8 ms·

I don’t understand the outrage. The plugin is installed by default and visible in the right tray so it’s basically an advertisement. That’s the only negative pa

I don’t understand the outrage. The plugin is installed by default and visible in the right tray so it’s basically an advertisement. That’s the only negative part and I understand the frustration with that. You can disable it like any other plugin though? Really easily? And it’s a paid service. Just don’t pay for it. Seems like rage bait that a lot of people are falling for. Of course, if it turns out it’s phoning home with training data by default then I will also change my tune, but it doesn’t seem to be doing that

gumby 3y ago
Some companies’ policies forbid them in the first place.
TeMPOraL 3y ago
> The plugin is installed by default and visible in the right tray so it’s basically an advertisement (...) a paid service A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want, in a paid product you paid for? That alone is a justifiable reason for the outrage. But the more important bit is that, if legal says "no", then "but it's inert" isn't an answer people are willing to risk their employment for. Also: > if it turns out it’s phoning home with training data by default then I will also change my tune, but it doesn’t seem to be doing that We live in the age where open source package managers and build tools come with built-in, opt-out invasive telemetry, and I'm talking bona fide OSS, not something by Microsoft. It's reasonable to assume that the plugin is, or at some point will be, phoning home, until proven otherwise.
- CoastalCoder 3y ago
  Yuck. Where can I find a list (even partial) of OSS tools with opt-out telemetry?
  - hunterhod 3y ago
    What's the gripe with telemetry? That data is used to improve your experience with the product. Otherwise, developers are flying blind.
    - CoastalCoder 3y ago
      > What's the gripe with telemetry? Reasonable question, but it's a big topic that deserves its own forum.
      - hunterhod 3y ago
        Agreed, perhaps I shouldn’t have stoked that fire.
    - drpossum 3y ago
      Why don't people let the police install cameras in their home!? It just cuts down on crime. If you aren't committing crimes you have nothing to worry about.
      - aniforprez 3y ago
        This is an incredibly bad read on what telemetry is and a terrible analogy. Total hyperbole and non sequitur. Most telemetry in the real world is literally just like Sentry and "oh there's a crash or error. Here's what the user may have done when it happened" or "this feature is not used as much while this one is very popular". Equating it to police spying on people and imprisoning would-be criminals or innocents is utter nonsense
      - hunterhod 3y ago
        Counterpoint: the owner of a brick-and-mortar retail business is able to observe the behavior of customers as they peruse their store.
        drpossum 3y ago
        Counter counter point: What I do on my computer is different than what I do in a public space
        hunterhod 3y ago
        Valid, agreed. Privacy might be assumed when using a computer whereas people in a public store understand that they’re in public.
- MBCook 3y ago
  > A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want, in a paid product you paid for While I know what you mean, it’s a very tiny and rather subtle icon.
  - ta988 3y ago
    which you can remove in two clicks
    - drpossum 3y ago
      No, not the side bar. It's permanent and visible every time you go to the plugins in settings with "Freemium No License"
      - MBCook 3y ago
        “If you open settings and go to the plugin section it’s always there” is very different from “it’s always on your screen”. The plugin for Ktor is always there too. I don’t use that. But I’m not raising a fuss.
      - therealdrag0 3y ago
        You gotta be kidding me.
- kkarpkkarp 3y ago
  > A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want, in a paid product you paid for? Yes, this bad, but outrage described in the article is not because of this. All unhappy customers are complaining the plugin sends the data and they cannot uninstall it. It is opposite: they need to enable it, accept terms and start paying for the service and only then they concerns might be correct. I am not even JetBrains user but this is just a FUD for me
- jotaen 3y ago
  > A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want Are you referring to the spiral-like “AI Assistant” icon in the right tray? Because that you can easily hide. (Right click → “Hide” → gone.)
- maccard 3y ago
