11 ms·

Apple Vision Pro and ADHD

125 points by dansalvato 3y ago

aredox 3y ago
Interesting observations. Like drugs, different technologies may trigger different excessive neurological reactions. It would be interesting to map that space. Will the Vision Pro trigger derealisation in schizoid/borderline people?
cheschire 3y ago
14 days seems like a ridiculously short trial period for a first generation device if Apple were really serious about this platform
- threeseed 3y ago
  Apple's return policy is 14 days for all their products and is industry standard. Also I am not sure what the problem is that is unique to those with ADHD. The issues raised are the same for everyone.
  - cbsmith 3y ago
    > Also I am not sure what the problem is that is unique to those with ADHD. The issues raised are the same for everyone. The joy of ADHD is that issues that seem the same as everyone else's are often far more difficult/easy to manage.
  - chipweinberger 3y ago
    > industry standard Amazon is 30 days, and it has made 14 days look stingy this day in age.
  - hnlmorg 3y ago
    > Apple's return policy is 14 days for all their products and is industry standard A de facto standard in the US. Some other countries have stronger consumer laws in place that define statuary return policies.
- Kluggy 3y ago
  I think it's a pretty polarizing experience. Either you fall in love with it and go all in, or you don't and it's just not worth the squeeze. 14 days seems plenty of time.
- penjelly 3y ago
  just short enough that the VR/AR novelty hasnt worn off until its over
  - zmmmmm 3y ago
    that's the real problem with these devices ... it has to actually get boring before you can tell if it's got real value or not. And that takes a long time precisely because the novelty is so high and so interesting. But it will happen and if you don't have a use for the device after that you have blown a lot of money.
- barkingcat 3y ago
  If you need more than 14 days, it seems a purchase upfront isn't the best idea to begin with. What would be better is to either borrow or rent it from someone/some place that already has one. Making a purchase is very different from getting one to try. Beyond a 14 days return policy, you start getting abuse from people trying to exploit the exchange policy. As many people say, 14 days is kind of a standard. Many companies have even fewer days so read the fine print before you buy. If you don't like the return policy, don't buy it. If you absolutely have to have one on Day 1 but don't feel 14 days is sufficient, maybe evaluate why you need it on Day 1? Wait for some other people to have it in their hands, and the rentals/loans usually start a few weeks after launch.
- doytch 3y ago
  I still find it quite odd that the west (or at least the US) has decided that we're entitled to a trial period with things we purchase. It's an incredibly wasteful practice and one that isn't at all common in a lot of other places on the planet. I know people who've moved to Europe who were in for a rude awakening when they tried returning things to the local shop just 'cause.
  - wtetzner 3y ago
    > It's an incredibly wasteful practice How is it more wasteful than keeping something you're not going to use?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
    - ahar083 3y ago
      A lot of lower end items are sent to the trash when returned. (Not items like an iPhone, which would be sold as referb models). The wastefulness comes from the fact that the barrier to purchase is pretty low, given the ease of return, so one is more likely to buy an item which may end up in the trash in 14 days (30 for Amazon). If I absolutely couldn’t return a product (aside from defects), I’d not buy a lot of items in the first place. (I say this as someone who is guilty of plenty of “trials”). I’m actually travelling through Japan right now, where one can visit a Yobadashi or Bic Camera, these stores are great, because all their tech is out and able to be played with, without explicitly getting assistance from a staff member. It’s obviously not the same as bringing a camera etc into the field to test, but it goes a long way in deciding if something works from an ergonomic perspective, before purchasing it.
  - kranke155 3y ago
    Huh? There are laws about being able to return items in the EU as well.
  - iwontberude 3y ago
    What you’re saying doesn’t make sense. Returns are common around the world. Source: https://www.statista.com/chart/27584/how-common-are-online-returns-gcs/ https://www.statista.com/chart/27584/how-common-are-online-r...
guptaneil 3y ago
This is something I am very curious about too. I’m kind of hopeful the fatigue and limitations imposed by Vision Pro will make my overall computer usage more intentional, similar to how wearing an Apple Watch and tossing my phone in my backpack made my overall phone usage when I’m outside more intentional. The Apple Watch is a pain to use for anything productive, and I appreciate that. The biggest question will be if it’s too much of a pain that I don’t want to use it at all.
- spondylosaurus 3y ago
  Do you think the "benefits" (strange to say, but I totally get it) of fatigue and limitations will diminish over time as you get used to the new hardware? Or if the hardware/software itself gets better? I just wonder if the friction imposed by a new tool—which, in this case, is a net positive—will become less noticeable and therefore less of a benefit. Compared to something like a smartwatch, which has impassable constraints no matter how much you get used to it, or even an e-ink screen.
qwertox 3y ago
Won't it rather have the same effect a slow phone or laptop has, like driving you really mad at times? I think I might have that issue if everything is laggy, unless I'd like to sugarcoat a very expensive purchase of an otherwise "cool" device.
- Kluggy 3y ago
  It doesn't come across as laggy, but... smeary? if I move my head to the side, everything smears for a little bit before it snaps back into focus. It's a bit rough for me to move around in, but I'm pretty sensitive to motion.
  - joshstrange 3y ago
    Smeary is the perfect word to describe it. Whereas I would’ve described my Meta quest 2 as laggy.
  - zanecodes 3y ago
    That sounds like the phenomenon known as display persistence: https://developers.google.com/vr/discover/fundamentals#display_persistence https://developers.google.com/vr/discover/fundamentals#displ... It's typically avoided by displaying images for a very short period, blanking them between frames and letting the eye and brain fill in the intervening time.
- dansalvato 3y ago
  Things aren’t “slow” in the sense that they’re unresponsive. The UI actually feels great to use—it’s a lot of fun, it’s fluid, and it responds very well to my actions. It’s just that I’m not as fast navigating apps on the Apple Vision Pro compared to using a mouse or a touchscreen. Frustration only occurs when trying to perform a certain action and getting a different result, which doesn’t happen much for me (except in iPad apps with poor compatibility).
