13 ms·

Why Don't We Teach People How to Parent?

32 points by loughnane 3y ago

paulus_magnus2 3y ago
this is another overreach of collectivism virus creeping upon us to make parenting even harder. As of 2022, the average cost of raising a child to age 17 is $310605 [1] [2]. That does not include all the unpaid parenting time which is probably another 40h per week between the parents. So we're talking 18+ years worth of unpaid time invested (or sunk) into your child. And when they go to work the government gets to tax them and keep all of it. Financially speaking we've invested $500k (equiv) into each child and the government gets to keep all the return. For the government and capitalist system it's much cheaper to import "ready" adults from abroad after someone else bore the cost. The tax system and incentives need to be re-arranged if we want people to have children. Even the biggest proponent (Musk) isn't doing anything to help out. Surely his employees have no time for parenting after these 60h weeks. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/090415/cost-raising-child-america.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/09041... [2] https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-true-cost-of-raising-a-child https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-true-cost-of-raising-a-child
h2odragon 3y ago
Raise at least one puppy before you become parents. Make your first mistakes where they're easier to forgive. Then you have a hound helping raise the tot, which can be very rewarding for everybody. Alternatively, if you can't stand handling shit; you learn that in short duration "easy mode" first and face less social disfavor for bailing out of the commitment to a puppy.
- meowfly 3y ago
  I think this is generally good advice. I'd be a bit careful though and add that some people who will make fine parents are poor dog owners. They don't think of the dog as part of the family/pack and the dog ends up in the backyard alone its whole life. Having a dog can also be cumbersome if you are renting, because you will pay a premium to ensure your future apartment is dog friendly. At my local Humane Society most young dogs seem to get adopted quickly. Senior dogs or dogs with health problems have a hard time. I think anyone who wants to get a puppy should be willing to re-home as soon as possible instead of crating or banishing their dog because it's misbehaving (or you don't want them on your furniture). Certain dog breeds (e.g Dachshunds) are really easy to re-home because there are rescues dedicated to them. Seems like my local shelter is usually full of pits and lab mixes.
- antisthenes 3y ago
  I strongly second this post. I raised a puppy during COVID lockdowns while working remotely. Raising, training, and socializing a dog are great training wheels for later becoming a parent. It is a lot more forgiving, and the childhood phase for a dog is way, way shorter than it is for a child. If you can tough it out for 8-10 months, you'll also benefit from a loyal and well-behaved companion. There are also the additional benefits of befriending other dog owners, and the emotional support from a pet. Not sure if this will work the same for a cat, but it doesn't hurt to try!
- codegeek 3y ago
  As a father of 3 kids who has also raised puppies, I second this.
- stevofolife 3y ago
  Seems reasonable but not so friendly in practice. Not everyone can afford to raise a pet due to living conditions, financial reasons, and time and attention. Edit: "Afford" might not be the best term to use here since it relates to money mainly. "Capacity" might be slightly better.
  - bokchoi 3y ago
    Not to be snide, but if you can't afford to raise a puppy, you probably can't afford to raise children.
    - stevofolife 3y ago
      I don't think that how life really works? Also not trying to be a snide either.
      - feoren 3y ago
        Which part is not how life works? Quick Google searches say that the average lifetime expense for a dog is $20k to $55k; for a child it's $240k. I'm sure these numbers could be argued endlessly, but the rough order of magnitude is right. And life really does work like "if you can't afford $X, then you definitely can't afford $10X".
        randomdata 3y ago
        > I'm sure these numbers could be argued endlessly Indeed they could. Most painfully, the child figure includes things like the cost of keeping a larger house. Yet in reality a child couldn't care less how big or small of a house you have. Hell, early North American settlers used to live in tiny, one room log cabins and raised like 12 children in them just fine. If parents choose to live in more luxurious accommodations, good on them, but if we are being honest that is an adult cost to satisfy adult desires, not a child cost. The cost to support a child on what is actually necessary to support a child is only a tiny fraction of that. But let's say, for the sake of discussion, that the figure is irrefutable. A big difference is still that the child starts to contribute after the first few years. The outflow may be $240k, but there is an inflow to offset it. Unless you are an evil parent who locks the kids in their bedrooms until they turn 18, a net gain would not be unexpected. While there may be individual dogs out there that could have the same said about them, in the typical case the dog can't offer anything to contribute, even if the dog wanted nothing more.
- switch007 3y ago
  I've been told by multiple parents that I shouldn't have the audacity to suggest raising a puppy is ANYTHING like raising a child lol
