4 ms·

There are always niche alternatives to anything, here and there. But unless we're talking about a new technology or some other fundamental change in circumstanc

There are always niche alternatives to anything, here and there. But unless we're talking about a new technology or some other fundamental change in circumstances, they are alternatives rather than the primary choice for a reason. Cork has a little overlap with a few plastic use-cases, but only slightly. It requires far more effort to produce than a plastic equivalent, and is simply not suited to most use cases. I do look forward to some cork alternatives to plastic where it makes sense. But I hardly expect it to make any meaningful difference to overall plastic use.

toomuchtodo 3y ago
If you start outlawing plastics due to their harm, the alternative becomes the primary choice. I don’t think we need to argue plastic incurred harm, it should be obvious.
- morpheos137 3y ago
  If the harm of outlawing a useful product exceeds the harm done by that product then even greater harm is done through the prohibition. Plastics are ESSENTIAL for everything from medical devices, electrical insulation, to pipes. There are simply no alternatives. We are not going to replace PE or PVC jacketing for wires with cork.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    And yet, the EPA is working towards restricting the use of or potentially outlawing vinyl chloride, a key ingredient in PVC. Nothing is impossible, and essential might be relative, depending on use case. Of course, cork isn’t the solution to all plastic use cases, just a potential replacement in some use cases. Like phasing out combustion vehicles, you have to signal that you’re forcing the sunset of the material so alternatives are identified and supply chains can reconfigure accordingly. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2023/12/14/epa-begins-process-to-potentially-ban-vinyl-chloride-used-in-pvc/71923363007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2023/12/1...
    - morpheos137 3y ago
      IF the EPA bans vinyl chloride all that means is instead of manufacturing PVC pellets in the USA we will import them from some place else. The EPA banning the use of PVC is about as realistic as banning the use of cardboard or paper. It is bewildering to me how many people think you can just ban an essential material and magically come up with an equivalent substitute. That is not how the real world works. In the case of asbestos the harm was much greater and the substitutes much better and more readily available and the use range of the original material was much narrower. The blind, ignorant hate for "plastics" online just goes to show how people can be led to believe anything. For example polyethylene, used in milk jugs and water pipes is absolutely harmless. You could swallow a fist full of PE pellets per day and they would simply pass right through you unchanged. This is a scientific fact. If a PE container can hold concentrated sulfuric acid your stomach is going to do nothing to it. Yet for some reason drinking out of a plastic milk jug is bad because some random person online said so.
      - bobsmooth 3y ago
        >It is bewildering to me how many people think you can just ban an essential material and magically come up with an equivalent substitute. We did it for leaded gasoline.
        Nifty3929 3y ago
        Clearly the lead was not essential then, and there were viable alternatives.
  - rrr_oh_man 3y ago
    > We are not going to replace PE or PVC jacketing for wires with cork. What about hemp?
    - morpheos137 3y ago
