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Japan is insane on the paperwork front. The amount of stuff my wife has to deal with (because my Japanese is frankly terrible) for basic processes is mind numbi

Japan is insane on the paperwork front. The amount of stuff my wife has to deal with (because my Japanese is frankly terrible) for basic processes is mind numbing. Things like having to write out your address and contact info on five different forms for one appointment, visiting multiple offices to submit paperwork in for the same process, etc.. Moving apartments (heaven forbid it is to a different city government) involves weeks of straight up administrative work from one person in the household.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago
>Japan is insane on the paperwork front. Worse than Germany?
- lukan 3y ago
  What legal battles do you have to fight, to move apartements? I remember, I had to file one paper from the landlord and my ID and that was it. Took 5 minutes.
  - JD557 3y ago
    I think you just need the Wohnungsgeberbestätigung from the landlord and fill the registration paperwork at the Bürgeramt (which, depending on your city, might be a bit hard to get an appointment), you might also need to take care of the TV bill stuff. While not awful, comparing to Portugal, where I just need to register in a website an then wait to get a confirmation code by mail, it feels like going back to the stone age.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      And then there's the US where is no legal requirement to have a permanent address even if, as a practical matter, you sort of need at least a quasi one.
    - mytailorisrich 3y ago
      Why do you need to "register" your address? Why do you need any of this? I've found that's the question to ask with paperwork. For instance, France is also extremely bad regarding paperwork and administrative red tape and people are so used to it that many can't imagine that many of it is not actually needed for society to function. I noticed when I moved to the UK: Suddenly all that was absolutely necessary to protect civilisation and the Republic (I only exaggerate a little bit) did not even exist and everything still ran smoothly. Telling example: During the Covid lockdowns, the French administration decided that people had to fill and sign an official form to keep on them every time they left home. Basically "I swear that I am only doing my daily excercise. Date, signature" to be shown to any police officer who might ask, or "zut alors" you're nicked.
      - lukan 3y ago
        "Why do you need to "register" your address? Why do you need any of this?" Control. So the state knows in theory, who is living where. With the joke being, that those institutions, where that information would actually be useful, don't know anyway. And so you still have to submit your adress everywhere (and then again, and a third time, to be sure).
      - RandomLensman 3y ago
        Compared to the UK where you need to have some utility bills or bank statements as proof of an address, having an ID card with an address is a lot easier in practice. But, yes, different societies have different approaches there and they are kind of designed around it.
        mytailorisrich 3y ago
        > Compared to the UK where you need to have some utility bills or bank statements as proof of an address, having an ID card with an address is a lot easier in practice. Well, no. You already have bills in your name, so there is nothing to do. On the other hand, regarding ID cards (in France): First there is no obligation to keep the address on it up-to-date (so why is there even an address on it?). Second, if you do want the address to be up-to-date then you need to follow the administrative procedure to get a new ID card, which involves providing... a proof of address in the form of an utility bill!
    - canadiantim 3y ago
      jeez Wohnungsgeberbestätigung is a mouthful
    - lukan 3y ago
      "you might also need to take care of the TV bill stuff" You mean what was formerly known as GEZ? No worries, nowdays that got easier, they just help themself. In my case they just took the money straight from my bank account without consent or asking first, or without me even giving them my current account. (No idea how that was possible, it was the same account as some years ago, but I was living offroad for some time and never gave them permission, but suing them is a fools errand)
- ciclotrone 3y ago
  Having immigrated to both places: yes, much worse.
- juujian 3y ago
  I know Germany always catches a lot of flack for bureaucracy, but changing my address in G was essentially pain free. The most adverse circumstances I have definitely encountered in the US of all places... Having rules is one thing. Having processes that are borderline broken, that's the real issue.