  - AndrewDucker 3y ago
    It's like a kid insofar as it takes a fair bit of effort, constrains your life, and you have to deal with another sentient being with their own likes, dislikes, and ability to make mess that you're responsible for. So you learn a lot about your own tolerance for dealing with all of that. But there's a lot more of all of that with kids, and obviously the details are vastly different.
  - zwaps 3y ago
    It really isn’t
  - pavel_lishin 3y ago
    Parent who's had pets here: it's fine to suggest it as a weed-out approach - if you can't handle a puppy, you're going to have a hard time with a child. But I understand and share the frustration when "dog moms" and "cat dads" try to equate owning a pet with having a child.
- smusamashah 3y ago
  It could be just a pet than a puppy specifically. Just makes this advice a bit more broader/universal. Even then, pets probably don't get same respect / care in all cultures.
  - pavel_lishin 3y ago
    Not all pets are equal; raising a kitten is not as labor-intensive as raising a puppy, and raising a goldfish will teach you very few skills tranferrable to raising children or other pets.
- carabiner 3y ago
  Yes, I lost my mind raising a kitten. SO MUCH ENERGY, running around at 2 am, chewing on random shit non-stop, $3k in emergency vet bills, finding overnight pet sitters for vacations, kitten-proofing my apartment (basically same as baby-proofing it). I can only imagine a baby would be 10x more effort and cost. Now I love him more than anything, but it steeled my decision to get a vasectomy.
  - swozey 3y ago
    I only have 2 dogs now but I miss the absolute chaos of having 2 cats flying around the house. My dogs don't do ANYTHING all day long unless I prompt it. Like, they don't play with one another unless I start throwing the ball to them then they'll wrassle around and burn some energy. If I don't do that they literally will just sleep all day. I want a cat so bad i'm on so many cat subreddits. But I HATE litterboxes and I don't know if one will fight my dogs. Cats will zoom around all day long. Such fun chaotic energy. I can't imagine a baby I'll pass I'll keep cats and dogs
    - carabiner 3y ago
      I use the SpeedySift litter box which might be the most litter efficient solution that's cheap. The Litter Robot would be better but $$. A lot of innovation in automated litter boxes in the past 2 years though. Most of them cost around $500.
- browningstreet 3y ago
  Take your household/tribe and that puppy to dog training class, too.
austin-cheney 3y ago
There are lots of parent classes available for the economically depreciated and extremely young, especially in urban areas of the US. Even with teaching and all the guidance and preparation in the world some people are still astonishingly bad, like criminal bad. Much of that has to do with various mental health conditions, especially those passed from parent to child like Fragile X. There isn't a magic solution to gift people some credible amount of empathy, awareness, reduction of narcissism, basic handle on finances, nutrition, and so forth. These conversations tend to devolve into eugenics. The US used to feel very strongly one way about eugenics and then once the horrors of the holocaust were revealed those same people did a 180. The current sentiment, at least in the US, is just let people fail. That sounds harsh, but attempting to regulate reproductive rights is complicated. Yet, for some strange reason abortion is always an outlier to that reasoning on regulation.
andrei_says_ 3y ago
One important aspect of parenting is the massive amount of childhood trauma that the parents carry which trauma gets triggered in the presence of their children. Plus a lot of normalized abuse. So, teaching as in informing, is only a part of the equation. Healing is a very big part, too.
bell-cot 3y ago
Reaction: Who's this magical "we", who's supposed to teach parenting? Is it related to the magical "them" who run the world, from a child's PoV?
- lapcat 3y ago
  > Who's this magical "we", who's supposed to teach parenting? Schools? The same "magical" we who teach math, for example. I haven't been in school for a long time, but back in the day we had home ec and shop classes. I even took a typing class in high school, which turned out to be quite useful. We can teach kids practical life skills.
  - readthenotes1 3y ago
    "teach math so effectively".
  - r0ckarong 3y ago
    Schools are already notoriously failing children and their individual needs. Parenting decided by committee that needs to be comparable to retain budgets. Oh my word, sounds like hell.
    - lapcat 3y ago
      > Schools are already notoriously failing children and their individual needs. That's an overgeneralization. Schools vary widely in quality. Some schools have excellent results.
      - u32480932048 3y ago
        Source?
      - deleted 3y ago
        [deleted]
  - ejb999 3y ago
    I doubt it - many schools can't even get 50% of the students proficient in math and english - I sure as heck don't want those schools teaching parenting skills as well.
readthenotes1 3y ago
I'm not sure who I would have trusted to teach me how to be a parent based on outcomes.
swozey 3y ago
As a near 40 year old with absolutely tons of friends and family with children divorced or potentially not divorced by now, who never ever wants to have one of his own, it absolutely blows my mind how little effort goes into preparing parents for a child. I cannot believe I have friends that had kids in their early 20s or teens. Going to grab a beer with my 38yo friend and he's got a 16 yo kid.. wild.