joshstrange 3y ago
I completely agree on the extra overhead for opening new windows, and this authors thoughts on the pass-through quality. For myself I don’t think I realized how much I just look around while I’m thinking or working on some thing else but the Apple Vision Pro makes that very obvious as things light up, expand, etc. I never used the iPad is anything more than a consumption device and as things stand right now I’m not sure if the apple Vision Pro is going to be more than that for me either. I wrote about this in my first impressions blog post [0], but what I really wanted was to use the Apple Vision Pro as a replacement for my computer monitors, it’s just not there yet. I look forward to future revisions and I’m also on a 13 day countdown to decide if I want to keep this or not. [0] https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/03/apple-vision-pro-first-impressions/ https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/03/apple-vision-pro-first-im...
- Swizec 3y ago
  > I never used the iPad is anything more than a consumption device Same until I got the keyboard. Most of my iPads collected dust in a corner because I don’t really do that much consumption. Then I got the Magic Keyboard and my iPad basically replaced my laptop. I use it for almost all my non-coding work. Even to give talks and workshops at conferences. The battery life is amazing, the form factor super convenient, and it fits on airplanes or in your lap perfectly. Nowadays my laptop mostly works as a desktop computer sitting in its dock hooked into a keyboard, monitor, and mouse. Useful only for very serious work.
  - joshstrange 3y ago
    That’s something I still need to test in the Apple Vision Pro, connecting a keyboard to it. I used it with my laptop, which lets you use your keyboard with other Apple Vision Pro apps while it’s connected, which was very nice, and I also broke out the magic trackpad to use with the Apple Vision Pro because scrolling got annoying after a while. The problem is what I want to do is write code and I want to do it using my IDE so doing that inside of the Apple Vision Pro isn’t really possible unless I’m connected to my MacBook Pro
  - jhrmnn 3y ago
zmmmmm 3y ago
I routinely use Quest 3 with Immersed to do "focused" work by switching to specific environments that I associate with that. I can also co-work in a room of 5 - 10 other people who are also doing that which generates a little bit of impetus to focus as well. I think if this becomes the only reason to keep the device, for sure explore some other options like Quest 3 and see if it's sufficient. It does a lot more things than a Vision Pro and costs so much less. It's pretty personal whether the resolution cuts it or you really need the quality of the Vision Pro or not, but it works for me.
- KronisLV 3y ago
  I got a Quest 2 mostly for entertainment, but using it for productivity reasons is basically a no go for me, due to the lenses (blurry near the edges and some light streaks for any off-center text, not sure what the correct name for that is) and overall resolution (can't even have my actual 4 monitors present without having to make them so big that each takes up like 90 degrees of my field of vision). I feel like I really should have waited for Quest 3, not have gotten a Quest 2 because it was cheaper. Then again, I quite like the concept of VR and if some of the software wasn't so buggy (currently I need to run GPU drivers from 2020 for my RX 580, since the newer ones cause driver crashes), I can definitely imagine myself spending more time in VR! Except for eye strain and basically staring into super bright screens close to my face. Once I eventually get there, just chilling in space, with a few floating windows and getting some work done will be a pretty zen experience. Just have to wait a while until the hardware becomes more affordable.
  - zmmmmm 3y ago
    Yes Quest 3 is a completely different ball game to Quest 2 as far as this goes. Quest 2 resolution and lenses were completely unusable for me and Quest 3 is usable. But there are people that will say Quest 3 is unusable so you have to really try it. One thing it convinces me is that the resolution in Vision Pro is completely unnecessary for me. I need about 20% more resolution and I am done, after that other things are more important.
- gentleman11 3y ago
ionwake 3y ago
Im sitting in England unable to test this. But I swear Im getting the vibe from preview videos that hand interactions with windows etc have what looks like a 100ms lag on them. Can anyone confirm if there is lag when moving objects around in this thing? Cos that would wear on any user fast. ( I hope it doesn't I'm really looking forward to this, Im just wondering if its as perfect interactionwise as iphones are )
- ianbutler 3y ago
  Not in my experience, it’s super smooth. There is clunkyness with actually selecting a screen when multiple things are layered however.
  - ionwake 3y ago
    yeah but smooth != fast. But thank you for replying! It sounds like you like it mate.
    - ianbutler 3y ago
      Fair, I’d say it’s fast as well and yes I definitely like it. I hope Meta takes note at how a good software experience can be, because while their hardware is good, they’ve been asleep at the wheel with software and Apple showed that in spades in so many areas of the Vision Pro (but not all of them)
crtified 3y ago
This is partly reminiscent of the oft-discussed broader lament (or advantage, if you prefer!) of the current state of the VR interface - the physical overheads, or baseload. Coming to terms with, not just the new advantages brought by VR, but also the new constraints, the new annoyances and workarounds - especially prevalent at the cutting edge of tech, as we all know.
dataangel 3y ago
Why every time a new technology comes out with crappy obvious limitations does somebody feel compelled to write a blog post trying to justify it as actually good? This is just somebody trying to talk themselves into keeping their $3,500 toy
- iwontberude 3y ago
  Funny because I was saying “Yes! Yes! Yes!” to myself as I was reading. This author totally gets me and what I want out of AVP and it’s the first time I am even seeing it written somewhere.
- hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
  Probably because we all want toys but need justifications so that wives don't get angry.
  - saintlunaire 3y ago
    Wives read HN and enjoy new technologies too, FYI.
    - hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
      Not all wives apparently. If I follow my heart my wife will be a computer widow.
- colechristensen 3y ago
  The attention economy means that every time there's an opportunity, plenty of people will create attention grabbing responses with the common set of hot takes. Same goes for comment sections and any time people get the opportunity to do anything with a possible attention reward. I've taken to being conscious of the kinds of obnoxious/unhelpful/nitpicking responses when commenting in threads to try to discourage low quality responses.