  I think this example is a great example of a benefit of telemetry. If your telemetry tells you that a _very large number of people_ are using it, and you have complaints from a number of people who have _never used it_ (or disabled telemetry), that tells you there's value in what you're doing. Some people will never be happy, e.g. > We live in the age where open source package managers and build tools come with built-in, opt-out invasive telemetry, and I'm talking bona fide OSS, not something by Microsoft. It's reasonable to assume that the plugin is, or at some point will be, phoning home, until proven otherwise. That's a false equivalence to OP's point - there's a _stark_ different between telemetry and phoning home with training data.
  - TeMPOraL 3y ago
    > If your telemetry tells you that a _very large number of people_ are using it, and you have complaints from a number of people who have _never used it_ (or disabled telemetry), that tells you there's value in what you're doing. This is how you lose thousand seats enterprise licensing deals without even realizing it. > That's a false equivalence to OP's point - there's a _stark_ different between telemetry and phoning home with training data. Yeah, arguably the former is worse. In the latter case, the data is actually relevant to the product and there's a chance of the user directly benefiting from it.
- 9dev 3y ago
  > A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want, in a paid product you paid for? That alone is a justifiable reason for the outrage. Oh, you mean like up- and cross-selling CTAs in, well, virtually any SaaS product under the sun? If that was a reason for outrage, we’d spend the work week screaming. Or is it that you just want to be enraged because an LLM is involved here?
  - tikhonj 3y ago
    Maybe we should have a higher standard for quality developer tools than enterprise shovelware?
  - infinitezest 3y ago
    Are you arguing that this kind of advertising is a good or neutral thingm. Or that life just kind of sucks and we need to get used to it? I'd rather push for better software and advertising practices, personally...
    - therealdrag0 3y ago
      Seems neutral or good to me. Without advertising users don’t know a feature exists they want.
    - 9dev 3y ago
      Neither, really. I hate ads as much as the next guy, but a) people seem to have no big problems with upselling in the myriad of other subscription services they use (at least I can’t remember regular ”outrage“), and b) a few subtle buttons in the UI that offer to buy an extension are hardly as atrocious as some people here act like. Life does kinda suck and we do need to get used to it, I guess. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for a better world, but until we don’t have a working alternative to advertising, I’d rather have models like JetBrains than Adobe…
- mvdtnz 3y ago
  > A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want, in a paid product you paid for? That alone is a justifiable reason for the outrage. I get that it feels icky but if you're going to get this outraged about every company that includes an upsell in a paid product you're going to die young. It's hard to think of a paid product without some kind of upsell. My work MacBook Pro nags me to sign up to Apple Music. My home PC wants me to upgrade my OneDrive account. Google Photos thinks I should buy more storage. The Economist's paid podcast feed wants me to take a subscription to the magazine.
  - mentalpiracy 3y ago
    this tacit acceptance of aggressive advertising is exactly why it keeps showing up everywhere.
    - therealdrag0 3y ago
      Hard to agree this is considered aggressive. It’s all the rage and tons of people are already paying for CoPilot plugin, only makes sense for IDEA to capture their share of the market but letting users know the feature exists. Other than that it’s not in the way at all.
    - mvdtnz 3y ago
      There's nothing I can do about it, so I can either accept it or be angry all the time.
      - TeMPOraL 3y ago
        > There's nothing I can do about it, so I can either accept it or be angry all the time. This here is exactly why telemetry is worth little with general users, and why the whole tech market is supplier-driven: over the past decades, most users have learned to expect software to be broken, devices to suck (except for the vacuum cleaners). They've learned to live with it, only occasionally making futile requests for help to their tech-savvy friends or family members (the well-known "can you fix my computer? it's slow because it got viruses" thing). Telemetry is not observing the frustration, but the coping, so there's very little signal related to quality and usefulness in it.
bob_theslob646 3y ago
When people say that they don't understand something, it's as this. They don't read other comments below or above them. Do you want a course in psychology or about human behavior? Please read other people's views and then you'll understand why they may be outraged. If after you don't understand, I don't know what to tell you. You simply don't know how to understand understanding. Spend some time reflecting on that.