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  The hospital gave us a 15 minute class on how to change diapers -- what else do you need to know? /s
  - swozey 3y ago
    lmao I'm still at the "I'm not touching that baby, I'll drop and break it" phase.
- anthonypasq 3y ago
  I mean historically this is the role of parents and grandparents
- lazide 3y ago
  I think most of the effort goes into convincing them to even do it in the first place. Frankly, telling them how hard it is going to be and educating them on dealing with it just makes that first part that much harder.
- asdff 3y ago
  What is also sad about a lack of any standard or education is when this leads to generational perpetuation of poor habits. You might not even realize you are continuing generational traumas, you might just think this is how you were raised and this is fine, or maybe it even subliminally impacts you and you don't even consider your own biases and how they are affecting others.
- oliwarner 3y ago
  Funny thing is, I look at that with envy. I'm about to break into my 40s, with two young kids and I kinda wish we did it sooner. I'd have more energy for them for starters, but I also realise that I'm unlikely to enjoy grandchildren if they leave it as late as we did.
ajhurliman 3y ago
Yeah, and why don't we teach people how to vote for the correct candidate either? I think we need some sort of big, faceless institution to tell us how to live and interact with our kids, that would probably be the safest. /s
- u32480932048 3y ago
  I, for one, Trust The Institution™! The Most Glorious And Wonderful Headmaster is a doctor, lawyer, engineer, military general, and astronaut! As the symbolic parent of every child who attends, his picture hangs in every classroom. The Great Worshipful Headmaster has more parenting experience than all parents in the village put together! He has brought us Parent-Child Science from the gods, which he used to prove which religion is the best for kids, and has published many papers on how voting for the wrong party (or listening to Taylor Swift) is literally child abuse. I eagerly await their next communication!
criddell 3y ago
My wife and I took a parenting class before our first was born. I was surprised by how many people in the class already had at least one child and also how many people were there because of a court order. That said, the class was small. Maybe 10 people in all. For me, it was a worthwhile class.
- randomdata 3y ago
  > My wife and I took a parenting class before our first was born. Same here, and I also took a parenting class in high school. Further, once the child was born the teachings have continued, with many teachers offering additional teachings and support. I don't think I have seen anything else in life that has tried to be taught to the same extent. Not teaching how to parent must be a regional thing. Or is it is that we do teach it, but parents don't want to be taught?
- RhysU 3y ago
  In our parenting class of about 20 attendees, many years ago, there were a married pair of professional clowns. I have always wanted to know how that kid turned out.
kardianos 3y ago
We used to teach home economics which often included aspects of this. Or: just watch super nanny and bluey? Better then many, if not most, "parenting" resources.
303uru 3y ago
I have done so much reading, listening and attended classes on parenting. A few things I've learned: 1. You never stop learning, kids change and they change quickly. The parenting techniques that worked yesterday may fail today. 2. Recognizing and normalizing emotion without feeding it underlies a lot of parenting skills. 3. It's ok to make mistakes, it demonstrates to kids that they can also make mistakes. 4. You really need to unpack how you were parented, what worked, what didn't and any trauma (ideally before you have kids) because you will pass all of that down if you don't put thought into it. 5. Being a good parent is neither being a fascist dictator who beats their kid into submission, nor is it being your kids permissive best friend. Finding the balance is tricky.
timzaman 3y ago
The article implies parents do not naturally know, or can figure out, how to raise their kids. We should assume they instinctively know and can do it, like has been done for millions of years. We shouldn't make parents think they cannot do it. The way to put it much better is why we don't 'support' parenting better, or help them. I think this phrasing is important. Parenting is not something that needs to be 'taught'.
- lapcat 3y ago
  > We should assume they instinctively know and can do it, like has been done for millions of years. Why should we assume that? My own parents seemed to be generally clueless about parenting. I assume that our ancient ancestors were generally clueless too. Instinct is for animals, learning and science for humans.
  - empath-nirvana 3y ago
    There's sort of a base level of parental instinct, but that gets you about as far as not letting them die.
    - lazide 3y ago
      Anecdotally? Only most of the time for most people.
      - empath-nirvana 3y ago
        I think that's true of pretty much every instinct, including fairly basic ones like self-preservation.
- thimp 3y ago
  This is a very naive perspective. As a parent for the last 20 years, I had no idea what I was doing and did a shitty job of the first decade. And to this day I see people making the same mistakes I did.
smusamashah 3y ago
It should be basic right or set mandatory by government like early education schools for kids.
