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We need a term other than "recall" for minor software changes. The headline makes it sound like 2.2mm vehicles are going to be scheduling service appointments
by throwaway-blaze 3y ago
We need a term other than "recall" for minor software changes. The headline makes it sound like 2.2mm vehicles are going to be scheduling service appointments to fix this.
- nickthegreek 3y agoGood thing we are capable of reading beyond the headline. Recall once again is the correct word here. Every single time Tesla gets a recall (kinda often aint it?) there are people in HN comments who just want to fight over a word. There are federal safety standards and Tesla is not implementing them correctly, NHTSA issues a recall, full stop.
- notact 3y agoRegardless of what recall means today, in the past it meant a physical visit to the dealership. I believe there are many people (for example my mother) who would see the headline, not actually read the article, arrive at a mistaken conclusion that Tesla's must spend most of their time in the shop, and then spread that misinformation. So I agree, there should be a distinction between "Tesla owners required to visit a dealership" and "Tesla owners' cars receive updates while parked in their garage".
- nickthegreek 3y agoTesla owners will receive information (as required by law) about the issue and resolution. I am sorry that your mom decides to spread misinformation about articles that she did not read. That doesn't sound like an issue that the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration should take into account.
- gfosco 3y agoPerhaps it's time to fight over words. The definition of recall no longer works, and I believe it is constantly used specifically negatively against Tesla. It has an effect on most people, who aren't savvy, who don't read beyond the headline. (i've not participated in these alleged battles before)
- nickthegreek 3y ago>The National Highway Traffic Safety Administration (NHTSA) states that a safety recall is issued if either the manufacturer or the NHTSA determines that a vehicle or its equipment pose a safety risk or do not meet motor vehicle safety standards The NHTSA issues a recall. It is up to the car manufactures to implement a fix in whichever ways they want. Tesla even has their own page where they list these Recalls. Tesla has no problem with the word. Elon Musk, a noted individual that likes to say it like is, has not come out against the word either. https://www.tesla.com/support/annual-and-recall-service https://www.tesla.com/support/annual-and-recall-service How about instead of fighting the words, you fight the car companies that refuse to use their profits to correctly follow the established safety protocols.
- Veserv 3y agoYou are right. People seem to think a recall means “taking it in to get fixed”. But, a recall actually means the product has a dangerous defect that requires the manufacturer to promptly fix it for free otherwise the vehicle must be removed from the road. To better explain this we should use the term “dangerous defect” instead of “recall”. “Teslas contain another dangerous defect - affecting 2.2 million vehicles” does sound more accurate.
- peterisza 3y agoPorsche Taycans still have this "danGeRouS dEfEct" today, and Porsche doesn't fix them. Where's the article? Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161 https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161 Dangerous defect my ass...
- gfosco 3y agoYou think a font being a few tenths of a millimeter off spec is a "dangerous defect" ? Let me guess... not a fan of Elon.
- deely3 3y agoYes. Unreadable font/icon is dangerous during driving.
- belltaco 3y ago> Good thing we are capable of reading beyond the headline People don't read articles on tech forums like this so frequently that RTFA is a common meme. > Every single time Tesla gets a recall (kinda often aint it?) there are people in HN comments who just want to fight over a word You only think it's often because the other ones don't get reported on HN, creating the false impression. > According to the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration, Ford issued 55 safety recalls in 2023, down from 67 last year. The repair campaigns affected 5.9 million vehicles, down from 8.6 million in 2022, which put the automaker in second place for the total number of vehicles recalled. Honda’s 19 recalls affected 6.3 million cars. > Chrysler issued the second-highest number of recalls, at 45. Kia came in third for the total number of recalled cars, with more than 3 million affected by its 20 repair campaigns. https://www.kbb.com/car-news/in-2023-ford-again-led-nation-in-recalls/ https://www.kbb.com/car-news/in-2023-ford-again-led-nation-i... Anti EV publications like the NYP should definitely be called out for writing misleading headlines.
- nickthegreek 3y ago> You only think it's often because the other ones don't get reported on HN, creating the false impression. Tesla & Other car companies have way too many recalls. Someone else also failing does not negate the amount of recalls Tesla is doing or change the frequency at which they occur. I do agree that Tesla recalls gain wider internet spotlight. I believe that is largely due to Musk himself is attracted to the spotlight. I couldn’t name you the name of ceo of another car company, and tbh I think that is a good thing. It is widely known that scrutiny increases the more you of a public figure you are. Especially so if you are a divisive one. The headline is not misleading, it is accurate.
- bdcravens 3y agoPerhaps, but it's still important to draw attention to mistakes, for transparency and accountability. Additionally, other "recalls" for other car companies may similarly be minor software changes. The only distinguishing factor with Tesla is OTA deployment.
