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Buggy software is dogging the switch to electric cars
- rpmisms 3y agoI can't believe it's shocking that legacy auto can't write software.
- mikece 3y agoLegacy? I thought we were mainly talking about Tesla here in the comments.
- rpmisms 3y agoNot sure if you've ever used a Tesla interface, but they're so much better than the garbage we've gotten used to in cars. I was also the first comment, so...
- dylan604 3y agoWell, it's a good thing the software in an EV is restricted to the UI. /s Tesla's software for FSD (whatever that name means) doesn't work, and is one of the worst places for buggy beta software that I can think of
- rpmisms 3y agoI paid for a month out of curiosity, and it was actually great. Really enjoyed it on long trips. Obviously I used it as intended. Autopilot works stupid good the rest of the time, though. Great feature.
- FirmwareBurner 3y agoHow about this: Instead of buying overpriced buggy new cars with SW developed by "moove fast, break things" bootcamp web-devs, I keep my 2000's car which has buttons and knobs and much less software on it, and who's only software on it has been developed by grumpy old EEs with grey beards, and is only there just for controlling the engine and safety ECUs instead of fucking with touchscreens to open the bloody windows. How about that?
- maxwell 3y agoUnsustainable. Cars don't hold up for very long. The future is electric hot rods. If cars are computers now then I'll build my own thanks.
- LiquidPolymer 3y agoI dread the day I have to give up my 04 Outback. Love the layout of the controls and the easy adjustments. More and more I’ve been doing my own repairs which gives me great satisfaction. This last Monday I changed out the alternator. The vehicle still gives me great pleasure to drive.
- mvkel 3y agoWould you consider yourself an early adopter? Based on this comment, I'm going to assume not. Cars have been around for over a century, so you'd be forgiven for not seeing them through a lens of innovation. But modern EVs have played "catch up" in a lot of ways, bringing UX heuristics that are two plus decades old into the dashboard. Like anything new, this necessitates a more forgiving mindset. The issue here is the folks with your mentality are also the ones charged with incorporating these heuristics into cars. Thats a fundamental issue, because they are fundamentally different ways of looking at the world. The world is asking car companies to become tech companies, without any staff changes. Not a recipe for success.
- FirmwareBurner 3y ago>The world is asking car companies to become tech companies No, the world isn't. Musk started a fad of replacing the hardware that worked in cars with software to save costs and look "futuristic" on Twitter, and now everyone is racing to emulate the shitty parts of Tesla's approach, but EVs don't need to be this annoying and user hostile. Just give me something with a battery and a motor who's only controlled by switches and knobs and the meatbag between the seat and steering wheel, no fancy software, no autopilot, no touchscreens. Basically give me a 2000's car that's an EV and not a smartphone trying to be a car.
- giantg2 3y ago
- graemep 3y agoICE cars are becoming more software reliant too. I have been wondering whether EVs will get more of a bad name from their coming along at the same time as cars in general are enshittified than from any problems that are directly related to being electic.
- lemming 3y agoI agree, I suspect this is more of a "new car" problem than an EV problem.
- CatWChainsaw 3y agoIt looks like you're driving a car without a touchscreen or black-box computer that the manufacturer can mine for "data", let's fix that!
- jcrawfordor 3y agoThis is all tremendously frustrating to me because electric cars don't have to be this complicated. I've enjoyed the restoration work on my electric-converted minitruck because it's all very simple. Sure, there is software, running in the motor controller and the instrument cluster. Both are fairly straightforward to work with, though, and have small functionality scopes that makes it unlikely you'd want to change anything besides configuration. The user interface is mostly just 12v through switches to GPIOs on the motor controller, though the instrument cluster receives data via CANOpen which of course greatly simplifies the wiring. What I'm saying is that I don't think there's really any connection between these software problems and electric vehicles... the problem is that electric vehicles are being introduced at the same time that the auto industry has bet on advanced software features, touchscreen interfaces, and sophisticated infotainment as the way to win customers. Since the EVs are broadly new designs, they're often getting all these new features first. Major examples like Tesla have caused consumers to conflate "electric drivetrain" and "huge touchscreen, no buttons," when one does not need to imply the other. Look at the hobby EV community, they can be built in very straightforward ways that are easier to diagnose than combustion engines. The industry just doesn't want to.
- willsmith72 3y agoyou can blame tesla for that. the whole premise was EV + autopilot, lumping software in the electrical hardware bucket
- eddywebs 3y agoHobby EV community sounds fascinating, are there any links to active community?
- theteapot 3y agoNow do it a million times and see if a failure mode crops up.
- gambiting 3y agoYep, the best example is our little EV - the Volkswagen e-Up, I love that little car, it still has normal analog gauges, basic bluetooth radio, physical controls for AC(!!!!), no touchscreen anything.....it just works day in and day out. 150 mile range in summer, 120 in winter, it's enough for us, fits a baby seat, stroller, shopping from costco...and it was "relatively" cheap to buy too. I wish we had more of this, rather than modern EVs which apart from pushing the electric drivetrain have to push some crazy complex infotainment system on you.
- giantg2 3y agoIt's not really buggy software. The real part is cost. The reason EVs are loaded with features is to increase the price they can charge and diffuse the cost of the battery. I do not want most of the features in the current EVs, even if they aren't buggy. I want an EV that's the equivalent of a work truck. That doesn't mean it has to be a truck, but basic radio/usb, power locks/windows, basic seats and rubber floor, etc. Typically only work trucks are stripped down like this, but similar options for cars or SUVs would be nice. Not everything should sync with my phone and blow hot (or cold) air up my ass.
