4 ms·

> Are you aware of the usage of PFAS in textiles, food packaging, and waterproof-treated goods? No, because that's not true. Teflon (the substance used widely

by timr 3y ago

> Are you aware of the usage of PFAS in textiles, food packaging, and waterproof-treated goods? No, because that's not true. Teflon (the substance used widely in waterproof goods and food packaging) is not the same thing as PFAS [1] (which is actually not one thing, but a whole class of things). Teflon is PTFE [2], which is different. The terminology being casually flung around this issue is misleading. Certain PFAS types were used in the manufacture of PTFE (specifically Perfluorooctanoic acid [3]) which is the actual answer to GPs question -- this is primarily an issue of industrial concern. PFOA is far more reactive than PTFE, which is one of the most inert substances known to man. You can't just group these chemicals together in the bucket of "things that have fluoride polymers" and panic about all of them. We regularly put teflon parts in humans, because they don't react with anything. Proving harm here is an incredibly high bar. [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_substances#/media/File:Perfluorooctanesulfonic_acid.svg https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Per-_and_polyfluoroalkyl_subst... [2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polytetrafluoroethylene [3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Perfluorooctanoic_acid

User3456335 3y ago
PTFE is literally the first example mentioned in the Sample chemicals section of the wiki of PFAS, which you linked. Regardless of your views on whether Teflon is harmful, your comment contains misinformation. Teflon/PTFE is PFAS according to the OECD definition and the Wiki page. Your point regarding whether all PFAS is harmful may very well be interesting but cannot be taken seriously if it is accompanied by blatant misinformation.
- timr 3y ago
  They list it as a "perfluroalkyl substance", which is exactly what I'm saying is wrong -- Teflon is nothing like the other substances, if only in that it isn't water soluble (it's more than that, but just for starters). You can't just group everything together under that category and claim they're all the same. These are ontological games played by people who either don't understand chemistry, want to scare people, are themselves irrationally scared, or have some other motivation for drawing the broadest possible definition of "PFAS". If you don't understand the argument someone is making and have to rely on the verbatim language in a wikipedia article, you should probably resist the urge the label things "misinformation". Instead, just say "I don't like/agree with what you're saying", which is really what you mean.
  - User3456335 3y ago
    My only point is that you use the term PFAS for a different group of compounds than multiple different official sources define it as. I'm just pointing out that that looks strange to me as a layperson.
birdiesanders 3y ago
Gortex and similar waterproof/fireproof gear are loaded with pfas/pfoa cocktails.
- timr 3y ago
  No, they aren't. PFAS (and specifically PFOA) has a carboxyl group, making it much more polar than PTFE (it is an acid). PFOA is soluble in water. PFTE is not. Even if there were lingering PFOA in Teflon, it would be quickly washed away. Some people try to confuse the issue by grouping together anything with a poly-CF2 chain as "PFAS", but this is wrong.
  - 1over137 3y ago
    >…would be quickly washed away There is no “away”. “away” is our waterways and soil.
    - paulmd 3y ago
      It’s been washed outside the environment
      - TylerE 3y ago
        Please let me know where your sink that drains directly into the sun is. It would prove rather handy for the large quantity of nuclear waste I need to dispose of.
        paulmd 3y ago
        (apologies but it's a goodie) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM
      - BoiledCabbage 3y ago
        Can we please keep the reddit comments on reddit? There is an entire site of simple jokes and small puns - please post them there instead. Yes I know it was just a joke. I do have a sense of humor. Yes I know downvote buttons exist. Those are the sugar additive of online comments. In blind taste tests people will often vote the sugary comment is prefered - and this is repeated until it's filled with sugary comments. HN is one of the few places to have avoided this fate - I'd love to keep it this way.
ruined 3y ago
no. PTFE is a member of the class PFAS. polytetrafluoroethylene is a polyfluoroalkyl substance.
- timr 3y ago
  PTFE is not a PFAS unless you define PFAS so broadly as to be meaningless. They're common only in that they both contain polyfluorinated carbon chains.
  - hcurtiss 3y ago
    As it turns out, the definition of PFAS is hotly contested, with those advocating for increased regulation often also advocating for a very broad definition. https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2022/is-there-a-right-definition-of-pfas/ https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2022/is-there-a-right-d...
  - StableAlkyne 3y ago
    Polytetrafluoroethylene is a polymer where the individual monomers are fluorinated alkanes. I fail to see how a polymer made entirely of fluorinated alkyl substances is not a polyfluorinated alkyl substance. I'm not really sure how one could argue they're not if we ignore politics and just look at chemical nomenclature
    - timr 3y ago
      > I fail to see how a polymer made entirely of fluorinated alkyl substances is not a polyfluorinated alkyl substance. It is a "polyfluorinated alkyl". The term is so broad as to be meaningless, and PFOA is wildly different, chemically and physically, than PTFE. One is a water-soluble acid. The other is an insoluble substance that is one of the most chemically inert things known to science. It's like labeling something as "fluoride-containing" and panicking because your city water supply has it (which some people do, but I digress).
  - dataflow 3y ago
    https://chemsec.org/the-teflon-chemical-ptfe-is-often-touted-as-a-safe-cousin-of-toxic-pfas-but-is-it-really/ https://chemsec.org/the-teflon-chemical-ptfe-is-often-touted... "PTFE, or polytetrafluoroethylene, belongs to a subgroup of PFAS called fluorinated polymers"
feedsmgmt 3y ago
"CR found 'forever chemicals' in bowls, bags, plates, and wrappers, even from some companies that say they've phased them out" https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/dangerous-pfas-chemicals-are-in-your-food-packaging-a3786252074/ https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/dan...
- timr 3y ago
  No, they found organic fuorine in the products. FTA: > CR tested products for their total organic fluorine content, which is considered the simplest way to assess a material’s total PFAS content." Totally different, and so completely misleading that it's mind-boggling. Do you know how many things have organic fluorine that have nothing to do with PFAS? Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organofluorine_chemistry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organofluorine_chemistry They repeatedly say in the article that it's basically impossible to reduce organic fluorine content to zero, because it's everywhere. You cannot leap to the conclusion that "finding organic fluorine" has any relationship to Teflon in food wrapping (especially at the 20ppm threshold they used), and you also can't jump to the conclusion that this means that there's a specific health risk. They do test for a few specific PFAS compounds "in a subset" of the wrappers later in the article. This is more compelling -- but again, you don't know where it comes from.
  - feedsmgmt 3y ago
    Per the article there are few sources of that substance other than PFAS. What makes you believe that there are many sources for it? "That’s because all PFAS contain organic fluorine, and there are few other sources of the compound, says Graham Peaslee, PhD, a professor of physics, chemistry, and biochemistry at the University of Notre Dame in Indiana, who has studied PFAS in food packaging. Another complication: PFAS is used so widely—found in ink on food containers, recycled paper, machines that make packaging, and more—that it often shows up in products unintentionally."
    - feedsmgmt 3y ago
      Here is another study they did that is phthalate and they link a PDF of their methodology: https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/the-plastic-chemicals-hiding-in-your-food-a7358224781/ https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/the...
Natsu 3y ago
This is why I don't like the term "forever chemicals" because it's not clear what it covers and it feels like a marketing term.
theptip 3y ago
PFAS in paper straws: https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2023/08/31/PFAS-forever-chemicals-identified-in-90-of-paper-straws-tested-in-Europe https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2023/08/31/PFAS-foreve...

