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How about this: Instead of buying overpriced buggy new cars with SW developed by "moove fast, break things" bootcamp web-devs, I keep my 2000's car which has bu

How about this: Instead of buying overpriced buggy new cars with SW developed by "moove fast, break things" bootcamp web-devs, I keep my 2000's car which has buttons and knobs and much less software on it, and who's only software on it has been developed by grumpy old EEs with grey beards, and is only there just for controlling the engine and safety ECUs instead of fucking with touchscreens to open the bloody windows. How about that?

maxwell 3y ago
Unsustainable. Cars don't hold up for very long. The future is electric hot rods. If cars are computers now then I'll build my own thanks.
LiquidPolymer 3y ago
I dread the day I have to give up my 04 Outback. Love the layout of the controls and the easy adjustments. More and more I’ve been doing my own repairs which gives me great satisfaction. This last Monday I changed out the alternator. The vehicle still gives me great pleasure to drive.
mvkel 3y ago
Would you consider yourself an early adopter? Based on this comment, I'm going to assume not. Cars have been around for over a century, so you'd be forgiven for not seeing them through a lens of innovation. But modern EVs have played "catch up" in a lot of ways, bringing UX heuristics that are two plus decades old into the dashboard. Like anything new, this necessitates a more forgiving mindset. The issue here is the folks with your mentality are also the ones charged with incorporating these heuristics into cars. Thats a fundamental issue, because they are fundamentally different ways of looking at the world. The world is asking car companies to become tech companies, without any staff changes. Not a recipe for success.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >The world is asking car companies to become tech companies No, the world isn't. Musk started a fad of replacing the hardware that worked in cars with software to save costs and look "futuristic" on Twitter, and now everyone is racing to emulate the shitty parts of Tesla's approach, but EVs don't need to be this annoying and user hostile. Just give me something with a battery and a motor who's only controlled by switches and knobs and the meatbag between the seat and steering wheel, no fancy software, no autopilot, no touchscreens. Basically give me a 2000's car that's an EV and not a smartphone trying to be a car.
  - giantg2 3y ago
    I'd accept software that helped with efficiency and battery longevity. It's not all bad. But those pieces of software are much more limited that what is packed in today. They reason they won't build vehicles that you or I want is because people aren't willing to pay the $50k+ prices for an EV that has the equivalent options as a basic $35k work truck.
    - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
      >I'd accept software that helped with efficiency and battery longevity. The embedded software doing that quietly in the background is not the problem. It's the user facing software that thinks it can replace the hardware UX that has already worked for decades that's the problem.
      - giantg2 3y ago
        I mean, some of the embedded stuff is iffy too. I mostly agree though. For example, the Active Fuel Management in GM V8s requires the TCC to slip around 10-15 RPM all the time, so that if it goes into 4 cylinder mode the vibrations won't transfer through the drive train. Not a recipe for a long transmission life.
  - m_fayer 3y ago
    The car we all want comes from a school of product design that respects both the machine it's building and the user of that machine. Specifically, it respects that user's time, money, taste, judgment, autonomy, and capability. I can't think of any mainstream consumer brands that practice this school of product design - and I hope there isn't something irreparably structural at play right now that would prevent such a brand from emerging.
  - mvkel 3y ago
    So you're saying Musk, all by himself, tricked the world into making Tesla the best selling car of 2023, and tricked all the other auto manufacturers into copying him? Damn, he's smarter than I thought.
- giantg2 3y ago
  Even the people who have been around a long time and seen innovation can be pessimistic about something new. Plenty of car guys were pessimistic about reduced compression, 80mph speedometers, restricted intakes, and air injection tech in the late 70s-80s. They were right - it did little to nothing on economy, safety, and smog (cats were more effective). It's not a leap to say that touchscreens are garage in a vehicle for most functions. Out of sll my comments ever made on here, that one is likely to age the best. "The world is asking car companies to become tech companies, without any staff changes." There have been huge shifts in staff over the years.