EgregiousCube 3y ago
Non-paywalled: https://archive.is/j3i0N https://archive.is/j3i0N
kzz102 3y ago
What I learned as a parent and from interacting with other parents is that most parenting advises are useless because it's what "works for their kid". Most parent's style is coevolved with their kid through lots of try-and-error, and can hardly generalize. After reading a ton of books when I started as a parent, I now mostly just use common sense and my understanding of my child as a person.
randomdata 3y ago
We do teach people how to parent. I took a parenting course in high school. I also took another parenting course with my wife in the months leading up to having a child. And once I had children, others were more than happy to continue to help guide me through the process.
mbivert 3y ago
A tricky thing with raising kids is that, in the same situation, different kids may react differently: a "incidental" challenge will be detrimental here, but in the long run (decade/s) beneficial there. I'm not sure that this can be predicted easily. Furthermore, predicting the effect at scale, in the long run, feels impossible. An unregulated parenting education feels reasonable: let them make mistakes, and progressively grow from there, over a few generations. Let alone the difficulty of finding a common ground, especially on something involving strong emotional ties. It was probably easier in the past, when religions/states were stronger, because, for better or for worse, they provided a way to unify people.
Lockranor 3y ago
We do teach people parenting. The action is called parenting. I teach my kids how to parent by practicing it. I learned how to parent my children by observing my boomer parents, and doing the opposite in nearly every circumstance.
- mitthrowaway2 3y ago
  My parents did a fantastic job of raising me. However, at the time that I was a child being raised, I didn't take notes about the things they were doing that worked so well. I was just a kid, and had only the vaguest notion at the time that I might someday be a parent myself. I had no mind about me to study how I was being parented. Now I wish I had a more detailed memory. I have many memories of my childhood of course, but I don't remember the little things that my parents were doing "behind the scenes" to make it all work.
- tivert 3y ago
  > We do teach people parenting. The action is called parenting. Even the unpaywalled part of the article mentions that experience is too narrow and obviously inadequate. For instance: being parented is quite different from parenting; there's a long important period where the child will have no memory (or only vague disconnected memory) of being parented; and the experience of being parented gives insight into other parenting styles. > I teach my kids how to parent by practicing it. I learned how to parent my children by observing my boomer parents, and doing the opposite in nearly every circumstance. The opposite of one mistake isn't the correct action, it's usually a different mistake. Even though you gave zero details, I suspect "doing the opposite" will just set your kids up to repeat your parents' mistakes.
hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago
Probably because it wouldn't accomplish much: https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Reasons-Have-More-Kids/dp/0465028616 https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Reasons-Have-More-Kids/dp/046... Ensure your kids are reasonably happy. It's not super expensive, they don't need a trip to Disney World every year or anything. Try not to let them make obvious, life altering mistakes. Past that, just enjoy the ride.
BenoitP 3y ago
Just like tech goes through cycles and everything old is new again (Corba to XML to JSON to gRPC), maybe morals are too on a cycle. In tech the typical time constant is for the young gen to burn and churn. In morals it is a few generations (as grandparents influence it) Maybe the cycle will bring back social shame again, which to me is at a historical low. And we'll again have manners manuals with content copied from 1924. Politeness, saying please and thank you, waiting for adults to finish before interrupting, doing house chores, no shouting, etc.
- mlrtime 3y ago
  There are places [In the US] where this is still practiced. Large families, polite and kindness. However, they are mostly also found in religious areas which turn some people away.
kakaz 3y ago
[dead]
MattPalmer1086 3y ago
I did the exact opposite when I had my son. There were so many books saying do this, don't do that. Everyone had words of wisdom for me, like "children love routine" and so on. Much advice seemed self serving to me, and much of it was contradictory. I decided to ignore all advice, read nothing, and just find our own way. Seems to be fine. My kid is happy, doing well and we aren't beating ourselves up over whether we're "doing it right".
tivert 3y ago
> Why Don't We Teach People How to Parent? Because our society is optimized to achieve short-term extraction of value on behalf of the ownership class, and it's an ideological imperative for it to squeeze ever harder.
amriksohata 3y ago
Generational trauma is a big thing because of the lack of teaching to parent with both genders now working kids no longer get the same amount of time. One thing I learnt is don't shout, don't smack, let them feel their emotions and co sleeping is way better than cry it out. Acknowledging them is so important rather than worrying you are spoiling them. Spoiling them is more giving them tablets and devices