by timr 3y ago

User3456335 3y ago

PTFE is literally the first example mentioned in the Sample chemicals section of the wiki of PFAS, which you linked. Regardless of your views on whether Teflon is harmful, your comment contains misinformation. Teflon/PTFE is PFAS according to the OECD definition and the Wiki page. Your point regarding whether all PFAS is harmful may very well be interesting but cannot be taken seriously if it is accompanied by blatant misinformation.

timr 3y ago
They list it as a "perfluroalkyl substance", which is exactly what I'm saying is wrong -- Teflon is nothing like the other substances, if only in that it isn't water soluble (it's more than that, but just for starters). You can't just group everything together under that category and claim they're all the same. These are ontological games played by people who either don't understand chemistry, want to scare people, are themselves irrationally scared, or have some other motivation for drawing the broadest possible definition of "PFAS". If you don't understand the argument someone is making and have to rely on the verbatim language in a wikipedia article, you should probably resist the urge the label things "misinformation". Instead, just say "I don't like/agree with what you're saying", which is really what you mean.
- User3456335 3y ago
  My only point is that you use the term PFAS for a different group of compounds than multiple different official sources define it as. I'm just pointing out that that looks strange to me as a layperson.

birdiesanders 3y ago

Gortex and similar waterproof/fireproof gear are loaded with pfas/pfoa cocktails.