- dansalvato 3y ago
  Author here—you’re not wrong, I’ve been a gadget enthusiast my whole life, and I deliberately left in the tone that I’m trying to justify owning an Apple Vision Pro, despite its flaws. I was also serious that the flaws are part of the charm for me, because it really does harken back to the “gadget age” of the 2000s. It takes me back to being 15 years old, wearing a Fossil Wrist PDA, trying to be productive with Palm OS using a fingernail-sized stylus. I really loved that sort of thing, and it’s been really hard for me to recapture that feeling this past decade. AVP is a device that, so far, has brought me joy and makes me think about my relationship with technology. If not for the price tag, it would be a no-brainer for me to keep. But as I continue to mess around with the device, the price is constantly ringing in the back of my mind, making me want to justify it, even though I may not be able to in the end.
hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
About the ADHD part: I don't know whether I have ADHD but I do lose focus quickly once I figure out how to solve a problem, before doing any implementation -- after all the implementation, however long it could take, is boring and uninteresting comparing to figuring out how to implement. So what if I get myself a Raspberry Pi 8GB and jumps into VSCode and VSCode only? Is it possible to make a VSCode "terminal" that only shows VSCode? OK let's make it more interesting: it also has network connection and the ChatGPT plugin for VSCode installed, so that I don't have to leave for another desktop to "find" something. What do you think?
- colechristensen 3y ago
  On any Linux system you can have no window manager (or an extremely minimal one) and just start a single application on login. It's been a while since I've done that and most stuff has moved away from X11 now, but yes exactly what you want is possible. To log in and have nothing but a single application, no menus, no desktop, etc.
- mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
  I have the same problem, and sometimes I'll code with an ageing Thinkpad(just 8 gigs of ram on it and an i5 with pretty bad singe-core perf) on my couch, ssh into my desktop and run Emacs/vim that way. I still have a full environment on my Thinkpad, but the 13" screen means I don't always have my browser open(usually just the one terminal), and if I follow my impulse to open a hundred tabs of docs in a local browser, my system will slow down too much. Forces me to keep a clutter free setup to even get anything done! Definitely think your idea is worth trying for yourself.
  - nickjj 3y ago
    I think there is something about optimizing for comfort. I've had a standing desk for 8 or 9 years now and I stand probably 75% of the time. When I sit, my chair is not very comfortable but also standing isn't always ideal either. This is while also mixing in 2-3 walks or jogs through out the day. After working for ~8-9 hours in that environment and being up for 14-15 hours, sometimes when I'm in a vegetable state where I'm laying in bed watching a movie I feel highly motivated to work on something but I don't have a laptop and the thought of getting back up rarely wins. With that said, I'd say my most productive "programming thoughts" happen right as I wake up and am laying in bed. I often spend 15-20 minutes thinking about exactly how I'll solve something and then get to that during the day. This is for both work and personal projects.
austin-cheney 3y ago
I am not convinced. First let’s be clear that there is minor ADHD which is a world of focus issues and minor distractions, and then there is catastrophic ADHD which is like living through the movie Momento in a world where memories don’t stick. I live in a household with catastrophic ADHD. I really have no idea what minor ADHD is like, but the last thing catastrophic ADHD needs is a gaming experience. A gaming experience is not going to cure the brain damage that causes people to require a minimum of 11 hours of sleep per day or misplace everything they own, including clothes, shoes, and wrist watches.
- lawrenceyan 3y ago
  Have you tried meditation? I genuinely am asking.
  - austin-cheney 3y ago
    We have, but we didn’t try enough types of medication to find an ideal fit. I suspect the right medication would be helpful. The more extreme the ADHD the higher the concentration of medication is required to achieve normal functioning which means high side effects. To understand the complexity of brain medication requires an understanding of the problem. For ADHD the problem is both dopamine and low serotonin. Dopamine is complicated and moderating for it has second and third order consequences the ill cannot see. Solving for serotonin is simple and the results are crystal clear. So it seems many of the medications attempt to adjust for both with various degrees of success. When a person with ADHD attempts to self medicate with drugs, stimulants, or bad food choices they are solving for serotonin up take and it doesn’t work. Another problem with medications in high concentrations is body tolerance which eventually eliminates the value of the medication and medication can run out. Currently we are working through behavior modification of risk/reward. If you lose something you don’t have it anymore so perform a deep dive on that emotional consequence to think of solutions and planning to address that moving forward. This is working but it’s supremely and requires overcoming lots of adversity.
    - wkipling 3y ago
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
It's an interesting idea, but you can emulate this(lack of distractions) with some pretty simple configuration of your window manager, so it seems like a poor justification for buying a $3500 device in and of itself.
boomskats 3y ago
> This has an interesting effect. I feel less inclined to mindlessly open and use apps, because it has become a fundamentally mindful gesture to do so. This is a really important point, but I don't think it requires $3500. Switching to an android phone and a portable split keyboard for most (non-programming) deep work resulted in a huge uplift in focus for me, and I really think it's because it made context switching more of a mindful, intentional act. These days I get way more focused writing done on planes/trains/cafes on 4 inches of screen than I think I've ever done on my instant-context-switch-keyboard-shortcut-for-everything tiling wm laptop.
edyc5 3y ago
Working from home has been pretty difficult for me as a person with ADHD, everything is just so distracting that I actually went from 3 monitors to 2 monitors to now only just the laptop screen so that way I can force myself to focus. I can't imagine being productive with Vision Pro and it's "infinite" screens and infinite browser tabs. It would be productivity hell for me. Tho, I have been trying a few different techniques to get myself more focused such as deleting TikTok and forcing myself to keep my phone on Do Not Disturb., etc. I've even recently built an desktop app around the techniques described in this other HN Post here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38274782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38274782 and using some techniques in Cal Newport's book "Deep Work" which has significantly helped me stay focused and get into a flow state much easier. I'm going to be launching this app soon in the App Store in the coming weeks. Would love to share my app with fellow HN'ers and get some feedback. Email in my bio if any one wants to give it a try.