- TheGlav 3y agoSure. When was the last time that a software mistake for Windows or Mac OSX or their Phone made people think they had to take their computer to the computer shop for a session with a technician?
- nickthegreek 3y agoWhen was the last time those things weighted over 2tons and were barreling down public roads? How is that even slightly relevant.
- bdcravens 3y agoA Tesla is a car, not a piece of personal electronics. Different safety standards.
- wvenable 3y ago> The only distinguishing factor with Tesla is OTA deployment. Yet that's the most important factor when calling it a "recall".
- bdcravens 3y agoTesla themselves calls defects which can be fixed via OTA updates recalls. https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-firmware-prevent-autosteer-misuse https://www.tesla.com/support/vehicle-firmware-prevent-autos...
- bumby 3y agoI don't think this is the right way to think about the problem. Recalls could probably be improved by classification based on risk, but not on "inconvenience to the consumer."
- callalex 3y agoThe easiest way to stay out of the news for recalls is to not sell a defective product. If these software recalls are so easy to fix, why isn’t Tesla fixing them before being forced to?
- seanmcdirmid 3y agoThey aren’t allowed to change the font size without issuing a formal recall. Even if they initiate the change on their own, if it’s safety related, they have to file for a recall.
- peterisza 3y agoTesla wasn't actually being forced. In the past, other automakers like Ford, GM, Porsche and Kia/Hyundai ran into the exact same problem. They just filed an inconsequential non-compliance petition to NHTSA because this issue is so minor and it would have been too expensive to fix --- for them. Source: https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161 https://youtu.be/480yxR_kmIg?si=dThdJD2_QceCyF_E&t=161
- quonn 3y agoStrangely the number of Tesla recalls is lower than a dozen other famous brands and reported all the time. So it seems like the number of defects has little influence on the reporting.
- wvenable 3y agoYeah the word "recall" means "a public call by a manufacturer for the return of a product that may be defective or contaminated" or more plainly "a call to return". If you don't have to return the item somewhere then it isn't a "recall" by definition. An over-the-air software update is not a "recall". The terminology has to change. A "recall" is a typically an inconvenient event for the owners of a product -- this ain't that.
- szundi 3y agoThis is since Elon told something nice about DeSantis
- nickthegreek 3y agoThat is not what the word recall means. That is what you want it to mean. The governing body here is the NHTSA, here is their recall page where the term is defined. https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls https://www.nhtsa.gov/recalls >A recall is issued when a manufacturer or NHTSA determines that a vehicle, equipment, car seat, or tire creates an unreasonable safety risk or fails to meet minimum safety standards. Most decisions to conduct a recall and remedy a safety defect are made voluntarily by manufacturers prior to any involvement by NHTSA. >Manufacturers are required to fix the problem by repairing it, replacing it, offering a refund, or in rare cases repurchasing the vehicle.
- wvenable 3y agoRight because historically all of those things required you returning the vehicle somewhere to have that work done. That's why the NHTSA called it a "recall" in the first place. The idea that the manufacturer can fix a minor safety issue without the owner of the vehicle having to do anything is relatively new. The terminology is too broad now. It wasn't before, but it is now, because technology has changed.
- jeff_tyrrill 3y ago> That is not what the word recall means. That is what you want it to mean. No, it is the plain dictionary meaning of "recall"[1] (see sense #7, which states the "return of (a faulty product)". Words in headlines should be the plain dictionary meaning, not a legal term of art for specialists. [1] https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recall https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/recall
- pseudocomposer 3y agoWe've had a century or so of "vehicle recall" meaning a hardware problem. And there is no precedent in the software industry for calling OTA updates "recalls" rather than "updates." I, frankly, dislike Musk and Tesla. But this reeks of yellow journalism. Calling this something like a "[critical|federally-mandated|regulatory] safety update" would better describe what's happening to consumers, and also prevent them from taking future hardware recalls less seriously. If the NHTSA simply chose and adopted such a term officially, the US's existing executive structures like the FCC and FTC, and/or libel/defamation court cases, could solve this problem. As it stands, not differentiating and calling everything a "recall" really makes the NHTSA seem to be "in the way" rather than "making things safer," at least to me, so the agency stands to benefit by making such a choice as well as consumers and the industry.
- buffington 3y agoA recall protects a company like Tesla from lawsuits. In this case, someone could have determined that the reason their car crashed was because an icon wasn't big enough, discovered that Tesla wasn't adhering to safety standards, and filed a pretty solid lawsuit. The recall says "look, we found a problem, we'll fix it, and now that we made a reasonable effort to let everyone know, we're off the hook and protected by the government for having done so officially."