timr 3y ago
No, they aren't. PFAS (and specifically PFOA) has a carboxyl group, making it much more polar than PTFE (it is an acid). PFOA is soluble in water. PFTE is not. Even if there were lingering PFOA in Teflon, it would be quickly washed away. Some people try to confuse the issue by grouping together anything with a poly-CF2 chain as "PFAS", but this is wrong.
- 1over137 3y ago
  >…would be quickly washed away There is no “away”. “away” is our waterways and soil.
  - paulmd 3y ago
    It’s been washed outside the environment
    - TylerE 3y ago
      Please let me know where your sink that drains directly into the sun is. It would prove rather handy for the large quantity of nuclear waste I need to dispose of.
      - paulmd 3y ago
        (apologies but it's a goodie) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3m5qxZm_JqM
    - BoiledCabbage 3y ago
      Can we please keep the reddit comments on reddit? There is an entire site of simple jokes and small puns - please post them there instead. Yes I know it was just a joke. I do have a sense of humor. Yes I know downvote buttons exist. Those are the sugar additive of online comments. In blind taste tests people will often vote the sugary comment is prefered - and this is repeated until it's filled with sugary comments. HN is one of the few places to have avoided this fate - I'd love to keep it this way.

ruined 3y ago

no. PTFE is a member of the class PFAS. polytetrafluoroethylene is a polyfluoroalkyl substance.

timr 3y ago
PTFE is not a PFAS unless you define PFAS so broadly as to be meaningless. They're common only in that they both contain polyfluorinated carbon chains.
- hcurtiss 3y ago
  As it turns out, the definition of PFAS is hotly contested, with those advocating for increased regulation often also advocating for a very broad definition. https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2022/is-there-a-right-definition-of-pfas/ https://www.bu.edu/sph/news/articles/2022/is-there-a-right-d...
- StableAlkyne 3y ago
  Polytetrafluoroethylene is a polymer where the individual monomers are fluorinated alkanes. I fail to see how a polymer made entirely of fluorinated alkyl substances is not a polyfluorinated alkyl substance. I'm not really sure how one could argue they're not if we ignore politics and just look at chemical nomenclature
  - timr 3y ago
    > I fail to see how a polymer made entirely of fluorinated alkyl substances is not a polyfluorinated alkyl substance. It is a "polyfluorinated alkyl". The term is so broad as to be meaningless, and PFOA is wildly different, chemically and physically, than PTFE. One is a water-soluble acid. The other is an insoluble substance that is one of the most chemically inert things known to science. It's like labeling something as "fluoride-containing" and panicking because your city water supply has it (which some people do, but I digress).
- dataflow 3y ago
  https://chemsec.org/the-teflon-chemical-ptfe-is-often-touted-as-a-safe-cousin-of-toxic-pfas-but-is-it-really/ https://chemsec.org/the-teflon-chemical-ptfe-is-often-touted... "PTFE, or polytetrafluoroethylene, belongs to a subgroup of PFAS called fluorinated polymers"

feedsmgmt 3y ago

"CR found 'forever chemicals' in bowls, bags, plates, and wrappers, even from some companies that say they've phased them out" https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/dangerous-pfas-chemicals-are-in-your-food-packaging-a3786252074/ https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/dan...

timr 3y ago
No, they found organic fuorine in the products. FTA: > CR tested products for their total organic fluorine content, which is considered the simplest way to assess a material’s total PFAS content." Totally different, and so completely misleading that it's mind-boggling. Do you know how many things have organic fluorine that have nothing to do with PFAS? Here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organofluorine_chemistry https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Organofluorine_chemistry They repeatedly say in the article that it's basically impossible to reduce organic fluorine content to zero, because it's everywhere. You cannot leap to the conclusion that "finding organic fluorine" has any relationship to Teflon in food wrapping (especially at the 20ppm threshold they used), and you also can't jump to the conclusion that this means that there's a specific health risk. They do test for a few specific PFAS compounds "in a subset" of the wrappers later in the article. This is more compelling -- but again, you don't know where it comes from.
- feedsmgmt 3y ago
  Per the article there are few sources of that substance other than PFAS. What makes you believe that there are many sources for it? "That’s because all PFAS contain organic fluorine, and there are few other sources of the compound, says Graham Peaslee, PhD, a professor of physics, chemistry, and biochemistry at the University of Notre Dame in Indiana, who has studied PFAS in food packaging. Another complication: PFAS is used so widely—found in ink on food containers, recycled paper, machines that make packaging, and more—that it often shows up in products unintentionally."
  - feedsmgmt 3y ago
    Here is another study they did that is phthalate and they link a PDF of their methodology: https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/the-plastic-chemicals-hiding-in-your-food-a7358224781/ https://www.consumerreports.org/health/food-contaminants/the...

Natsu 3y ago

This is why I don't like the term "forever chemicals" because it's not clear what it covers and it feels like a marketing term.

theptip 3y ago

PFAS in paper straws: https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2023/08/31/PFAS-forever-chemicals-identified-in-90-of-paper-straws-tested-in-Europe https://www.foodnavigator.com/Article/2023/08/31/PFAS-foreve...