32 points by loughnane 3y ago

this is another overreach of collectivism virus creeping upon us to make parenting even harder. As of 2022, the average cost of raising a child to age 17 is $310605 [1] [2]. That does not include all the unpaid parenting time which is probably another 40h per week between the parents. So we're talking 18+ years worth of unpaid time invested (or sunk) into your child. And when they go to work the government gets to tax them and keep all of it. Financially speaking we've invested $500k (equiv) into each child and the government gets to keep all the return. For the government and capitalist system it's much cheaper to import "ready" adults from abroad after someone else bore the cost. The tax system and incentives need to be re-arranged if we want people to have children. Even the biggest proponent (Musk) isn't doing anything to help out. Surely his employees have no time for parenting after these 60h weeks. [1] https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/090415/cost-raising-child-america.asp https://www.investopedia.com/articles/personal-finance/09041... [2] https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-true-cost-of-raising-a-child https://ifstudies.org/blog/the-true-cost-of-raising-a-child

h2odragon 3y ago

Raise at least one puppy before you become parents. Make your first mistakes where they're easier to forgive. Then you have a hound helping raise the tot, which can be very rewarding for everybody. Alternatively, if you can't stand handling shit; you learn that in short duration "easy mode" first and face less social disfavor for bailing out of the commitment to a puppy.

meowfly 3y ago
I think this is generally good advice. I'd be a bit careful though and add that some people who will make fine parents are poor dog owners. They don't think of the dog as part of the family/pack and the dog ends up in the backyard alone its whole life. Having a dog can also be cumbersome if you are renting, because you will pay a premium to ensure your future apartment is dog friendly. At my local Humane Society most young dogs seem to get adopted quickly. Senior dogs or dogs with health problems have a hard time. I think anyone who wants to get a puppy should be willing to re-home as soon as possible instead of crating or banishing their dog because it's misbehaving (or you don't want them on your furniture). Certain dog breeds (e.g Dachshunds) are really easy to re-home because there are rescues dedicated to them. Seems like my local shelter is usually full of pits and lab mixes.
antisthenes 3y ago
I strongly second this post. I raised a puppy during COVID lockdowns while working remotely. Raising, training, and socializing a dog are great training wheels for later becoming a parent. It is a lot more forgiving, and the childhood phase for a dog is way, way shorter than it is for a child. If you can tough it out for 8-10 months, you'll also benefit from a loyal and well-behaved companion. There are also the additional benefits of befriending other dog owners, and the emotional support from a pet. Not sure if this will work the same for a cat, but it doesn't hurt to try!
codegeek 3y ago
As a father of 3 kids who has also raised puppies, I second this.
stevofolife 3y ago
Seems reasonable but not so friendly in practice. Not everyone can afford to raise a pet due to living conditions, financial reasons, and time and attention. Edit: "Afford" might not be the best term to use here since it relates to money mainly. "Capacity" might be slightly better.
- bokchoi 3y ago
  Not to be snide, but if you can't afford to raise a puppy, you probably can't afford to raise children.
  - stevofolife 3y ago
    I don't think that how life really works? Also not trying to be a snide either.
    - feoren 3y ago
      Which part is not how life works? Quick Google searches say that the average lifetime expense for a dog is $20k to $55k; for a child it's $240k. I'm sure these numbers could be argued endlessly, but the rough order of magnitude is right. And life really does work like "if you can't afford $X, then you definitely can't afford $10X".
      - randomdata 3y ago
        > I'm sure these numbers could be argued endlessly Indeed they could. Most painfully, the child figure includes things like the cost of keeping a larger house. Yet in reality a child couldn't care less how big or small of a house you have. Hell, early North American settlers used to live in tiny, one room log cabins and raised like 12 children in them just fine. If parents choose to live in more luxurious accommodations, good on them, but if we are being honest that is an adult cost to satisfy adult desires, not a child cost. The cost to support a child on what is actually necessary to support a child is only a tiny fraction of that. But let's say, for the sake of discussion, that the figure is irrefutable. A big difference is still that the child starts to contribute after the first few years. The outflow may be $240k, but there is an inflow to offset it. Unless you are an evil parent who locks the kids in their bedrooms until they turn 18, a net gain would not be unexpected. While there may be individual dogs out there that could have the same said about them, in the typical case the dog can't offer anything to contribute, even if the dog wanted nothing more.
switch007 3y ago
I've been told by multiple parents that I shouldn't have the audacity to suggest raising a puppy is ANYTHING like raising a child lol
- AndrewDucker 3y ago
  It's like a kid insofar as it takes a fair bit of effort, constrains your life, and you have to deal with another sentient being with their own likes, dislikes, and ability to make mess that you're responsible for. So you learn a lot about your own tolerance for dealing with all of that. But there's a lot more of all of that with kids, and obviously the details are vastly different.
- zwaps 3y ago
  It really isn’t
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  Parent who's had pets here: it's fine to suggest it as a weed-out approach - if you can't handle a puppy, you're going to have a hard time with a child. But I understand and share the frustration when "dog moms" and "cat dads" try to equate owning a pet with having a child.
smusamashah 3y ago
It could be just a pet than a puppy specifically. Just makes this advice a bit more broader/universal. Even then, pets probably don't get same respect / care in all cultures.
- pavel_lishin 3y ago
  Not all pets are equal; raising a kitten is not as labor-intensive as raising a puppy, and raising a goldfish will teach you very few skills tranferrable to raising children or other pets.
carabiner 3y ago
Yes, I lost my mind raising a kitten. SO MUCH ENERGY, running around at 2 am, chewing on random shit non-stop, $3k in emergency vet bills, finding overnight pet sitters for vacations, kitten-proofing my apartment (basically same as baby-proofing it). I can only imagine a baby would be 10x more effort and cost. Now I love him more than anything, but it steeled my decision to get a vasectomy.
- swozey 3y ago
  I only have 2 dogs now but I miss the absolute chaos of having 2 cats flying around the house. My dogs don't do ANYTHING all day long unless I prompt it. Like, they don't play with one another unless I start throwing the ball to them then they'll wrassle around and burn some energy. If I don't do that they literally will just sleep all day. I want a cat so bad i'm on so many cat subreddits. But I HATE litterboxes and I don't know if one will fight my dogs. Cats will zoom around all day long. Such fun chaotic energy. I can't imagine a baby I'll pass I'll keep cats and dogs
  - carabiner 3y ago
    I use the SpeedySift litter box which might be the most litter efficient solution that's cheap. The Litter Robot would be better but $$. A lot of innovation in automated litter boxes in the past 2 years though. Most of them cost around $500.
browningstreet 3y ago
Take your household/tribe and that puppy to dog training class, too.