- ChildOfChaos 3y ago
  Interesting, for me working from home is a little easier because I don't have the distractions of the office. I get caught up in everyones conversation, so I end up being distracted every time someone else is doing something. I've never heard of anything like the concept mentioned in the linked article, what is your app? Is it going to be for MacOS? Have you found it useful?
luxuryballs 3y ago
I can only imagine that over time this mindful clumsiness will give way to me feeling super bored and tweaked when I took off the device after I’ve become accustomed to YouTube videos and apps filling an otherwise empty ambiance around whatever I’m doing in normal space.
outcoldman 3y ago
With VisionPro I feel again like MBP M1 just came out. You definitely a very cool technology in front of you, but at the same time, you also see how many things aren't ready, and you always need to figure out hoops and various workarounds to make it to work. But with the time M1/M2/M3 improved soo much. I am keeping my Vision Pro not for the experience that we got right now (well, not only) but also for the one that I hope to experience with various app releases and updates. WWDC 2024 is coming, and I am sure there is going to be a huge VisionOS update.
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  Why not wait until it is useful before purchasing it? I know plenty of people who bought the Apple Silicon Macs too early, and their productivity dropped because too many things didn't work.
  - outcoldman 3y ago
    It gives me joy to try things, so don't see why not.
gnicholas 3y ago
> Putting myself in an "environment" also seems to have the effect of eliminating distractions from the outside world. I'm not glancing around at the stuff in my office every time I pause to think. I found that reading glasses had a similar effect for me. It helped me focus on the book or paper I was looking at and made me less distracted by other people walking by. Of course, it's less useful at preventing computer-based distractions, since they're all at the same focal distance.
nunez 3y ago
> I'm currently typing this blog post in a floating window in the middle of snow-covered Yosemite. I am a floating body manifested into the transcendental Tim Cook matrix. I look into the sky and follow the soft clouds as they pass overhead. They slowly part, revealing Steve Jobs' smiling face watching over me from the heavens above. I am merely one more thing. god damn; this is the most dystopian shit i've read in a while. "real" outside isn't good enough to work in, so i'll pay $3500 to work in a fake outside in my own house and wear that headset while i'm in real outside to tailor this outside to my preferences. interpreted another way: "real" outside is nice, but everything costs more money than i want to spend, so i'll spend $3500 once (or $1500 to buy the 1G headset) to create infinite "outsides" that i don't have to spend more money on like, are we actually okay with this??? this might be me showing my age (late 30s) but i'm actually scared of this technology becoming mainstream and destroying whatever semblance of society we have left. exmaple: why should people go to bars when they can just strap on a vision pro and put themselves in a bar that's perfect for them while drinking their own supply in their own home? if that takes off, then anyone who actually likes going to real bars (me, for ex.) are basically forced into the virtual bars since real bars as a whole won't be economically viable anymore. extended out further, walkable cities won't be necessary since everyone will be interacting through these kinds of headsets in their home, self-driving cars will be the only kinds of cars that are legal to drive, and most businesses would have moved into the metaverse since that's where the money is i'm basically afraid of Ready Player One becoming real
- garbagewoman 3y ago
  I think the writer might have been exaggerating for comic effect. It’s a literary technique
  - nunez 3y ago
    i know, but some people are actually doing this with their AVPs (less Tim Apple smiling on them in approval for buying more Apple kit)
- wkat4242 3y ago
  Nah. People will still go to bars. We couldn't wait to be done with the COVID restrictions and I'm still making up for all the lost time, long nights where I roll onto the street at 6am when the last club closes lol. Also don't forget a motive is to meet people and hook up. That won't be as good virtually as in real life for a long time.
dougmwne 3y ago
Talking about the mindfulness and friction of opening apps, resizing windows and interacting with buttons is a terrible foreshadowing. The famed and fabled Apple UX magic seems to have possibly jumped the shark. I recall no such awkward friction when interacting with the Meta Quest menus. Each UI action requires zen-like eye focus? Someone should have vetoed that on the drawing board. Apple seems to have made some important advances in passthrough, hardware and hand tracking occlusion. It seems they are probably 3-5 years behind Meta on UX and ecosystem. Meta also appears to be more advanced when it comes to gesture tracking and currently your hands can serve as both pointers and clickers quite well.
- leetharris 3y ago
  I have both headsets and AVP is way more intuitive when you get used to it. I think you're reading too much into this author's penchant for exaggeration. The Quest 3 UX is still very bad in some places and it is very buggy still. So is the AVP. This is all still early days. The last thing I'll say is that the Q3 hand tracking is absolutely terrible compared to the AVP. It's not even close.
- jitl 3y ago
  I think a lot of the complaints around the eye tracking stuff is skill issue — it’s brand new device, people have very few hours of experience. I picked mine like 6 hours ago, and my first session I struggled with targeting, but I spent another couple hours with it pretty much just moving windows around and cleaning the house, and now it’s feeling much more precise. Practice.
jitl 3y ago
I cleaned the whole house today wearing my Apple Vision Pro. It’s a great dopamine delivery system; much easier way to have a YouTube video going while vacuuming than a phone propped up somewhere. Likewise in the laundry where there’s not enough space to put down a device. I’m not sure if it’s just the novelty halo effect that will dissipate, but it’s encouraging me to keep it past the 15 day return window. (I’m an ADHD person and happy to have a gadget that’s helped me Do Things I Usually Avoid)

