4 ms·

I really really really would think that Bitcoin fills this exact need. There's a lot wrong with the cryptocurrency world and with Bitcoin specifically. So much

by berkes 3y ago

I really really really would think that Bitcoin fills this exact need. There's a lot wrong with the cryptocurrency world and with Bitcoin specifically. So much wrong, that I'm afraid we closed the one way out of government and corporate-controlled "digital money" and all the risks that comes with. But maybe it never was a good "way out" in the first place: maybe there never was a way out at all. I keep hoping the grifters and scammers and marketeers move on to the next hypetrain (metaverse, ai) allowing the bitcoin or other cryptocurrencies to be salvaged and become the way out again. But that hope is diminishing.

unicornmama 3y ago
This is preposterous. Bitcoin is more traceable, more transparent and more censorship prone than every form of currency conveyance we know of including cash, diamonds, physical gold, etc… The fact that’s 2024 and some people still believe Bitcoin enables privacy just goes to show how crypto enthusiasts are candy brained fanatics.
- ajmurmann 3y ago
  To add to this, I also anecdotally know many more people who lost Bitcoin due to bad key management or keeping their Bitcoin in a platform that failed instead of cold storage. I don't personally know a single person whose money disappeared from their bank account for no reason.
  - tock 3y ago
    Crypto is mostly useful in the absence of good financial infrastructure in your country. Otherwise the risk premium makes no sense.
  - berkes 3y ago
    I too know far more people who lost Bitcoin due to mistakes, or negligence or such. But I also know quite a lot of people who lost a lot of money in the 2018 banking crisis. So I highly doubt your really don't personally know a single person who lost money this way.
    - pasttense01 3y ago
      How did people lose money in the 2018 banking crisis? My understanding is that bank deposits were fully insured in that crisis--whether or not they exceeded FDIC insurance limits.
      - berkes 3y ago
        > FDIC insurance limits Not everyone lives in the US. The US is not the world, but the 2018 crisis was worldwide. Here's two (edit: three) of several use-cases in which friends and people I know, in a western European country, lost money. A couple who signed the contracts of a house suddenly couldn't access their savings on (DSB, some local bank), a bank that went bankrupt. Eventhough they eventually got their money, after nearly a year, they lost the contract, had to pay big fines (some of which they got back after long legal battles). A friend with a lot of money, way over €100k, in a savings many from the sale of a company meant for his early pension, lost everything above that guaranteed €100k when his bank (IceSave) failed. He still has a royal pension (I'd call him rich). But he no longer had access to his dream of a yacht and villa in the meditereanean. While you may think "I don't care of some rich guy lost money", and while I can understand that thought, he did lose money. He lost more than I'll probably end up with in my pension. A couple in my parent's street had to sell their house because of their bad mortgage. It probably was bad to begin with, but suddenly that mattered. They had to sell that house for far less than they would've gotten without the enforcement - I know the guy who scooped it up in the auction and know how much higher he sold it a year later without any significant improvements made. What's more, the couple then had to move (costly) and rent (under pressure, so not much room to say "no" to too expensive or bad places) for way too much. My dad lost nearly his entire "investment mortgage", which was for his pension too. He is doing fine and it was a mortgage on only a small part of the house, but the portfolio went almost worthless within months. And so on. There are quite some stories of people who lost a lot. Sure, that's different from "I lost my bank-card, now my whole account is gone", or "I forgot my PIN and cannot ever access my pension ever again". But to say that no-one ever lost any money in the "traditional banking system" due to neglect or poor management is simply not true. It's simply on a different scale - but the outcome is on a very personal scale nontheless.