      What about it? It is disconcerting how so many people on HN don't understand basic economics. If we want to replace "plastics" for some reason then we need to come up with a superior alternative not an inferior one. Since you raised the question, what about hemp makes it a realistic solution to insulating wire? Can it be thermoplastically extruded? Is it really so hard to see how growing hemp plants, harvesting the fiber, weaving the fiber into braided insulation, that is more porous and susceptible to compromise by moisture than any plastic is an inferior solution? It is really bizarre to me how people online have jumped in the plastic hate bandwagon with zero understanding of how industrial processes that make the modern world possible actually work. Why not replace the dirty rubber in tires with wooden wheels?
      - rrr_oh_man 3y ago
        Great that you have all the answers. Just one tip: It’s not the worst thing to assume good faith when somebody asks a follow up question. Especially here. You might even assume that the person asking might not know your pet peeve trigger subject too well. There’s even a chance they were genuinely curious to understand your point of view — until, through a rude rant-reply, they realised they were speaking to a tormented Twitter chatbot and dropped the subject instead.
  - MrVandemar 3y ago
    > If the harm of outlawing a useful product exceeds the harm done by that product then even greater harm is done through the prohibition. And yet: Funkopops. And yet: the biggest source of plastic pollution on the planet is apparently the Coca Cola corporation. Yeah, keep plastic for where it's essential, but banning or regulating plastic use is essential to the our, and the biosphere's, long term survival.
  - ggm 3y ago
    What percentage of plastic consumption is embodied in the examples and other non replaceable forms, and what percentage isn't. Your reasoning is incomplete in arguing because SOME uses are irreplaceable right now that no replacement is possible or helpful. Vinyl flooring exists because linoleum was superseded but it stands as an example of a niche where cork did function. I know why people wanted to stop using linoleum, it doesn't mean it doesn't "work"
- casualrandomcom 3y ago
  "I don’t think we need to argue plastic incurred harm, it should be obvious." ? I'd like a clear and obvious reference.
  - toomuchtodo 3y ago
    https://hn.algolia.com/?q=plastics https://hn.algolia.com/?q=plastics https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=plastics&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
    - casualrandomcom 3y ago
      Don't you see that 90% of these is just "There is plastic in the environment" It does not say "plastic harms this or that". The equality "plastic presence"=="plastic harm" is not obvious to me To me it is just like "man-made electromagnetic waves are everywhere, they are not natural, ergo this harms the environment"
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
      - TotempaaltJ 3y ago
        I googled "plastic harm", immediately hit this Wikipedia page (linked to relevant section): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_pollution#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_pollution#Effects It's fairly well sourced. Some examples of harm from plastics, mostly on the environment: > Degradation (changes in the ecosystem state) and modifications of marine systems are associated with loss of ecosystem services and values. > in 2019, production and incineration of plastic will contribute greenhouse gases in the equivalent of 850 million tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) to the atmosphere > For example, in Bangkok flood risk increases substantially because of plastic waste clogging the already overburdened sewer system. > Marine wildlife such as seabirds, whales, fish and turtles mistake plastic waste for prey; most then die of starvation as their stomachs become filled with plastic. They also suffer from lacerations, infections, reduced ability to swim, and internal injuries. > When analyzing the effect of polyethylene microbeads (origin: cosmetic exfoliants) on the aquatic macrophyte L. minor, no effect on photosynthetic pigments & productivity was found, but root growth and root cell viability decreased. But this one's about humans: > By affecting the thyroid hormone axis, BPA exposure can lead to hypothyroidism.