125 points by dansalvato 3y ago

Interesting observations. Like drugs, different technologies may trigger different excessive neurological reactions. It would be interesting to map that space. Will the Vision Pro trigger derealisation in schizoid/borderline people?

cheschire 3y ago

14 days seems like a ridiculously short trial period for a first generation device if Apple were really serious about this platform

threeseed 3y ago
Apple's return policy is 14 days for all their products and is industry standard. Also I am not sure what the problem is that is unique to those with ADHD. The issues raised are the same for everyone.
- cbsmith 3y ago
  > Also I am not sure what the problem is that is unique to those with ADHD. The issues raised are the same for everyone. The joy of ADHD is that issues that seem the same as everyone else's are often far more difficult/easy to manage.
- chipweinberger 3y ago
  > industry standard Amazon is 30 days, and it has made 14 days look stingy this day in age.
- hnlmorg 3y ago
  > Apple's return policy is 14 days for all their products and is industry standard A de facto standard in the US. Some other countries have stronger consumer laws in place that define statuary return policies.
Kluggy 3y ago
I think it's a pretty polarizing experience. Either you fall in love with it and go all in, or you don't and it's just not worth the squeeze. 14 days seems plenty of time.
penjelly 3y ago
just short enough that the VR/AR novelty hasnt worn off until its over
- zmmmmm 3y ago
  that's the real problem with these devices ... it has to actually get boring before you can tell if it's got real value or not. And that takes a long time precisely because the novelty is so high and so interesting. But it will happen and if you don't have a use for the device after that you have blown a lot of money.
barkingcat 3y ago
If you need more than 14 days, it seems a purchase upfront isn't the best idea to begin with. What would be better is to either borrow or rent it from someone/some place that already has one. Making a purchase is very different from getting one to try. Beyond a 14 days return policy, you start getting abuse from people trying to exploit the exchange policy. As many people say, 14 days is kind of a standard. Many companies have even fewer days so read the fine print before you buy. If you don't like the return policy, don't buy it. If you absolutely have to have one on Day 1 but don't feel 14 days is sufficient, maybe evaluate why you need it on Day 1? Wait for some other people to have it in their hands, and the rentals/loans usually start a few weeks after launch.
doytch 3y ago
I still find it quite odd that the west (or at least the US) has decided that we're entitled to a trial period with things we purchase. It's an incredibly wasteful practice and one that isn't at all common in a lot of other places on the planet. I know people who've moved to Europe who were in for a rude awakening when they tried returning things to the local shop just 'cause.
- wtetzner 3y ago
  > It's an incredibly wasteful practice How is it more wasteful than keeping something you're not going to use?
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - ahar083 3y ago
    A lot of lower end items are sent to the trash when returned. (Not items like an iPhone, which would be sold as referb models). The wastefulness comes from the fact that the barrier to purchase is pretty low, given the ease of return, so one is more likely to buy an item which may end up in the trash in 14 days (30 for Amazon). If I absolutely couldn’t return a product (aside from defects), I’d not buy a lot of items in the first place. (I say this as someone who is guilty of plenty of “trials”). I’m actually travelling through Japan right now, where one can visit a Yobadashi or Bic Camera, these stores are great, because all their tech is out and able to be played with, without explicitly getting assistance from a staff member. It’s obviously not the same as bringing a camera etc into the field to test, but it goes a long way in deciding if something works from an ergonomic perspective, before purchasing it.
- kranke155 3y ago
  Huh? There are laws about being able to return items in the EU as well.
- iwontberude 3y ago
  What you’re saying doesn’t make sense. Returns are common around the world. Source: https://www.statista.com/chart/27584/how-common-are-online-returns-gcs/ https://www.statista.com/chart/27584/how-common-are-online-r...

guptaneil 3y ago

This is something I am very curious about too. I’m kind of hopeful the fatigue and limitations imposed by Vision Pro will make my overall computer usage more intentional, similar to how wearing an Apple Watch and tossing my phone in my backpack made my overall phone usage when I’m outside more intentional. The Apple Watch is a pain to use for anything productive, and I appreciate that. The biggest question will be if it’s too much of a pain that I don’t want to use it at all.

spondylosaurus 3y ago
Do you think the "benefits" (strange to say, but I totally get it) of fatigue and limitations will diminish over time as you get used to the new hardware? Or if the hardware/software itself gets better? I just wonder if the friction imposed by a new tool—which, in this case, is a net positive—will become less noticeable and therefore less of a benefit. Compared to something like a smartwatch, which has impassable constraints no matter how much you get used to it, or even an e-ink screen.

qwertox 3y ago

Won't it rather have the same effect a slow phone or laptop has, like driving you really mad at times? I think I might have that issue if everything is laggy, unless I'd like to sugarcoat a very expensive purchase of an otherwise "cool" device.

Kluggy 3y ago
It doesn't come across as laggy, but... smeary? if I move my head to the side, everything smears for a little bit before it snaps back into focus. It's a bit rough for me to move around in, but I'm pretty sensitive to motion.
- joshstrange 3y ago
  Smeary is the perfect word to describe it. Whereas I would’ve described my Meta quest 2 as laggy.
- zanecodes 3y ago
  That sounds like the phenomenon known as display persistence: https://developers.google.com/vr/discover/fundamentals#display_persistence https://developers.google.com/vr/discover/fundamentals#displ... It's typically avoided by displaying images for a very short period, blanking them between frames and letting the eye and brain fill in the intervening time.
dansalvato 3y ago
Things aren’t “slow” in the sense that they’re unresponsive. The UI actually feels great to use—it’s a lot of fun, it’s fluid, and it responds very well to my actions. It’s just that I’m not as fast navigating apps on the Apple Vision Pro compared to using a mouse or a touchscreen. Frustration only occurs when trying to perform a certain action and getting a different result, which doesn’t happen much for me (except in iPad apps with poor compatibility).