    - 3y ago
- asystole 3y ago
  Lightning has pretty good sender privacy.
- thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
  The Canada trucker protests are proof that the government can easily stop transfers even if they can't size the actual asset (which I would like to point out, they technically cannot legally do that with bank account either). The whole thing is just postulating about a hypothetical then getting mad when it's completely wrong. The "You cant stop our unstoppable money" to "it's disgusting that you have the power to stop our unstoppable money" pipeline
- berkes 3y ago
  Why is this "preposterous"? I never mentioned privacy, and certainly never claimed bitcoin provides it. Also, bitcoin never claimed to enable privacy (contrary to monero and zcash). All it ever claimed was to be pseudonymous. It has been crystal clear to anyone in the field that "if people can link your addresses to your person, they know all your transactions". In fact, this has often been presented as a feature (though I personally don't really think it is a good one) in which e.g. all payments to and by a politician or NGO can be transparantly tracked by the public.
  - unicornmama 3y ago
    Nonsense. Satoshi’s Bitcoin white paper has a section on Privacy.
    - berkes 3y ago
      Almost a third of that chapter is explaining the shortcomings and caveats of the system. > Some linking is still unavoidable with multi-input transactions, which necessarily reveal that their inputs were owned by the same owner. The risk is that if the owner of a key is revealed, linking could reveal other transactions that belonged to the same owner.
- PrimeMcFly 3y ago
  Bitcoin maybe not crypto in general. Monero for example is entirely private.
asystole 3y ago
Bitcoin is getting better all the time. There are more people focusing purely on payments in the bitcoin space than you think. The lightning network is halfway usable now, and federated mint type systems (like cashu[1]) are very promising. [1]: https://docs.cashu.space https://docs.cashu.space
- berkes 3y ago
  Bitcoin is still "improving", as tech. I know. But the community at large, is still crap. Rugpulls, pyramid schemes, bad management, misleading marketing and so on, are more common than not. It's easier to get scammed or grifted than to find a good, solid provider of a service. That's even more true for the cryptocurrency world at large, but even for the "niche" of bitcoin(maximalists) this goes.
  - asystole 3y ago
    The "crypto" world is 99% scams and 1% misguided nonsense, I agree. Wrt bitcoin, there are a lot of extremely talented, honest and trustworthy people working on both the technical side and providing services. Look at the projects and people sponsored by Opensats [1] for some good examples. I know many people will reflexively disagree with the notion that the bitcoin world isn't entirely made up of bros and scammers. [1]: https://opensats.org/projects https://opensats.org/projects
reactordev 3y ago
But if the cray government(s) wanted to, they could prevent you from turning that BTC into fiat and vice versa.
- k__ 3y ago
  That's only an issue as long as you need fiat.
- travoc 3y ago
  The same way they prevent people from turning cash into drugs? How’s that working?

