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One of the weirdest and most interesting things I've ever seen was how this crazy book created gang violence by illustrating dystopian gang violence...And I can

by pookha 3y ago

One of the weirdest and most interesting things I've ever seen was how this crazy book created gang violence by illustrating dystopian gang violence...And I can guarantee you that some of the youth ("hooligans") in England that were committing Droog gang violence -- inspired by this book -- have reformed as elderly adults. It's not unrealistic. When you remove people out of cults and gangs and they begin to self-reflect -- away from their tribe -- their morals and behavior reintegrate with society at large...Not at all unrealistic as the book showed.

Spivak 3y ago
This right here is the tension between "my work doesn't support <bad thing> the whole point is showing it's bad" while simultaneously portraying the bad thing in a positive light while the narrative does the condemning. The problem with demonizing things is that demons are cool. If you want your condemnation to be effective in fiction you have to make the characters doing it pathetic miserable losers. You can even have the narrative support them, they win in the end, and set it up so they were right and people will still come away with that they're bad.
- almatabata 3y ago
  It is always fascinating how sometimes authors think they are creating a loser in their work but somehow the public still likes the character despite the flaws. Reminds me of the case of Rorschach in Watchmen (https://screenrant.com/alan-moore-on-rorschach-fans-watchmen/ https://screenrant.com/alan-moore-on-rorschach-fans-watchmen...).
- DoItToMe81 3y ago
  WTF, no. Media absolutely shouldn't be lowered to children's cartoons for adults. That's absurd. And nobody in the world who isn't already completely insane finds gang rape 'cool', nor does this book or movie portray it positively.
  - Spivak 3y ago
    You say lowered, I say writing in such a way that communicates what the author actually intends to communicate. If what you're trying to say doesn't land among your intended audience that's a you problem. Having read the book and seen the movie adaptation I have to disagree. Alex is charismatic, popular, a feared leader, independent, and rebellious. The brutal rape scene while singing makes him look like an absolute badass (a la the Joker) existing well beyond the reach of society's rules and importantly, makes him look powerful. Ultraviolence sounds like an achievement in DOOM. When he's caught it's framed as a betrayal not "we finally got the bad guy." Then they make him sympathetic through the torture and weakening him and making him unable to defend himself to the point of being driven to suicide. It's harrowing, not the cathartic comeuppance of a terrible man. And then the police apologize, let him go and arrest the man he brutally beat to near death. The narrative considers Alex to be horrible but the view as seen by the camera/reader thinks he's hot shit and a tragic victim of a dystopian society. As another example, when you watch Dexter you're rooting for Dexter and the show makes him cool despite him ya know being a killer. In a lot of ways I think it's actually a hallmark of media literacy that readers/viewers largely ignore the narrative as a source of moral judgment because it's fiction and we like compelling villains and instead finds it in how the characters are actually portrayed.
IshKebab 3y ago
Are you really suggesting that real gang violence was caused by a novel?
- tacoooooooo 3y ago
  i think pookha is saying their reformation was possibly inspired by the book
- Apocryphon 3y ago
  There's some precedence of pop culture has influenced criminal behavior. But it's usually superficial, by groups that were already engaged in the behavior. Mafia media from The Godfather onwards were reportedly popular with the mob and maybe influenced them to imitate the fashions and manner of speaking depicted on screen (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/movies/godfather-mafia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/movies/godfather-mafia.ht...). Hong Kong Triads youth did the same after John Woo's films with the Mark Gor Lau. Wall Street, and probably other financial thrillers to The Wolf of Wall Street and further also influenced brokers' styles, and sometimes behavior (https://slate.com/culture/2007/09/how-wall-street-s-gordon-gekko-inspired-a-generation-of-imitators.html https://slate.com/culture/2007/09/how-wall-street-s-gordon-g...). You also hear examples of "suburban father tries to make meth because of Breaking Bad" but those are one-off individuals who are probably not of sound judgment.
- miles 3y ago
  The article itself does much more than merely suggest it: > Kubrick himself, in response to a series of murder trials where the defendants explicitly mentioned his work, requested the withdrawal of A Clockwork Orange in the United Kingdom, where it could not be seen again until the director’s death in 1999.
  - IshKebab 3y ago
    That's silly. Just because a murderer mentions a book about murder doesn't mean it made them into a murderer. It just means murderers like books about murder.
stickfigure 3y ago
I think the key element there is "as elderly adults". I haven't read the book (tried, the Nadsat took effort) but the movie is one of my favorites. If the ending had Alex popping up from his bed shouting "I want to be good!" I would have filed the movie away as Spielbergian feelgood schlock (see also: AI). I do think people change, but it happens slowly, not quickly. Kubrick's ending still leaves us with the ability to imagine an older, wiser, regretful Alex. But you can't credibly force that into his youth, and the movie is already 2 hours 15 mins.
- blindriver 3y ago
  He didn’t wake up and decided he wanted to be good. He just decided at one point that his current lifestyle was boring and he wanted a change. He didn’t turn into a good guy, he just decided to go a different way. Thats the point is that he made the choice himself.