toomuchtodo 3y ago

If you start outlawing plastics due to their harm, the alternative becomes the primary choice. I don’t think we need to argue plastic incurred harm, it should be obvious.

morpheos137 3y ago
If the harm of outlawing a useful product exceeds the harm done by that product then even greater harm is done through the prohibition. Plastics are ESSENTIAL for everything from medical devices, electrical insulation, to pipes. There are simply no alternatives. We are not going to replace PE or PVC jacketing for wires with cork.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  And yet, the EPA is working towards restricting the use of or potentially outlawing vinyl chloride, a key ingredient in PVC. Nothing is impossible, and essential might be relative, depending on use case. Of course, cork isn’t the solution to all plastic use cases, just a potential replacement in some use cases. Like phasing out combustion vehicles, you have to signal that you’re forcing the sunset of the material so alternatives are identified and supply chains can reconfigure accordingly. https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2023/12/14/epa-begins-process-to-potentially-ban-vinyl-chloride-used-in-pvc/71923363007/ https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/investigations/2023/12/1...
  - morpheos137 3y ago
    IF the EPA bans vinyl chloride all that means is instead of manufacturing PVC pellets in the USA we will import them from some place else. The EPA banning the use of PVC is about as realistic as banning the use of cardboard or paper. It is bewildering to me how many people think you can just ban an essential material and magically come up with an equivalent substitute. That is not how the real world works. In the case of asbestos the harm was much greater and the substitutes much better and more readily available and the use range of the original material was much narrower. The blind, ignorant hate for "plastics" online just goes to show how people can be led to believe anything. For example polyethylene, used in milk jugs and water pipes is absolutely harmless. You could swallow a fist full of PE pellets per day and they would simply pass right through you unchanged. This is a scientific fact. If a PE container can hold concentrated sulfuric acid your stomach is going to do nothing to it. Yet for some reason drinking out of a plastic milk jug is bad because some random person online said so.
    - bobsmooth 3y ago
      >It is bewildering to me how many people think you can just ban an essential material and magically come up with an equivalent substitute. We did it for leaded gasoline.
      - Nifty3929 3y ago
        Clearly the lead was not essential then, and there were viable alternatives.
- rrr_oh_man 3y ago
  > We are not going to replace PE or PVC jacketing for wires with cork. What about hemp?
  - morpheos137 3y ago
    What about it? It is disconcerting how so many people on HN don't understand basic economics. If we want to replace "plastics" for some reason then we need to come up with a superior alternative not an inferior one. Since you raised the question, what about hemp makes it a realistic solution to insulating wire? Can it be thermoplastically extruded? Is it really so hard to see how growing hemp plants, harvesting the fiber, weaving the fiber into braided insulation, that is more porous and susceptible to compromise by moisture than any plastic is an inferior solution? It is really bizarre to me how people online have jumped in the plastic hate bandwagon with zero understanding of how industrial processes that make the modern world possible actually work. Why not replace the dirty rubber in tires with wooden wheels?
    - rrr_oh_man 3y ago
      Great that you have all the answers. Just one tip: It’s not the worst thing to assume good faith when somebody asks a follow up question. Especially here. You might even assume that the person asking might not know your pet peeve trigger subject too well. There’s even a chance they were genuinely curious to understand your point of view — until, through a rude rant-reply, they realised they were speaking to a tormented Twitter chatbot and dropped the subject instead.
- MrVandemar 3y ago
  > If the harm of outlawing a useful product exceeds the harm done by that product then even greater harm is done through the prohibition. And yet: Funkopops. And yet: the biggest source of plastic pollution on the planet is apparently the Coca Cola corporation. Yeah, keep plastic for where it's essential, but banning or regulating plastic use is essential to the our, and the biosphere's, long term survival.
- ggm 3y ago
  What percentage of plastic consumption is embodied in the examples and other non replaceable forms, and what percentage isn't. Your reasoning is incomplete in arguing because SOME uses are irreplaceable right now that no replacement is possible or helpful. Vinyl flooring exists because linoleum was superseded but it stands as an example of a niche where cork did function. I know why people wanted to stop using linoleum, it doesn't mean it doesn't "work"
casualrandomcom 3y ago
"I don’t think we need to argue plastic incurred harm, it should be obvious." ? I'd like a clear and obvious reference.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  https://hn.algolia.com/?q=plastics https://hn.algolia.com/?q=plastics https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&query=plastics&sort=byDate&type=story https://hn.algolia.com/?dateRange=all&page=0&prefix=false&qu...
  - casualrandomcom 3y ago
    Don't you see that 90% of these is just "There is plastic in the environment" It does not say "plastic harms this or that". The equality "plastic presence"=="plastic harm" is not obvious to me To me it is just like "man-made electromagnetic waves are everywhere, they are not natural, ergo this harms the environment"
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - TotempaaltJ 3y ago
      I googled "plastic harm", immediately hit this Wikipedia page (linked to relevant section): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_pollution#Effects https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plastic_pollution#Effects It's fairly well sourced. Some examples of harm from plastics, mostly on the environment: > Degradation (changes in the ecosystem state) and modifications of marine systems are associated with loss of ecosystem services and values. > in 2019, production and incineration of plastic will contribute greenhouse gases in the equivalent of 850 million tonnes of carbon dioxide (CO2) to the atmosphere > For example, in Bangkok flood risk increases substantially because of plastic waste clogging the already overburdened sewer system. > Marine wildlife such as seabirds, whales, fish and turtles mistake plastic waste for prey; most then die of starvation as their stomachs become filled with plastic. They also suffer from lacerations, infections, reduced ability to swim, and internal injuries. > When analyzing the effect of polyethylene microbeads (origin: cosmetic exfoliants) on the aquatic macrophyte L. minor, no effect on photosynthetic pigments & productivity was found, but root growth and root cell viability decreased. But this one's about humans: > By affecting the thyroid hormone axis, BPA exposure can lead to hypothyroidism.