austin-cheney 3y ago

There are lots of parent classes available for the economically depreciated and extremely young, especially in urban areas of the US. Even with teaching and all the guidance and preparation in the world some people are still astonishingly bad, like criminal bad. Much of that has to do with various mental health conditions, especially those passed from parent to child like Fragile X. There isn't a magic solution to gift people some credible amount of empathy, awareness, reduction of narcissism, basic handle on finances, nutrition, and so forth. These conversations tend to devolve into eugenics. The US used to feel very strongly one way about eugenics and then once the horrors of the holocaust were revealed those same people did a 180. The current sentiment, at least in the US, is just let people fail. That sounds harsh, but attempting to regulate reproductive rights is complicated. Yet, for some strange reason abortion is always an outlier to that reasoning on regulation.

andrei_says_ 3y ago

One important aspect of parenting is the massive amount of childhood trauma that the parents carry which trauma gets triggered in the presence of their children. Plus a lot of normalized abuse. So, teaching as in informing, is only a part of the equation. Healing is a very big part, too.

bell-cot 3y ago

Reaction: Who's this magical "we", who's supposed to teach parenting? Is it related to the magical "them" who run the world, from a child's PoV?

lapcat 3y ago
> Who's this magical "we", who's supposed to teach parenting? Schools? The same "magical" we who teach math, for example. I haven't been in school for a long time, but back in the day we had home ec and shop classes. I even took a typing class in high school, which turned out to be quite useful. We can teach kids practical life skills.
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  "teach math so effectively".
- r0ckarong 3y ago
  Schools are already notoriously failing children and their individual needs. Parenting decided by committee that needs to be comparable to retain budgets. Oh my word, sounds like hell.
  - lapcat 3y ago
    > Schools are already notoriously failing children and their individual needs. That's an overgeneralization. Schools vary widely in quality. Some schools have excellent results.
    - u32480932048 3y ago
      Source?
    - deleted 3y ago
      [deleted]
- ejb999 3y ago
  I doubt it - many schools can't even get 50% of the students proficient in math and english - I sure as heck don't want those schools teaching parenting skills as well.

readthenotes1 3y ago

I'm not sure who I would have trusted to teach me how to be a parent based on outcomes.

