5 ms·

I live in a Scandinavian country. Our welfare system is structured such that people are expected to withdraw from the tax pool during the beginning and end of l

I live in a Scandinavian country. Our welfare system is structured such that people are expected to withdraw from the tax pool during the beginning and end of life, and contribute to the pool in between. Adult immigrants will benefit less from the system than locals over their lifetime, but may end up contributing as much. Adult immigrants with advanced degrees who come to work here for a few years and then move out are penalized quite severely by the tax system, to the point where I think it makes very little sense to do that. On my locally quite high $80k annual income (STEM PhD, 40yo), my employer pays an additional $36k in taxes and pension. Then I pay $22k in income taxes and 25% VAT on everything I buy. Why would anyone with an advanced degree from China, India or the U.S. come to work here? Lowering the taxes for a couple of years following immigration, possibly proportionally to level of education, would encourage immigration and would be ethically defensible.

dr_dshiv 3y ago
It works. After 6 years, I’m stuck in the Netherlands with a 50% tax rate and I love it.
fragmede 3y ago
For love, or if they have autistic children and a way to emigrate.
deleted 3y ago
[deleted]
suslik 3y ago
I did that (moved to a Scandinavian country), and it was an undeniably poor choice from a financial perspective - or rather a chain of poor choices that looked correct at the time. Paying almost 40% of my income that is rather low by global standards (although very high locally), while not planning to have children and never even once going to a doctor - none of this made any sense in the long run. I am the same age as yourself, and given the economic situation early retirement appears to be less and less feasible.
georgeecollins 3y ago
>> locally quite high $80k annual income (STEM PhD, 40yo) I love Europe, both for the lifestyle and the safety net. But the salaries are kind of shocking for an American.
- postepowanieadm 3y ago
  Healthcare, education and retirement/social security included.
  - TheAlchemist 3y ago
    And no tipping ! It's hard to really compare between the countries, but I feel like one should almost x2 an EU salary, to get an US equivalent, in terms of quality of life offered.
  - cassepipe 3y ago
    Plus, OP makes 6000 euros a month which really is not nothing.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      6000 a month is huge by EU standards. Most of EU tech workers make way less than that. In Austria you can expect to take home about 3k a month. More is a rare outlier. Outside of big-tech and FAANGS, pay in EU is super weak compared to US, like orders of magnitude.
    - ponector 3y ago
      It is huge, but still peanuts considering cost of living and prices for housing. Many people just gave up to the dream of real estate ownership. Rent till the death. With 6000 monthly how many years they need to save money for down payment for small apartment? Buying a house is not an option at all for working people.
      - dukeyukey 3y ago
        I don't think that's true. America's home ownership hovers around 65% - in Norway it's 80%; Swedeon 65%; Denmark 59%; Iceland 73%. If anything, a higher percentage of Nordic citizens own houses than Americans.
tikkabhuna 3y ago
This may be out of date now, but friends in Singapore told me about their system and it sounded like a good idea. They have a low base tax rate but permanent residents and citizens have to pay ~20% into a fund. They could withdraw from it to buy housing or for a pension. It could also be withdrawn if you leave Singapore. It feels like that’s what we need in Europe.
patall 3y ago
At the very least Sweden has that in place: you can become income tax exempt for the first 5? years as an expert or similar specialist.
badcppdev 3y ago
For me it's the question about what's inside my house and what's outside on the street. I'd like to pay more tax at the cost of having less inside my house if I know that the street outside is free of rubbish and crime with a suburban library within working distance, etc, etc, etc. I want my society to be nice because that's where I live. And it's not about the exact amount I add or withdraw from the communal tax pool.

dr_dshiv 3y ago

It works. After 6 years, I’m stuck in the Netherlands with a 50% tax rate and I love it.

fragmede 3y ago

For love, or if they have autistic children and a way to emigrate.

deleted 3y ago

[deleted]

suslik 3y ago

I did that (moved to a Scandinavian country), and it was an undeniably poor choice from a financial perspective - or rather a chain of poor choices that looked correct at the time. Paying almost 40% of my income that is rather low by global standards (although very high locally), while not planning to have children and never even once going to a doctor - none of this made any sense in the long run. I am the same age as yourself, and given the economic situation early retirement appears to be less and less feasible.

georgeecollins 3y ago

>> locally quite high $80k annual income (STEM PhD, 40yo) I love Europe, both for the lifestyle and the safety net. But the salaries are kind of shocking for an American.

postepowanieadm 3y ago
Healthcare, education and retirement/social security included.
- TheAlchemist 3y ago
  And no tipping ! It's hard to really compare between the countries, but I feel like one should almost x2 an EU salary, to get an US equivalent, in terms of quality of life offered.
- cassepipe 3y ago
  Plus, OP makes 6000 euros a month which really is not nothing.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    6000 a month is huge by EU standards. Most of EU tech workers make way less than that. In Austria you can expect to take home about 3k a month. More is a rare outlier. Outside of big-tech and FAANGS, pay in EU is super weak compared to US, like orders of magnitude.
  - ponector 3y ago
    It is huge, but still peanuts considering cost of living and prices for housing. Many people just gave up to the dream of real estate ownership. Rent till the death. With 6000 monthly how many years they need to save money for down payment for small apartment? Buying a house is not an option at all for working people.
    - dukeyukey 3y ago
      I don't think that's true. America's home ownership hovers around 65% - in Norway it's 80%; Swedeon 65%; Denmark 59%; Iceland 73%. If anything, a higher percentage of Nordic citizens own houses than Americans.

tikkabhuna 3y ago

This may be out of date now, but friends in Singapore told me about their system and it sounded like a good idea. They have a low base tax rate but permanent residents and citizens have to pay ~20% into a fund. They could withdraw from it to buy housing or for a pension. It could also be withdrawn if you leave Singapore. It feels like that’s what we need in Europe.

patall 3y ago

At the very least Sweden has that in place: you can become income tax exempt for the first 5? years as an expert or similar specialist.

badcppdev 3y ago

For me it's the question about what's inside my house and what's outside on the street. I'd like to pay more tax at the cost of having less inside my house if I know that the street outside is free of rubbish and crime with a suburban library within working distance, etc, etc, etc. I want my society to be nice because that's where I live. And it's not about the exact amount I add or withdraw from the communal tax pool.