joshstrange 3y ago

I completely agree on the extra overhead for opening new windows, and this authors thoughts on the pass-through quality. For myself I don’t think I realized how much I just look around while I’m thinking or working on some thing else but the Apple Vision Pro makes that very obvious as things light up, expand, etc. I never used the iPad is anything more than a consumption device and as things stand right now I’m not sure if the apple Vision Pro is going to be more than that for me either. I wrote about this in my first impressions blog post [0], but what I really wanted was to use the Apple Vision Pro as a replacement for my computer monitors, it’s just not there yet. I look forward to future revisions and I’m also on a 13 day countdown to decide if I want to keep this or not. [0] https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/03/apple-vision-pro-first-impressions/ https://joshstrange.com/2024/02/03/apple-vision-pro-first-im...

Swizec 3y ago
> I never used the iPad is anything more than a consumption device Same until I got the keyboard. Most of my iPads collected dust in a corner because I don’t really do that much consumption. Then I got the Magic Keyboard and my iPad basically replaced my laptop. I use it for almost all my non-coding work. Even to give talks and workshops at conferences. The battery life is amazing, the form factor super convenient, and it fits on airplanes or in your lap perfectly. Nowadays my laptop mostly works as a desktop computer sitting in its dock hooked into a keyboard, monitor, and mouse. Useful only for very serious work.
- joshstrange 3y ago
  That’s something I still need to test in the Apple Vision Pro, connecting a keyboard to it. I used it with my laptop, which lets you use your keyboard with other Apple Vision Pro apps while it’s connected, which was very nice, and I also broke out the magic trackpad to use with the Apple Vision Pro because scrolling got annoying after a while. The problem is what I want to do is write code and I want to do it using my IDE so doing that inside of the Apple Vision Pro isn’t really possible unless I’m connected to my MacBook Pro
- jhrmnn 3y ago

zmmmmm 3y ago

I routinely use Quest 3 with Immersed to do "focused" work by switching to specific environments that I associate with that. I can also co-work in a room of 5 - 10 other people who are also doing that which generates a little bit of impetus to focus as well. I think if this becomes the only reason to keep the device, for sure explore some other options like Quest 3 and see if it's sufficient. It does a lot more things than a Vision Pro and costs so much less. It's pretty personal whether the resolution cuts it or you really need the quality of the Vision Pro or not, but it works for me.

KronisLV 3y ago
I got a Quest 2 mostly for entertainment, but using it for productivity reasons is basically a no go for me, due to the lenses (blurry near the edges and some light streaks for any off-center text, not sure what the correct name for that is) and overall resolution (can't even have my actual 4 monitors present without having to make them so big that each takes up like 90 degrees of my field of vision). I feel like I really should have waited for Quest 3, not have gotten a Quest 2 because it was cheaper. Then again, I quite like the concept of VR and if some of the software wasn't so buggy (currently I need to run GPU drivers from 2020 for my RX 580, since the newer ones cause driver crashes), I can definitely imagine myself spending more time in VR! Except for eye strain and basically staring into super bright screens close to my face. Once I eventually get there, just chilling in space, with a few floating windows and getting some work done will be a pretty zen experience. Just have to wait a while until the hardware becomes more affordable.
- zmmmmm 3y ago
  Yes Quest 3 is a completely different ball game to Quest 2 as far as this goes. Quest 2 resolution and lenses were completely unusable for me and Quest 3 is usable. But there are people that will say Quest 3 is unusable so you have to really try it. One thing it convinces me is that the resolution in Vision Pro is completely unnecessary for me. I need about 20% more resolution and I am done, after that other things are more important.
gentleman11 3y ago

ionwake 3y ago

Im sitting in England unable to test this. But I swear Im getting the vibe from preview videos that hand interactions with windows etc have what looks like a 100ms lag on them. Can anyone confirm if there is lag when moving objects around in this thing? Cos that would wear on any user fast. ( I hope it doesn't I'm really looking forward to this, Im just wondering if its as perfect interactionwise as iphones are )

ianbutler 3y ago
Not in my experience, it’s super smooth. There is clunkyness with actually selecting a screen when multiple things are layered however.
- ionwake 3y ago
  yeah but smooth != fast. But thank you for replying! It sounds like you like it mate.
  - ianbutler 3y ago
    Fair, I’d say it’s fast as well and yes I definitely like it. I hope Meta takes note at how a good software experience can be, because while their hardware is good, they’ve been asleep at the wheel with software and Apple showed that in spades in so many areas of the Vision Pro (but not all of them)

crtified 3y ago

This is partly reminiscent of the oft-discussed broader lament (or advantage, if you prefer!) of the current state of the VR interface - the physical overheads, or baseload. Coming to terms with, not just the new advantages brought by VR, but also the new constraints, the new annoyances and workarounds - especially prevalent at the cutting edge of tech, as we all know.

dataangel 3y ago

Why every time a new technology comes out with crappy obvious limitations does somebody feel compelled to write a blog post trying to justify it as actually good? This is just somebody trying to talk themselves into keeping their $3,500 toy