- marssaxman 3y agoThe now-sadly-cancelled Bollinger project was the electric vehicle I really wanted.
- lastofthemojito 3y agoRelated to high-cost and EVs, I've noticed this phenomenon of automakers hyping EVs with low announced starting prices, but initially only selling the expensive, high-end versions of the car, then eventually (maybe) releasing the cheaper version much later. I first noticed this with Tesla, then Rivian and Lucid followed suit, which isn't terribly surprising. But now Chevy is doing that with the Blazer EV: https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44723787/2024-chevy-blazer-ev-base-higher-pricing/ https://www.caranddriver.com/news/a44723787/2024-chevy-blaze... I don't know if they really just can't conceive of how much these things are going to cost to make ahead of time, or if they're just trying to grab headlines with attractive pricing or whatever, but it's annoying. I mean, cars have always been expensive to build, but I don't really remember say, the new Civic coming out and Honda being like "yeah, we're only going to build Touring trims at first, then EXs when the demand drops, and finally maybe a couple of years from now we'll build you an LX model".
- bluGill 3y agoHonda puts features on the Acura line. Toyota has Lexus. They bring features to the basic line if they become popular.
- mikece 3y agoSerious question: what software is truly needed on an electric car that's not in a "normal" car beyond the charge controller and the linkage between the accelerator and the inputs to the motors? Sometimes I wonder if Tesla has done a disservice to electric cars by making them so computerized and throwing in features nobody really asked for, like like self-driving and drive-by-wire controls.
- bri3d 3y agoThe base cost of an electric car is very high, so customers (at least, according to manufacturers), demand features aligned with the price. A $25-$30,000 ICE work truck or $20,000 basic economy car looks good compared to the feature laden $40,000 upgrade model. A $40,000 electric car with zero features, on the other hand, looks bad compared to the $40,000 fully loaded gas car. This theory has mostly panned out I think - the Leaf was probably the most barebones electric car you could get and wasn’t a very strong seller.
- ajross 3y ago> Sometimes I wonder if Tesla has done a disservice to electric cars by making them so computerized and throwing in features nobody really asked for, like like self-driving and drive-by-wire controls. Teslas aren't drive-by-wire. The steering column and brakes are 100% conventional controls. Only the accelerator pedal is electronic, but that's true of basically all hybrids too. As far as "too many features"... That's the kind of argument that only works in the abstract. Name any one weird feature that "no one" uses and you'll discover that a bunch of people love it. Tesla's features work. I mean, sure, there are bugs here and there, but it's in general an extremely smooth software experience. It's not Tesla's fault that GM and VW can't ship bug-free equivalents.
- mpalmer 3y agoIs it just me or does Axios have a bit of a pro-Musk bent lately? First the pro billionaire link the other day, now an ostensibly straight-news item that throws shade at EV makers not named Tesla.
- natch 3y agoHave I entered bizarro world here? Did we even read the same article? Far from being pro-Musk (Musk wasn't even mentioned), the only mention of Tesla in the article is a highly misleading mischaracterization of events. And the non-Tesla EV makers absolutely deserve shade. Your definition of a pro-Musk article is one that doesn't try to eviscerate or even mention him, and even slights his company? Super odd.
- technofiend 3y agoSort of as the Japanese completely ROFL-stomped latge portions of the USA's automakers' offerings by simply building better quality cars in the 70s and 80s, I would be delighted to see China offer an open-source platform their respective EV manufacturers could adopt. No data collection, no subscriptions, just simple and robust apps. It'll never happen for a long list of reasons but it's nice to dream.
- cqqxo4zV46cp 3y agoYou’re conflating very real usability concerns with a very nerdy wish list that has little to no broad appeal. Realistically people aren’t fussed about tracking and they certainly aren’t fussed about open source.
- fragmede 3y agoBut this is the Internet age. It doesn't need mass market appeal. If enough people throw into the Kickstarter, it can happen.
- bluGill 3y agoSure, you can buy cars with those things easy to adjust already. For more than $million each. Such companies can't handle selling 10 of them in a year. (even then most of the parts are from a standard car, they just expose a few minor changes)
- riskable 3y agoThe success of routers that can run OpenWRT would beg to differ.
- fragmede 3y agoI'm not sure what your point is. Has there been a prosumer mesh AP product that runs OpenWRT on Kickstarter that I didn't see that failed? Quite possible as I don't trawl through Kickstarter for my wallet's sake. Ubiquity is in the middle of destroying themselves, so something in the prosumer space seems like it would do well.
- ao8w3u4oaw9u3 3y agoImportant Note: This is a terrible written "article" - it's so disjointed and weirdly formatted that it barely even counts as an article - who the hell came up with this format Additional note: it's just clips of text mashed together in a mixed bullet point format - I'm not willing to take the time to read it in this format Summary: The bits and pieces I did read through didn't mention anything that I hadn't read in other sources years ago and the website didn't suggest any alternatives - I didn't learn anything from this
- LeoPanthera 3y agoThis is pretty standard for Axios. I hate it, but it's really popular in tech circles. I don't understand why.
- theteapot 3y agoThey should just get AI to write the code.
- protastus 3y agoTesla has the valuation of a tech company. Traditional automakers have the valuation of heavy industries. Traditional automaker execs want Big Tech valuations. So they've loaded up their products with tech, in areas they have no track record of delivering, and often without any customer demand. Starting with EVs. Result: overpriced cars that are substantially less reliable. This sloppy delivery will further separate the wheat from the chaff in this space. We already see a narrative from certain automakers that EVs aren't competitive. They should be more specific: their EVs aren't competitive.