swozey 3y ago

As a near 40 year old with absolutely tons of friends and family with children divorced or potentially not divorced by now, who never ever wants to have one of his own, it absolutely blows my mind how little effort goes into preparing parents for a child. I cannot believe I have friends that had kids in their early 20s or teens. Going to grab a beer with my 38yo friend and he's got a 16 yo kid.. wild.

empath-nirvana 3y ago
The hospital gave us a 15 minute class on how to change diapers -- what else do you need to know? /s
- swozey 3y ago
  lmao I'm still at the "I'm not touching that baby, I'll drop and break it" phase.
anthonypasq 3y ago
I mean historically this is the role of parents and grandparents
lazide 3y ago
I think most of the effort goes into convincing them to even do it in the first place. Frankly, telling them how hard it is going to be and educating them on dealing with it just makes that first part that much harder.
asdff 3y ago
What is also sad about a lack of any standard or education is when this leads to generational perpetuation of poor habits. You might not even realize you are continuing generational traumas, you might just think this is how you were raised and this is fine, or maybe it even subliminally impacts you and you don't even consider your own biases and how they are affecting others.
oliwarner 3y ago
Funny thing is, I look at that with envy. I'm about to break into my 40s, with two young kids and I kinda wish we did it sooner. I'd have more energy for them for starters, but I also realise that I'm unlikely to enjoy grandchildren if they leave it as late as we did.

ajhurliman 3y ago

Yeah, and why don't we teach people how to vote for the correct candidate either? I think we need some sort of big, faceless institution to tell us how to live and interact with our kids, that would probably be the safest. /s

u32480932048 3y ago
I, for one, Trust The Institution™! The Most Glorious And Wonderful Headmaster is a doctor, lawyer, engineer, military general, and astronaut! As the symbolic parent of every child who attends, his picture hangs in every classroom. The Great Worshipful Headmaster has more parenting experience than all parents in the village put together! He has brought us Parent-Child Science from the gods, which he used to prove which religion is the best for kids, and has published many papers on how voting for the wrong party (or listening to Taylor Swift) is literally child abuse. I eagerly await their next communication!

criddell 3y ago

My wife and I took a parenting class before our first was born. I was surprised by how many people in the class already had at least one child and also how many people were there because of a court order. That said, the class was small. Maybe 10 people in all. For me, it was a worthwhile class.

randomdata 3y ago
> My wife and I took a parenting class before our first was born. Same here, and I also took a parenting class in high school. Further, once the child was born the teachings have continued, with many teachers offering additional teachings and support. I don't think I have seen anything else in life that has tried to be taught to the same extent. Not teaching how to parent must be a regional thing. Or is it is that we do teach it, but parents don't want to be taught?
RhysU 3y ago
In our parenting class of about 20 attendees, many years ago, there were a married pair of professional clowns. I have always wanted to know how that kid turned out.

kardianos 3y ago

We used to teach home economics which often included aspects of this. Or: just watch super nanny and bluey? Better then many, if not most, "parenting" resources.

303uru 3y ago

I have done so much reading, listening and attended classes on parenting. A few things I've learned: 1. You never stop learning, kids change and they change quickly. The parenting techniques that worked yesterday may fail today. 2. Recognizing and normalizing emotion without feeding it underlies a lot of parenting skills. 3. It's ok to make mistakes, it demonstrates to kids that they can also make mistakes. 4. You really need to unpack how you were parented, what worked, what didn't and any trauma (ideally before you have kids) because you will pass all of that down if you don't put thought into it. 5. Being a good parent is neither being a fascist dictator who beats their kid into submission, nor is it being your kids permissive best friend. Finding the balance is tricky.

timzaman 3y ago

The article implies parents do not naturally know, or can figure out, how to raise their kids. We should assume they instinctively know and can do it, like has been done for millions of years. We shouldn't make parents think they cannot do it. The way to put it much better is why we don't 'support' parenting better, or help them. I think this phrasing is important. Parenting is not something that needs to be 'taught'.

lapcat 3y ago
> We should assume they instinctively know and can do it, like has been done for millions of years. Why should we assume that? My own parents seemed to be generally clueless about parenting. I assume that our ancient ancestors were generally clueless too. Instinct is for animals, learning and science for humans.
- empath-nirvana 3y ago
  There's sort of a base level of parental instinct, but that gets you about as far as not letting them die.
  - lazide 3y ago
    Anecdotally? Only most of the time for most people.
    - empath-nirvana 3y ago
      I think that's true of pretty much every instinct, including fairly basic ones like self-preservation.
thimp 3y ago
This is a very naive perspective. As a parent for the last 20 years, I had no idea what I was doing and did a shitty job of the first decade. And to this day I see people making the same mistakes I did.

smusamashah 3y ago

It should be basic right or set mandatory by government like early education schools for kids.