- dylan604 3y ago
  > The world is asking car companies to become tech companies, Uh, we are? I must have missed a memo. This is absolutely not anything I want, nor need. This sounds like a pundit trying to make excuses while evangelizing looking for new converts
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
  That’s a lot of words to say that you either own a Tesla or really really want to. Your whole comment is absolutely drenched with elitism. “The only reason you don’t agree with me is because you can’t see the future, old man! Did you know that cars have actually been around for a while?” Give me a break. Modern EVs have blindly copy and pasted UX mechanics from smartphones without first looking at things from a first-principles perspective to determine what a good car user experience even is. It plainly, without argument, is not a Tesla, or anything like it. Having a touch screen interface that frequently changes with software updates intended to be used by someone ACTIVELY DRIVING A CAR is not the way to go. If anything, the opposite, as it’s actively unsafe. If you think that the world is asking for this, you are very obviously living in a bubble. As someone that doesn’t have many computer nerds in my social circle, people at best see this stuff as a flashy passing interest. Give people CarPlay / Android Auto so they can “use their GPS” and be done with it. I say all of this as someone in their late 20s who owns an EV and who is generally an early adopter. So the answer isn’t another lecture about how my feeble mind can’t understand the innovative concept of “what if we put a crappier iPad in your car?”
  - mvkel 3y ago
    Ironically, my old 2016 Honda Pilot had no knobs to speak of. It was infuriating to lower the volume when it randomly decided to crank it to full blast. All Teslas have a dedicated volume/mute knob. Who's following who?
- nix0n 3y ago
  > UX heuristics that are two plus decades old All the UX rules I know of would encourage keeping the physical knobs and switches instead of replacing them with touchscreens. Maybe I missed a memo in the 2000s?
- bluGill 3y ago
  Computers have been running cars since the mid 1980s. Car companies have been computer companies for decades by now. the Silicon Valley "move fast and break things" is newer though.
prometheus76 3y ago
Happy owner of a 1973 chevy pickup checking in. My brother cannot figure out why I like driving an old truck, but if something goes wrong with it, after a search on youtube and a trip to the parts store, I can fix almost anything for under $500. He says if you drive a newer car, you don't have to fix things. However, his BMW X5 then needed a new transmission. Six months and $18,000 later, he doesn't ask me why I drive an old truck anymore.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago
  >However, his BMW X5 then needed a new transmission. New-age German cars are very accurate and precise, as in only designed to last as long as the lease. Any day longer than that means lost revenue for services and dealerships. A far cray from the German cars of the 80's. Buying a new German car today means you're either minted or masochistic with your finances.
  - gambiting 3y ago
    There was a stat on this released by BMW recently - something stupid like 90%(!!!!) of all owners of new BMWs don't keep them longer than 3 years. So in a way, if you were running BMW engineering division.....yeah, why make them last any longer than that. Clearly the people who actually make you money by buying new cars don't give a crap about longevity - Plastic oil pans it is.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      As anyone in automotive should know: you make them last longer because the people who buy a new car every 3 years can only afford to do this because there is a lot of trade in value left in the car. If the car was dead and worthless in 3 years they would be forced to buy much cheaper cars.
    - ytdytvhxgydvhh 3y ago
      That’s because BMW (and their dealers) want to sell every car twice. Once new and then again in a few years as a certified pre-owned car that has retained quite a bit of value. Makes them more money than just selling new cars.
ojosilva 3y ago
I'd love instead a car that has software I can fully customize. Not the life threatening stuff I can shoot myself in the foot with, but all the dashboards, button placement, sensor logic,entertainment system, live APIs, downloadable logs etc. That's where most of the annoying bugs are anyway. An "open source" car would be a dream come true.
- fragmede 3y ago
  The Rally Fighter by Local Motors would be right up your alley!
vdaea 3y ago
At least in Europe the state won't let you do that because of ULEZ regulations
kakaz 3y ago
[dead]