gumby 3y ago

Some companies’ policies forbid them in the first place.

TeMPOraL 3y ago

> The plugin is installed by default and visible in the right tray so it’s basically an advertisement (...) a paid service A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want, in a paid product you paid for? That alone is a justifiable reason for the outrage. But the more important bit is that, if legal says "no", then "but it's inert" isn't an answer people are willing to risk their employment for. Also: > if it turns out it’s phoning home with training data by default then I will also change my tune, but it doesn’t seem to be doing that We live in the age where open source package managers and build tools come with built-in, opt-out invasive telemetry, and I'm talking bona fide OSS, not something by Microsoft. It's reasonable to assume that the plugin is, or at some point will be, phoning home, until proven otherwise.

CoastalCoder 3y ago
Yuck. Where can I find a list (even partial) of OSS tools with opt-out telemetry?
- hunterhod 3y ago
  What's the gripe with telemetry? That data is used to improve your experience with the product. Otherwise, developers are flying blind.
  - CoastalCoder 3y ago
    > What's the gripe with telemetry? Reasonable question, but it's a big topic that deserves its own forum.
    - hunterhod 3y ago
      Agreed, perhaps I shouldn’t have stoked that fire.
  - drpossum 3y ago
    Why don't people let the police install cameras in their home!? It just cuts down on crime. If you aren't committing crimes you have nothing to worry about.
    - aniforprez 3y ago
      This is an incredibly bad read on what telemetry is and a terrible analogy. Total hyperbole and non sequitur. Most telemetry in the real world is literally just like Sentry and "oh there's a crash or error. Here's what the user may have done when it happened" or "this feature is not used as much while this one is very popular". Equating it to police spying on people and imprisoning would-be criminals or innocents is utter nonsense
    - hunterhod 3y ago
      Counterpoint: the owner of a brick-and-mortar retail business is able to observe the behavior of customers as they peruse their store.
      - drpossum 3y ago
        Counter counter point: What I do on my computer is different than what I do in a public space
        hunterhod 3y ago
        Valid, agreed. Privacy might be assumed when using a computer whereas people in a public store understand that they’re in public.
MBCook 3y ago
> A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want, in a paid product you paid for While I know what you mean, it’s a very tiny and rather subtle icon.
- ta988 3y ago
  which you can remove in two clicks
  - drpossum 3y ago
    No, not the side bar. It's permanent and visible every time you go to the plugins in settings with "Freemium No License"
    - MBCook 3y ago
      “If you open settings and go to the plugin section it’s always there” is very different from “it’s always on your screen”. The plugin for Ktor is always there too. I don’t use that. But I’m not raising a fuss.
    - therealdrag0 3y ago
      You gotta be kidding me.
kkarpkkarp 3y ago
> A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want, in a paid product you paid for? Yes, this bad, but outrage described in the article is not because of this. All unhappy customers are complaining the plugin sends the data and they cannot uninstall it. It is opposite: they need to enable it, accept terms and start paying for the service and only then they concerns might be correct. I am not even JetBrains user but this is just a FUD for me
jotaen 3y ago
> A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want Are you referring to the spiral-like “AI Assistant” icon in the right tray? Because that you can easily hide. (Right click → “Hide” → gone.)
maccard 3y ago
I think this example is a great example of a benefit of telemetry. If your telemetry tells you that a _very large number of people_ are using it, and you have complaints from a number of people who have _never used it_ (or disabled telemetry), that tells you there's value in what you're doing. Some people will never be happy, e.g. > We live in the age where open source package managers and build tools come with built-in, opt-out invasive telemetry, and I'm talking bona fide OSS, not something by Microsoft. It's reasonable to assume that the plugin is, or at some point will be, phoning home, until proven otherwise. That's a false equivalence to OP's point - there's a _stark_ different between telemetry and phoning home with training data.
- TeMPOraL 3y ago
  > If your telemetry tells you that a _very large number of people_ are using it, and you have complaints from a number of people who have _never used it_ (or disabled telemetry), that tells you there's value in what you're doing. This is how you lose thousand seats enterprise licensing deals without even realizing it. > That's a false equivalence to OP's point - there's a _stark_ different between telemetry and phoning home with training data. Yeah, arguably the former is worse. In the latter case, the data is actually relevant to the product and there's a chance of the user directly benefiting from it.
9dev 3y ago
> A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want, in a paid product you paid for? That alone is a justifiable reason for the outrage. Oh, you mean like up- and cross-selling CTAs in, well, virtually any SaaS product under the sun? If that was a reason for outrage, we’d spend the work week screaming. Or is it that you just want to be enraged because an LLM is involved here?
- tikhonj 3y ago
  Maybe we should have a higher standard for quality developer tools than enterprise shovelware?
- infinitezest 3y ago
  Are you arguing that this kind of advertising is a good or neutral thingm. Or that life just kind of sucks and we need to get used to it? I'd rather push for better software and advertising practices, personally...
  - therealdrag0 3y ago
    Seems neutral or good to me. Without advertising users don’t know a feature exists they want.
  - 9dev 3y ago
    Neither, really. I hate ads as much as the next guy, but a) people seem to have no big problems with upselling in the myriad of other subscription services they use (at least I can’t remember regular ”outrage“), and b) a few subtle buttons in the UI that offer to buy an extension are hardly as atrocious as some people here act like. Life does kinda suck and we do need to get used to it, I guess. That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t strive for a better world, but until we don’t have a working alternative to advertising, I’d rather have models like JetBrains than Adobe…
mvdtnz 3y ago
> A persistently visible ad for a paid service you don't want, in a paid product you paid for? That alone is a justifiable reason for the outrage. I get that it feels icky but if you're going to get this outraged about every company that includes an upsell in a paid product you're going to die young. It's hard to think of a paid product without some kind of upsell. My work MacBook Pro nags me to sign up to Apple Music. My home PC wants me to upgrade my OneDrive account. Google Photos thinks I should buy more storage. The Economist's paid podcast feed wants me to take a subscription to the magazine.
- mentalpiracy 3y ago
  this tacit acceptance of aggressive advertising is exactly why it keeps showing up everywhere.
  - therealdrag0 3y ago
    Hard to agree this is considered aggressive. It’s all the rage and tons of people are already paying for CoPilot plugin, only makes sense for IDEA to capture their share of the market but letting users know the feature exists. Other than that it’s not in the way at all.
  - mvdtnz 3y ago
    There's nothing I can do about it, so I can either accept it or be angry all the time.
    - TeMPOraL 3y ago
      > There's nothing I can do about it, so I can either accept it or be angry all the time. This here is exactly why telemetry is worth little with general users, and why the whole tech market is supplier-driven: over the past decades, most users have learned to expect software to be broken, devices to suck (except for the vacuum cleaners). They've learned to live with it, only occasionally making futile requests for help to their tech-savvy friends or family members (the well-known "can you fix my computer? it's slow because it got viruses" thing). Telemetry is not observing the frustration, but the coping, so there's very little signal related to quality and usefulness in it.

bob_theslob646 3y ago

When people say that they don't understand something, it's as this. They don't read other comments below or above them. Do you want a course in psychology or about human behavior? Please read other people's views and then you'll understand why they may be outraged. If after you don't understand, I don't know what to tell you. You simply don't know how to understand understanding. Spend some time reflecting on that.