specifically, but most concerned similar natural products." so the retracted articles are NOT about curcumin specifically? and why where they retracted? because they were false or because they were plagiarized?
- ta988 3y agoIn the case of this author it was both, they made up and reused content.
- eviks 3y agoAre you aware of the paper mills that churn out way more than a mere 2k of junk, and do you consider those researchers wasting their time or responding to the incentives set by the Little Non-Curcumins within their profession?
- gmd63 3y ago> The thousands of research scientists behind those studies aren't idiots nor are they all paid off by Big Curcumin. I think more evidence is needed by the author to make that assertion.
- graemep 3y agoI assume by "single study" you mean this: https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.6b00975 https://pubs.acs.org/doi/10.1021/acs.jmedchem.6b00975 If you read that it explains that despite all that research there has not been a single double blind trial that has shown it works. It also explains the chemistry of the compound and why effects shown in vitro are unlikely to work in vivo.
- colordrops 3y agoEveryone in this thread is talking about curcumin in the bloodstream, but my doctor insists its benefit is in the gut, addressing issues with the microbiome.
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- ta988 3y agoThere is little evidence of that. But there is a ton of evidence that eating more fibers does help. And this should be favored before any random supplement of more often that not dubious quality.
- colordrops 3y agoDo you have any analysis of this? I'm finding plenty of studies, but don't know what "little evidence" means in the scentific world as I'm not scientist, so I defer to my doctor. His recommendation was to us the spice copiously in cooking. I'm a vegan and get tons of fiber, which he also recommended (both through food and supplementation) but thought I was mostly good on that front. He did have me take guar gum on the side.
- mips_r4300i 3y agoI was also told this, but my doctor said the biggest benefit most people can get immediately is to start avoiding foods that react negatively on a sensitivity panel. Or just do an elimination diet with a long period of gradual reintroduction. Did your doctor also have any other suggestions?
- colordrops 3y agoHe didn't mention sensitivity panels, but I've read they are controversial and many think that they are misleading. Regarding what my doctor told me, I was seeing him for gut issues, and he put me on Boswellia extract (just for one bottle worth) for inflammation, guar gum starting at 1/4 tsp then graduating up to 1 tsp, and eating a lot of red fruits and vegetables throughout the day, e.g. beets/beet greens, red cabbage, pomegranates, cranberries etc.
- skhameneh 3y ago> Curcumin doesn’t work well as a therapeutic agent for any disease. That's bullshit, curcumin is effective against staph infections.
- skhameneh 3y agoWas I downvoted for calling the the exert from the article bullshit, because I didn't link evidence, or because you disagree with my statement? I stand by what I said, I've used tumeric for some minor infections. Antibiotic ointments (that are petroleum based) do not penetrate the skin adequately and I find tumeric paste to be much more effective in some instances. There is a lot of evidence for the efficacy of curcumin. Aside from what evidence is valid or not, my own experiences confirm efficacy.