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Did Apple Just Break Web Apps in iOS 17.4 Beta (EU)? – Open Web Advocacy

deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
easton 3y ago
Probably because they don’t have a way to replace the built in web view with one from another browser (yet)? So they are now bookmarks that open in the user’s default browser, which may not be WebKit backed (complying with the law). Smells like a bug, or something they had to rush out the door (although I’d bet wholesale replacing the default engine for web views would break stuff)
- mtomweb 3y ago
  They've had 2 years since the final text of the DMA was written. From memory I think we saw it in Feb/Mar 2022. In the text of the DMA it says "When gatekeepers operate and impose web browser engines, they are in a position to determine the functionality and standards that will apply not only to their own web browsers, but also to competing web browsers and, in turn, to web software applications" which was written to show the intention of the browser engine change was to facilitate web apps.
kanbara 3y ago
[flagged]
- lern_too_spel 3y ago
  > the DMA will lead to chrome ruining the internet just as IE had previously. Chrome is already the dominant browser on the desktop. It has not ruined the Internet. Safari having any significant share at all, with its updates tied to OS updates, its long-standing bugs in a blackhole bug system, and its slow addition of features that might help the open web compete with native apps, is what's holding the mobile web back. I say this as a Firefox user.
MBCook 3y ago
It’s a beta. If you find a bug in a beta, report it. It could just be a bug. You don’t need a thinkpiece. And you don’t need to panic.
- nerdjon 3y ago
  But panic gets clicks? The speculation about how this slipped through the door is where I stopped reading. If this was released? Sure. Let’s speculate. But I swear people forget what a beta is.
  - Sirizarry 3y ago
    A public beta does not and should not allow major breaking changes like this. Would you be satisfied as a manager or PM if this was released to the public under your watch? You’d be fired if this wasn’t an intentional change. If it’s not patched immediately then it’s a good assumption that this is an intentional change.
    - tpmoney 3y ago
      Yes, beta software should be expected to be full of bugs and breaks. I know I'm going to sound like an old man ranting at clouds here, but I really do blame Google for this. Before Google release GMail "Beta" (which it was in for 5 years https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/after-five-years-gmail-exits-beta/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/after-five-y...) beta releases of software were widely understood to be very likely to be barely functional and full of many obvious bugs. The public beta release of OS X (the original beta release) was so slow and incomplete in so many ways that it was impossible to use as a primary OS, even if you discounted that it needed OS 9 and Carbon to provide a good chunk of your apps. But Google dropped gmail "beta" on the world and then proceeded to release multiple other pieces of software all labeled "beta" and it seemed like suddenly "beta" just meant "software that might have updates that change things". Or even worse as more and more companies started releasing their own software under the "beta" label, it seemed to also take on a definition of "software that we want to release, but we don't want to claim is actually finished so that you can't give us crap if it doesn't have features / work the way you want". It got so bad that for a while it looked like "alpha" was going to become the new "beta" and some companies started doing public/developer "alpha" releases. For Gmail, the general end user experience was polished enough (and realistically the web as a whole was buggy enough) that beta lost any sense of "warning here be dragons" and now we get these sorts of breathless panic articles every handful of years when bugs show up in developer betas for various pieces of software. Beta == very likely broken in some way, it always has and I'd really like to reverse this trend of thinking it doesn't.
anticensor 3y ago
This is one more reason to allow alternative web browsers everywhere.
aratuk 3y ago
Wow, hyperbole much? How many people actually affected in any serious way by this?
- akmarinov 3y ago
  It makes PWAs an even worse idea, since they won’t work on one of the duopoly platforms in the EU (a market of 450 million) at all

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

Probably because they don’t have a way to replace the built in web view with one from another browser (yet)? So they are now bookmarks that open in the user’s default browser, which may not be WebKit backed (complying with the law). Smells like a bug, or something they had to rush out the door (although I’d bet wholesale replacing the default engine for web views would break stuff)

mtomweb 3y ago
They've had 2 years since the final text of the DMA was written. From memory I think we saw it in Feb/Mar 2022. In the text of the DMA it says "When gatekeepers operate and impose web browser engines, they are in a position to determine the functionality and standards that will apply not only to their own web browsers, but also to competing web browsers and, in turn, to web software applications" which was written to show the intention of the browser engine change was to facilitate web apps.

kanbara 3y ago

[flagged]

lern_too_spel 3y ago
> the DMA will lead to chrome ruining the internet just as IE had previously. Chrome is already the dominant browser on the desktop. It has not ruined the Internet. Safari having any significant share at all, with its updates tied to OS updates, its long-standing bugs in a blackhole bug system, and its slow addition of features that might help the open web compete with native apps, is what's holding the mobile web back. I say this as a Firefox user.

MBCook 3y ago

It’s a beta. If you find a bug in a beta, report it. It could just be a bug. You don’t need a thinkpiece. And you don’t need to panic.

nerdjon 3y ago
But panic gets clicks? The speculation about how this slipped through the door is where I stopped reading. If this was released? Sure. Let’s speculate. But I swear people forget what a beta is.
- Sirizarry 3y ago
  A public beta does not and should not allow major breaking changes like this. Would you be satisfied as a manager or PM if this was released to the public under your watch? You’d be fired if this wasn’t an intentional change. If it’s not patched immediately then it’s a good assumption that this is an intentional change.
  - tpmoney 3y ago
    Yes, beta software should be expected to be full of bugs and breaks. I know I'm going to sound like an old man ranting at clouds here, but I really do blame Google for this. Before Google release GMail "Beta" (which it was in for 5 years https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/after-five-years-gmail-exits-beta/ https://www.cnet.com/tech/services-and-software/after-five-y...) beta releases of software were widely understood to be very likely to be barely functional and full of many obvious bugs. The public beta release of OS X (the original beta release) was so slow and incomplete in so many ways that it was impossible to use as a primary OS, even if you discounted that it needed OS 9 and Carbon to provide a good chunk of your apps. But Google dropped gmail "beta" on the world and then proceeded to release multiple other pieces of software all labeled "beta" and it seemed like suddenly "beta" just meant "software that might have updates that change things". Or even worse as more and more companies started releasing their own software under the "beta" label, it seemed to also take on a definition of "software that we want to release, but we don't want to claim is actually finished so that you can't give us crap if it doesn't have features / work the way you want". It got so bad that for a while it looked like "alpha" was going to become the new "beta" and some companies started doing public/developer "alpha" releases. For Gmail, the general end user experience was polished enough (and realistically the web as a whole was buggy enough) that beta lost any sense of "warning here be dragons" and now we get these sorts of breathless panic articles every handful of years when bugs show up in developer betas for various pieces of software. Beta == very likely broken in some way, it always has and I'd really like to reverse this trend of thinking it doesn't.

anticensor 3y ago

This is one more reason to allow alternative web browsers everywhere.

aratuk 3y ago

Wow, hyperbole much? How many people actually affected in any serious way by this?

akmarinov 3y ago
It makes PWAs an even worse idea, since they won’t work on one of the duopoly platforms in the EU (a market of 450 million) at all