by pookha 3y ago

Spivak 3y ago

This right here is the tension between "my work doesn't support <bad thing> the whole point is showing it's bad" while simultaneously portraying the bad thing in a positive light while the narrative does the condemning. The problem with demonizing things is that demons are cool. If you want your condemnation to be effective in fiction you have to make the characters doing it pathetic miserable losers. You can even have the narrative support them, they win in the end, and set it up so they were right and people will still come away with that they're bad.

almatabata 3y ago
It is always fascinating how sometimes authors think they are creating a loser in their work but somehow the public still likes the character despite the flaws. Reminds me of the case of Rorschach in Watchmen (https://screenrant.com/alan-moore-on-rorschach-fans-watchmen/ https://screenrant.com/alan-moore-on-rorschach-fans-watchmen...).
DoItToMe81 3y ago
WTF, no. Media absolutely shouldn't be lowered to children's cartoons for adults. That's absurd. And nobody in the world who isn't already completely insane finds gang rape 'cool', nor does this book or movie portray it positively.
- Spivak 3y ago
  You say lowered, I say writing in such a way that communicates what the author actually intends to communicate. If what you're trying to say doesn't land among your intended audience that's a you problem. Having read the book and seen the movie adaptation I have to disagree. Alex is charismatic, popular, a feared leader, independent, and rebellious. The brutal rape scene while singing makes him look like an absolute badass (a la the Joker) existing well beyond the reach of society's rules and importantly, makes him look powerful. Ultraviolence sounds like an achievement in DOOM. When he's caught it's framed as a betrayal not "we finally got the bad guy." Then they make him sympathetic through the torture and weakening him and making him unable to defend himself to the point of being driven to suicide. It's harrowing, not the cathartic comeuppance of a terrible man. And then the police apologize, let him go and arrest the man he brutally beat to near death. The narrative considers Alex to be horrible but the view as seen by the camera/reader thinks he's hot shit and a tragic victim of a dystopian society. As another example, when you watch Dexter you're rooting for Dexter and the show makes him cool despite him ya know being a killer. In a lot of ways I think it's actually a hallmark of media literacy that readers/viewers largely ignore the narrative as a source of moral judgment because it's fiction and we like compelling villains and instead finds it in how the characters are actually portrayed.

IshKebab 3y ago

Are you really suggesting that real gang violence was caused by a novel?

tacoooooooo 3y ago
i think pookha is saying their reformation was possibly inspired by the book
Apocryphon 3y ago
There's some precedence of pop culture has influenced criminal behavior. But it's usually superficial, by groups that were already engaged in the behavior. Mafia media from The Godfather onwards were reportedly popular with the mob and maybe influenced them to imitate the fashions and manner of speaking depicted on screen (https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/movies/godfather-mafia.html https://www.nytimes.com/2022/03/09/movies/godfather-mafia.ht...). Hong Kong Triads youth did the same after John Woo's films with the Mark Gor Lau. Wall Street, and probably other financial thrillers to The Wolf of Wall Street and further also influenced brokers' styles, and sometimes behavior (https://slate.com/culture/2007/09/how-wall-street-s-gordon-gekko-inspired-a-generation-of-imitators.html https://slate.com/culture/2007/09/how-wall-street-s-gordon-g...). You also hear examples of "suburban father tries to make meth because of Breaking Bad" but those are one-off individuals who are probably not of sound judgment.
miles 3y ago
The article itself does much more than merely suggest it: > Kubrick himself, in response to a series of murder trials where the defendants explicitly mentioned his work, requested the withdrawal of A Clockwork Orange in the United Kingdom, where it could not be seen again until the director’s death in 1999.
- IshKebab 3y ago
  That's silly. Just because a murderer mentions a book about murder doesn't mean it made them into a murderer. It just means murderers like books about murder.

stickfigure 3y ago

I think the key element there is "as elderly adults". I haven't read the book (tried, the Nadsat took effort) but the movie is one of my favorites. If the ending had Alex popping up from his bed shouting "I want to be good!" I would have filed the movie away as Spielbergian feelgood schlock (see also: AI). I do think people change, but it happens slowly, not quickly. Kubrick's ending still leaves us with the ability to imagine an older, wiser, regretful Alex. But you can't credibly force that into his youth, and the movie is already 2 hours 15 mins.

blindriver 3y ago
He didn’t wake up and decided he wanted to be good. He just decided at one point that his current lifestyle was boring and he wanted a change. He didn’t turn into a good guy, he just decided to go a different way. Thats the point is that he made the choice himself.