iwontberude 3y ago
Funny because I was saying “Yes! Yes! Yes!” to myself as I was reading. This author totally gets me and what I want out of AVP and it’s the first time I am even seeing it written somewhere.
hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
Probably because we all want toys but need justifications so that wives don't get angry.
- saintlunaire 3y ago
  Wives read HN and enjoy new technologies too, FYI.
  - hnthrowaway0328 3y ago
    Not all wives apparently. If I follow my heart my wife will be a computer widow.
colechristensen 3y ago
The attention economy means that every time there's an opportunity, plenty of people will create attention grabbing responses with the common set of hot takes. Same goes for comment sections and any time people get the opportunity to do anything with a possible attention reward. I've taken to being conscious of the kinds of obnoxious/unhelpful/nitpicking responses when commenting in threads to try to discourage low quality responses.
dansalvato 3y ago
Author here—you’re not wrong, I’ve been a gadget enthusiast my whole life, and I deliberately left in the tone that I’m trying to justify owning an Apple Vision Pro, despite its flaws. I was also serious that the flaws are part of the charm for me, because it really does harken back to the “gadget age” of the 2000s. It takes me back to being 15 years old, wearing a Fossil Wrist PDA, trying to be productive with Palm OS using a fingernail-sized stylus. I really loved that sort of thing, and it’s been really hard for me to recapture that feeling this past decade. AVP is a device that, so far, has brought me joy and makes me think about my relationship with technology. If not for the price tag, it would be a no-brainer for me to keep. But as I continue to mess around with the device, the price is constantly ringing in the back of my mind, making me want to justify it, even though I may not be able to in the end.

hnthrowaway0328 3y ago

About the ADHD part: I don't know whether I have ADHD but I do lose focus quickly once I figure out how to solve a problem, before doing any implementation -- after all the implementation, however long it could take, is boring and uninteresting comparing to figuring out how to implement. So what if I get myself a Raspberry Pi 8GB and jumps into VSCode and VSCode only? Is it possible to make a VSCode "terminal" that only shows VSCode? OK let's make it more interesting: it also has network connection and the ChatGPT plugin for VSCode installed, so that I don't have to leave for another desktop to "find" something. What do you think?

colechristensen 3y ago
On any Linux system you can have no window manager (or an extremely minimal one) and just start a single application on login. It's been a while since I've done that and most stuff has moved away from X11 now, but yes exactly what you want is possible. To log in and have nothing but a single application, no menus, no desktop, etc.
mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago
I have the same problem, and sometimes I'll code with an ageing Thinkpad(just 8 gigs of ram on it and an i5 with pretty bad singe-core perf) on my couch, ssh into my desktop and run Emacs/vim that way. I still have a full environment on my Thinkpad, but the 13" screen means I don't always have my browser open(usually just the one terminal), and if I follow my impulse to open a hundred tabs of docs in a local browser, my system will slow down too much. Forces me to keep a clutter free setup to even get anything done! Definitely think your idea is worth trying for yourself.
- nickjj 3y ago
  I think there is something about optimizing for comfort. I've had a standing desk for 8 or 9 years now and I stand probably 75% of the time. When I sit, my chair is not very comfortable but also standing isn't always ideal either. This is while also mixing in 2-3 walks or jogs through out the day. After working for ~8-9 hours in that environment and being up for 14-15 hours, sometimes when I'm in a vegetable state where I'm laying in bed watching a movie I feel highly motivated to work on something but I don't have a laptop and the thought of getting back up rarely wins. With that said, I'd say my most productive "programming thoughts" happen right as I wake up and am laying in bed. I often spend 15-20 minutes thinking about exactly how I'll solve something and then get to that during the day. This is for both work and personal projects.

austin-cheney 3y ago

I am not convinced. First let’s be clear that there is minor ADHD which is a world of focus issues and minor distractions, and then there is catastrophic ADHD which is like living through the movie Momento in a world where memories don’t stick. I live in a household with catastrophic ADHD. I really have no idea what minor ADHD is like, but the last thing catastrophic ADHD needs is a gaming experience. A gaming experience is not going to cure the brain damage that causes people to require a minimum of 11 hours of sleep per day or misplace everything they own, including clothes, shoes, and wrist watches.

lawrenceyan 3y ago
Have you tried meditation? I genuinely am asking.
- austin-cheney 3y ago
  We have, but we didn’t try enough types of medication to find an ideal fit. I suspect the right medication would be helpful. The more extreme the ADHD the higher the concentration of medication is required to achieve normal functioning which means high side effects. To understand the complexity of brain medication requires an understanding of the problem. For ADHD the problem is both dopamine and low serotonin. Dopamine is complicated and moderating for it has second and third order consequences the ill cannot see. Solving for serotonin is simple and the results are crystal clear. So it seems many of the medications attempt to adjust for both with various degrees of success. When a person with ADHD attempts to self medicate with drugs, stimulants, or bad food choices they are solving for serotonin up take and it doesn’t work. Another problem with medications in high concentrations is body tolerance which eventually eliminates the value of the medication and medication can run out. Currently we are working through behavior modification of risk/reward. If you lose something you don’t have it anymore so perform a deep dive on that emotional consequence to think of solutions and planning to address that moving forward. This is working but it’s supremely and requires overcoming lots of adversity.
  - wkipling 3y ago

mtlmtlmtlmtl 3y ago

It's an interesting idea, but you can emulate this(lack of distractions) with some pretty simple configuration of your window manager, so it seems like a poor justification for buying a $3500 device in and of itself.

boomskats 3y ago

> This has an interesting effect. I feel less inclined to mindlessly open and use apps, because it has become a fundamentally mindful gesture to do so. This is a really important point, but I don't think it requires $3500. Switching to an android phone and a portable split keyboard for most (non-programming) deep work resulted in a huge uplift in focus for me, and I really think it's because it made context switching more of a mindful, intentional act. These days I get way more focused writing done on planes/trains/cafes on 4 inches of screen than I think I've ever done on my instant-context-switch-keyboard-shortcut-for-everything tiling wm laptop.

edyc5 3y ago

Working from home has been pretty difficult for me as a person with ADHD, everything is just so distracting that I actually went from 3 monitors to 2 monitors to now only just the laptop screen so that way I can force myself to focus. I can't imagine being productive with Vision Pro and it's "infinite" screens and infinite browser tabs. It would be productivity hell for me. Tho, I have been trying a few different techniques to get myself more focused such as deleting TikTok and forcing myself to keep my phone on Do Not Disturb., etc. I've even recently built an desktop app around the techniques described in this other HN Post here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38274782 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=38274782 and using some techniques in Cal Newport's book "Deep Work" which has significantly helped me stay focused and get into a flow state much easier. I'm going to be launching this app soon in the App Store in the coming weeks. Would love to share my app with fellow HN'ers and get some feedback. Email in my bio if any one wants to give it a try.