by berkes 3y ago

unicornmama 3y ago

This is preposterous. Bitcoin is more traceable, more transparent and more censorship prone than every form of currency conveyance we know of including cash, diamonds, physical gold, etc… The fact that’s 2024 and some people still believe Bitcoin enables privacy just goes to show how crypto enthusiasts are candy brained fanatics.

ajmurmann 3y ago
To add to this, I also anecdotally know many more people who lost Bitcoin due to bad key management or keeping their Bitcoin in a platform that failed instead of cold storage. I don't personally know a single person whose money disappeared from their bank account for no reason.
- tock 3y ago
  Crypto is mostly useful in the absence of good financial infrastructure in your country. Otherwise the risk premium makes no sense.
- berkes 3y ago
  I too know far more people who lost Bitcoin due to mistakes, or negligence or such. But I also know quite a lot of people who lost a lot of money in the 2018 banking crisis. So I highly doubt your really don't personally know a single person who lost money this way.
  - pasttense01 3y ago
    How did people lose money in the 2018 banking crisis? My understanding is that bank deposits were fully insured in that crisis--whether or not they exceeded FDIC insurance limits.
    - berkes 3y ago
      > FDIC insurance limits Not everyone lives in the US. The US is not the world, but the 2018 crisis was worldwide. Here's two (edit: three) of several use-cases in which friends and people I know, in a western European country, lost money. A couple who signed the contracts of a house suddenly couldn't access their savings on (DSB, some local bank), a bank that went bankrupt. Eventhough they eventually got their money, after nearly a year, they lost the contract, had to pay big fines (some of which they got back after long legal battles). A friend with a lot of money, way over €100k, in a savings many from the sale of a company meant for his early pension, lost everything above that guaranteed €100k when his bank (IceSave) failed. He still has a royal pension (I'd call him rich). But he no longer had access to his dream of a yacht and villa in the meditereanean. While you may think "I don't care of some rich guy lost money", and while I can understand that thought, he did lose money. He lost more than I'll probably end up with in my pension. A couple in my parent's street had to sell their house because of their bad mortgage. It probably was bad to begin with, but suddenly that mattered. They had to sell that house for far less than they would've gotten without the enforcement - I know the guy who scooped it up in the auction and know how much higher he sold it a year later without any significant improvements made. What's more, the couple then had to move (costly) and rent (under pressure, so not much room to say "no" to too expensive or bad places) for way too much. My dad lost nearly his entire "investment mortgage", which was for his pension too. He is doing fine and it was a mortgage on only a small part of the house, but the portfolio went almost worthless within months. And so on. There are quite some stories of people who lost a lot. Sure, that's different from "I lost my bank-card, now my whole account is gone", or "I forgot my PIN and cannot ever access my pension ever again". But to say that no-one ever lost any money in the "traditional banking system" due to neglect or poor management is simply not true. It's simply on a different scale - but the outcome is on a very personal scale nontheless.
  - 3y ago
asystole 3y ago
Lightning has pretty good sender privacy.
thisgoesnowhere 3y ago
The Canada trucker protests are proof that the government can easily stop transfers even if they can't size the actual asset (which I would like to point out, they technically cannot legally do that with bank account either). The whole thing is just postulating about a hypothetical then getting mad when it's completely wrong. The "You cant stop our unstoppable money" to "it's disgusting that you have the power to stop our unstoppable money" pipeline
berkes 3y ago
Why is this "preposterous"? I never mentioned privacy, and certainly never claimed bitcoin provides it. Also, bitcoin never claimed to enable privacy (contrary to monero and zcash). All it ever claimed was to be pseudonymous. It has been crystal clear to anyone in the field that "if people can link your addresses to your person, they know all your transactions". In fact, this has often been presented as a feature (though I personally don't really think it is a good one) in which e.g. all payments to and by a politician or NGO can be transparantly tracked by the public.
- unicornmama 3y ago
  Nonsense. Satoshi’s Bitcoin white paper has a section on Privacy.
  - berkes 3y ago
    Almost a third of that chapter is explaining the shortcomings and caveats of the system. > Some linking is still unavoidable with multi-input transactions, which necessarily reveal that their inputs were owned by the same owner. The risk is that if the owner of a key is revealed, linking could reveal other transactions that belonged to the same owner.
PrimeMcFly 3y ago
Bitcoin maybe not crypto in general. Monero for example is entirely private.

asystole 3y ago

Bitcoin is getting better all the time. There are more people focusing purely on payments in the bitcoin space than you think. The lightning network is halfway usable now, and federated mint type systems (like cashu[1]) are very promising. [1]: https://docs.cashu.space https://docs.cashu.space

berkes 3y ago
Bitcoin is still "improving", as tech. I know. But the community at large, is still crap. Rugpulls, pyramid schemes, bad management, misleading marketing and so on, are more common than not. It's easier to get scammed or grifted than to find a good, solid provider of a service. That's even more true for the cryptocurrency world at large, but even for the "niche" of bitcoin(maximalists) this goes.
- asystole 3y ago
  The "crypto" world is 99% scams and 1% misguided nonsense, I agree. Wrt bitcoin, there are a lot of extremely talented, honest and trustworthy people working on both the technical side and providing services. Look at the projects and people sponsored by Opensats [1] for some good examples. I know many people will reflexively disagree with the notion that the bitcoin world isn't entirely made up of bros and scammers. [1]: https://opensats.org/projects https://opensats.org/projects

reactordev 3y ago

But if the cray government(s) wanted to, they could prevent you from turning that BTC into fiat and vice versa.

k__ 3y ago
That's only an issue as long as you need fiat.
travoc 3y ago
The same way they prevent people from turning cash into drugs? How’s that working?