maxwell 3y ago

Unsustainable. Cars don't hold up for very long. The future is electric hot rods. If cars are computers now then I'll build my own thanks.

LiquidPolymer 3y ago

I dread the day I have to give up my 04 Outback. Love the layout of the controls and the easy adjustments. More and more I’ve been doing my own repairs which gives me great satisfaction. This last Monday I changed out the alternator. The vehicle still gives me great pleasure to drive.

mvkel 3y ago

Would you consider yourself an early adopter? Based on this comment, I'm going to assume not. Cars have been around for over a century, so you'd be forgiven for not seeing them through a lens of innovation. But modern EVs have played "catch up" in a lot of ways, bringing UX heuristics that are two plus decades old into the dashboard. Like anything new, this necessitates a more forgiving mindset. The issue here is the folks with your mentality are also the ones charged with incorporating these heuristics into cars. Thats a fundamental issue, because they are fundamentally different ways of looking at the world. The world is asking car companies to become tech companies, without any staff changes. Not a recipe for success.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>The world is asking car companies to become tech companies No, the world isn't. Musk started a fad of replacing the hardware that worked in cars with software to save costs and look "futuristic" on Twitter, and now everyone is racing to emulate the shitty parts of Tesla's approach, but EVs don't need to be this annoying and user hostile. Just give me something with a battery and a motor who's only controlled by switches and knobs and the meatbag between the seat and steering wheel, no fancy software, no autopilot, no touchscreens. Basically give me a 2000's car that's an EV and not a smartphone trying to be a car.
- giantg2 3y ago
  I'd accept software that helped with efficiency and battery longevity. It's not all bad. But those pieces of software are much more limited that what is packed in today. They reason they won't build vehicles that you or I want is because people aren't willing to pay the $50k+ prices for an EV that has the equivalent options as a basic $35k work truck.
  - FirmwareBurner 3y ago
    >I'd accept software that helped with efficiency and battery longevity. The embedded software doing that quietly in the background is not the problem. It's the user facing software that thinks it can replace the hardware UX that has already worked for decades that's the problem.
    - giantg2 3y ago
      I mean, some of the embedded stuff is iffy too. I mostly agree though. For example, the Active Fuel Management in GM V8s requires the TCC to slip around 10-15 RPM all the time, so that if it goes into 4 cylinder mode the vibrations won't transfer through the drive train. Not a recipe for a long transmission life.
- m_fayer 3y ago
  The car we all want comes from a school of product design that respects both the machine it's building and the user of that machine. Specifically, it respects that user's time, money, taste, judgment, autonomy, and capability. I can't think of any mainstream consumer brands that practice this school of product design - and I hope there isn't something irreparably structural at play right now that would prevent such a brand from emerging.
- mvkel 3y ago
  So you're saying Musk, all by himself, tricked the world into making Tesla the best selling car of 2023, and tricked all the other auto manufacturers into copying him? Damn, he's smarter than I thought.
giantg2 3y ago
Even the people who have been around a long time and seen innovation can be pessimistic about something new. Plenty of car guys were pessimistic about reduced compression, 80mph speedometers, restricted intakes, and air injection tech in the late 70s-80s. They were right - it did little to nothing on economy, safety, and smog (cats were more effective). It's not a leap to say that touchscreens are garage in a vehicle for most functions. Out of sll my comments ever made on here, that one is likely to age the best. "The world is asking car companies to become tech companies, without any staff changes." There have been huge shifts in staff over the years.
dylan604 3y ago
> The world is asking car companies to become tech companies, Uh, we are? I must have missed a memo. This is absolutely not anything I want, nor need. This sounds like a pundit trying to make excuses while evangelizing looking for new converts
cqqxo4zV46cp 3y ago
That’s a lot of words to say that you either own a Tesla or really really want to. Your whole comment is absolutely drenched with elitism. “The only reason you don’t agree with me is because you can’t see the future, old man! Did you know that cars have actually been around for a while?” Give me a break. Modern EVs have blindly copy and pasted UX mechanics from smartphones without first looking at things from a first-principles perspective to determine what a good car user experience even is. It plainly, without argument, is not a Tesla, or anything like it. Having a touch screen interface that frequently changes with software updates intended to be used by someone ACTIVELY DRIVING A CAR is not the way to go. If anything, the opposite, as it’s actively unsafe. If you think that the world is asking for this, you are very obviously living in a bubble. As someone that doesn’t have many computer nerds in my social circle, people at best see this stuff as a flashy passing interest. Give people CarPlay / Android Auto so they can “use their GPS” and be done with it. I say all of this as someone in their late 20s who owns an EV and who is generally an early adopter. So the answer isn’t another lecture about how my feeble mind can’t understand the innovative concept of “what if we put a crappier iPad in your car?”
- mvkel 3y ago
  Ironically, my old 2016 Honda Pilot had no knobs to speak of. It was infuriating to lower the volume when it randomly decided to crank it to full blast. All Teslas have a dedicated volume/mute knob. Who's following who?
nix0n 3y ago
> UX heuristics that are two plus decades old All the UX rules I know of would encourage keeping the physical knobs and switches instead of replacing them with touchscreens. Maybe I missed a memo in the 2000s?
bluGill 3y ago
Computers have been running cars since the mid 1980s. Car companies have been computer companies for decades by now. the Silicon Valley "move fast and break things" is newer though.

prometheus76 3y ago

Happy owner of a 1973 chevy pickup checking in. My brother cannot figure out why I like driving an old truck, but if something goes wrong with it, after a search on youtube and a trip to the parts store, I can fix almost anything for under $500. He says if you drive a newer car, you don't have to fix things. However, his BMW X5 then needed a new transmission. Six months and $18,000 later, he doesn't ask me why I drive an old truck anymore.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>However, his BMW X5 then needed a new transmission. New-age German cars are very accurate and precise, as in only designed to last as long as the lease. Any day longer than that means lost revenue for services and dealerships. A far cray from the German cars of the 80's. Buying a new German car today means you're either minted or masochistic with your finances.
- gambiting 3y ago
  There was a stat on this released by BMW recently - something stupid like 90%(!!!!) of all owners of new BMWs don't keep them longer than 3 years. So in a way, if you were running BMW engineering division.....yeah, why make them last any longer than that. Clearly the people who actually make you money by buying new cars don't give a crap about longevity - Plastic oil pans it is.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    As anyone in automotive should know: you make them last longer because the people who buy a new car every 3 years can only afford to do this because there is a lot of trade in value left in the car. If the car was dead and worthless in 3 years they would be forced to buy much cheaper cars.
  - ytdytvhxgydvhh 3y ago
    That’s because BMW (and their dealers) want to sell every car twice. Once new and then again in a few years as a certified pre-owned car that has retained quite a bit of value. Makes them more money than just selling new cars.

ojosilva 3y ago

I'd love instead a car that has software I can fully customize. Not the life threatening stuff I can shoot myself in the foot with, but all the dashboards, button placement, sensor logic,entertainment system, live APIs, downloadable logs etc. That's where most of the annoying bugs are anyway. An "open source" car would be a dream come true.

fragmede 3y ago
The Rally Fighter by Local Motors would be right up your alley!

vdaea 3y ago

At least in Europe the state won't let you do that because of ULEZ regulations

kakaz 3y ago

[dead]