ChildOfChaos 3y ago
Interesting, for me working from home is a little easier because I don't have the distractions of the office. I get caught up in everyones conversation, so I end up being distracted every time someone else is doing something. I've never heard of anything like the concept mentioned in the linked article, what is your app? Is it going to be for MacOS? Have you found it useful?

luxuryballs 3y ago

I can only imagine that over time this mindful clumsiness will give way to me feeling super bored and tweaked when I took off the device after I’ve become accustomed to YouTube videos and apps filling an otherwise empty ambiance around whatever I’m doing in normal space.

outcoldman 3y ago

With VisionPro I feel again like MBP M1 just came out. You definitely a very cool technology in front of you, but at the same time, you also see how many things aren't ready, and you always need to figure out hoops and various workarounds to make it to work. But with the time M1/M2/M3 improved soo much. I am keeping my Vision Pro not for the experience that we got right now (well, not only) but also for the one that I hope to experience with various app releases and updates. WWDC 2024 is coming, and I am sure there is going to be a huge VisionOS update.

lern_too_spel 3y ago
Why not wait until it is useful before purchasing it? I know plenty of people who bought the Apple Silicon Macs too early, and their productivity dropped because too many things didn't work.
- outcoldman 3y ago
  It gives me joy to try things, so don't see why not.

gnicholas 3y ago

> Putting myself in an "environment" also seems to have the effect of eliminating distractions from the outside world. I'm not glancing around at the stuff in my office every time I pause to think. I found that reading glasses had a similar effect for me. It helped me focus on the book or paper I was looking at and made me less distracted by other people walking by. Of course, it's less useful at preventing computer-based distractions, since they're all at the same focal distance.

nunez 3y ago

> I'm currently typing this blog post in a floating window in the middle of snow-covered Yosemite. I am a floating body manifested into the transcendental Tim Cook matrix. I look into the sky and follow the soft clouds as they pass overhead. They slowly part, revealing Steve Jobs' smiling face watching over me from the heavens above. I am merely one more thing. god damn; this is the most dystopian shit i've read in a while. "real" outside isn't good enough to work in, so i'll pay $3500 to work in a fake outside in my own house and wear that headset while i'm in real outside to tailor this outside to my preferences. interpreted another way: "real" outside is nice, but everything costs more money than i want to spend, so i'll spend $3500 once (or $1500 to buy the 1G headset) to create infinite "outsides" that i don't have to spend more money on like, are we actually okay with this??? this might be me showing my age (late 30s) but i'm actually scared of this technology becoming mainstream and destroying whatever semblance of society we have left. exmaple: why should people go to bars when they can just strap on a vision pro and put themselves in a bar that's perfect for them while drinking their own supply in their own home? if that takes off, then anyone who actually likes going to real bars (me, for ex.) are basically forced into the virtual bars since real bars as a whole won't be economically viable anymore. extended out further, walkable cities won't be necessary since everyone will be interacting through these kinds of headsets in their home, self-driving cars will be the only kinds of cars that are legal to drive, and most businesses would have moved into the metaverse since that's where the money is i'm basically afraid of Ready Player One becoming real

garbagewoman 3y ago
I think the writer might have been exaggerating for comic effect. It’s a literary technique
- nunez 3y ago
  i know, but some people are actually doing this with their AVPs (less Tim Apple smiling on them in approval for buying more Apple kit)
wkat4242 3y ago
Nah. People will still go to bars. We couldn't wait to be done with the COVID restrictions and I'm still making up for all the lost time, long nights where I roll onto the street at 6am when the last club closes lol. Also don't forget a motive is to meet people and hook up. That won't be as good virtually as in real life for a long time.

dougmwne 3y ago

Talking about the mindfulness and friction of opening apps, resizing windows and interacting with buttons is a terrible foreshadowing. The famed and fabled Apple UX magic seems to have possibly jumped the shark. I recall no such awkward friction when interacting with the Meta Quest menus. Each UI action requires zen-like eye focus? Someone should have vetoed that on the drawing board. Apple seems to have made some important advances in passthrough, hardware and hand tracking occlusion. It seems they are probably 3-5 years behind Meta on UX and ecosystem. Meta also appears to be more advanced when it comes to gesture tracking and currently your hands can serve as both pointers and clickers quite well.

leetharris 3y ago
I have both headsets and AVP is way more intuitive when you get used to it. I think you're reading too much into this author's penchant for exaggeration. The Quest 3 UX is still very bad in some places and it is very buggy still. So is the AVP. This is all still early days. The last thing I'll say is that the Q3 hand tracking is absolutely terrible compared to the AVP. It's not even close.
jitl 3y ago
I think a lot of the complaints around the eye tracking stuff is skill issue — it’s brand new device, people have very few hours of experience. I picked mine like 6 hours ago, and my first session I struggled with targeting, but I spent another couple hours with it pretty much just moving windows around and cleaning the house, and now it’s feeling much more precise. Practice.

jitl 3y ago

I cleaned the whole house today wearing my Apple Vision Pro. It’s a great dopamine delivery system; much easier way to have a YouTube video going while vacuuming than a phone propped up somewhere. Likewise in the laundry where there’s not enough space to put down a device. I’m not sure if it’s just the novelty halo effect that will dissipate, but it’s encouraging me to keep it past the 15 day return window. (I’m an ADHD person and happy to have a gadget that’s helped me Do Things I Usually Avoid)