EgregiousCube 3y ago

Non-paywalled: https://archive.is/j3i0N https://archive.is/j3i0N

kzz102 3y ago

What I learned as a parent and from interacting with other parents is that most parenting advises are useless because it's what "works for their kid". Most parent's style is coevolved with their kid through lots of try-and-error, and can hardly generalize. After reading a ton of books when I started as a parent, I now mostly just use common sense and my understanding of my child as a person.

randomdata 3y ago

We do teach people how to parent. I took a parenting course in high school. I also took another parenting course with my wife in the months leading up to having a child. And once I had children, others were more than happy to continue to help guide me through the process.

mbivert 3y ago

A tricky thing with raising kids is that, in the same situation, different kids may react differently: a "incidental" challenge will be detrimental here, but in the long run (decade/s) beneficial there. I'm not sure that this can be predicted easily. Furthermore, predicting the effect at scale, in the long run, feels impossible. An unregulated parenting education feels reasonable: let them make mistakes, and progressively grow from there, over a few generations. Let alone the difficulty of finding a common ground, especially on something involving strong emotional ties. It was probably easier in the past, when religions/states were stronger, because, for better or for worse, they provided a way to unify people.

Lockranor 3y ago

We do teach people parenting. The action is called parenting. I teach my kids how to parent by practicing it. I learned how to parent my children by observing my boomer parents, and doing the opposite in nearly every circumstance.

mitthrowaway2 3y ago
My parents did a fantastic job of raising me. However, at the time that I was a child being raised, I didn't take notes about the things they were doing that worked so well. I was just a kid, and had only the vaguest notion at the time that I might someday be a parent myself. I had no mind about me to study how I was being parented. Now I wish I had a more detailed memory. I have many memories of my childhood of course, but I don't remember the little things that my parents were doing "behind the scenes" to make it all work.
tivert 3y ago
> We do teach people parenting. The action is called parenting. Even the unpaywalled part of the article mentions that experience is too narrow and obviously inadequate. For instance: being parented is quite different from parenting; there's a long important period where the child will have no memory (or only vague disconnected memory) of being parented; and the experience of being parented gives insight into other parenting styles. > I teach my kids how to parent by practicing it. I learned how to parent my children by observing my boomer parents, and doing the opposite in nearly every circumstance. The opposite of one mistake isn't the correct action, it's usually a different mistake. Even though you gave zero details, I suspect "doing the opposite" will just set your kids up to repeat your parents' mistakes.

hiAndrewQuinn 3y ago

Probably because it wouldn't accomplish much: https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Reasons-Have-More-Kids/dp/0465028616 https://www.amazon.com/Selfish-Reasons-Have-More-Kids/dp/046... Ensure your kids are reasonably happy. It's not super expensive, they don't need a trip to Disney World every year or anything. Try not to let them make obvious, life altering mistakes. Past that, just enjoy the ride.

BenoitP 3y ago

Just like tech goes through cycles and everything old is new again (Corba to XML to JSON to gRPC), maybe morals are too on a cycle. In tech the typical time constant is for the young gen to burn and churn. In morals it is a few generations (as grandparents influence it) Maybe the cycle will bring back social shame again, which to me is at a historical low. And we'll again have manners manuals with content copied from 1924. Politeness, saying please and thank you, waiting for adults to finish before interrupting, doing house chores, no shouting, etc.

mlrtime 3y ago
There are places [In the US] where this is still practiced. Large families, polite and kindness. However, they are mostly also found in religious areas which turn some people away.

kakaz 3y ago

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MattPalmer1086 3y ago

I did the exact opposite when I had my son. There were so many books saying do this, don't do that. Everyone had words of wisdom for me, like "children love routine" and so on. Much advice seemed self serving to me, and much of it was contradictory. I decided to ignore all advice, read nothing, and just find our own way. Seems to be fine. My kid is happy, doing well and we aren't beating ourselves up over whether we're "doing it right".

tivert 3y ago

> Why Don't We Teach People How to Parent? Because our society is optimized to achieve short-term extraction of value on behalf of the ownership class, and it's an ideological imperative for it to squeeze ever harder.

amriksohata 3y ago

Generational trauma is a big thing because of the lack of teaching to parent with both genders now working kids no longer get the same amount of time. One thing I learnt is don't shout, don't smack, let them feel their emotions and co sleeping is way better than cry it out. Acknowledging them is so important rather than worrying you are spoiling them. Spoiling them is more giving them tablets and devices