  - cnasc 3y ago
    The fun thing about bureaucracy in the US is that you never know what to expect. Half the time it’s a kafkaesque hellscape, but the other half you come away astonished at how smooth and painless the experience was
    - duxup 3y ago
      I think this is somewhat helped that a lot of bureaucracy is split between federal and states. States aren't perfect by any means, and sometimes introduce extra steps if both state and federal are involved, but they also seem less inclined generally to have to consider a whole nation of people and are happy to have you fill out one form that hasn't changed much for 40 years and ... that's it. It's certainly an interesting phenomenon how simple some things can be.
    - juujian 3y ago
      They wanna keep you on your toes :D I'm doing taxes for the first time this year, wish me luck!
  - kmlx 3y ago
    in order to change my address in the UK all I needed to do was to either send an email with some bill attached or just call (depending on the service).
- FinnKuhn 3y ago
  considering that an appointment for changing your registered address in Germany can be booked online and than you only have to go in person so they can put the new address on your ID card, show them your "Wohnungsgeberbestätigung" (letter from the landlord that you actually live there when you rent, not needed when you own your house) and sign once that you actually moved there I would say it sounds worse than in Germany.
duxup 3y ago
I hadn't even thought moving would take multiple pieces of paper ... In the US it's just https://moversguide.usps.com/mgo/disclaimer?referral=UMOVE https://moversguide.usps.com/mgo/disclaimer?referral=UMOVE And this isn't even "required".
- ghaff 3y ago
  You may have some utilities and other things like that. Driver's license/registration if you're moving states. But very little really that you legally need to do.
  - Izkata 3y ago
    Also home insurance or renter's insurance. Legally required in plenty of places.
    - ghaff 3y ago
      Mortgage companies typically require home insurance (and often pay it themselves from an escrow account so they can be sure it's up to date). It would surprise me if renter's insurance was generally required. Even if I have a nominal permanent address, I may not actually have a lease or spend much time there (if any). The basic point is that most people in the US will want some permanent address where they can get mail etc. and is where they live from the perspective of official government documents. But they may not actually live there (and aren't required to).
- Aachen 3y ago
  This looks like a snail mail forwarding service? Surely that's not mandatory to move somewhere else? I've never used this in Europe (moved 5 times), just tell the places that need to send me physical mail my new address
  - duxup 3y ago
    It's not mandatory as far as ... nobody is going to let you move. It does mean that you'll get your old mail delivered to your old place forwarded to your new place while the other folks mailing you get their ducks in a row. And honestly I can't think of all the places that might mail me.
bemmu 3y ago
I live in Japan so deal with some of this. The attitude I've adopted is that the government officials are giving me free Japanese speech practice.
- DizzyDoo 3y ago
  A week ago I just so happened to look up some of your older blog posts and Candy Japan articles that you had written, it was an enjoyable reread! For anyone else, here are some links: https://www.candyjapan.com/life-in-japan https://www.candyjapan.com/life-in-japan https://www.candyjapan.com/behind-the-scenes https://www.candyjapan.com/behind-the-scenes
2cynykyl 3y ago
Having just spent many months in Japan, I can confirm this...the paper work was so involved it could have been satire. To change our address on our residence cards we need to do 'move out' paperwork in the old ward and bring that to the new one. Each visit takes the better part of a day. Dozens and dozens of people are working intensely behind the counter to service just a few customers. Eventually I came to this explanation: their culture is obsessed with perfection, from perfectly paved roads to perfectly preserved temples to perfectly presented food, etc...but this pursuit of perfection in the hands of bureaucrats leads to processes where everything is captured in detail, approved by multiple people, etc. Basically, in the eyes of a bureaucrat, 'perfection' is a rock-solid paper-trail rather than a frictionless experience for the citizens.
- pembrook 3y ago
  I have a similar working theory. This is a problem in many formal, detail-and-rule-obsessed cultures. Germany, like Japan, is lauded for its industrial engineering/manufacturing — but has the exact same hilarious obsession with government paperwork. Meanwhile, more creative and permissive cultures — like say, Sweden (outsized influence on global fashion/culture/tech given its size), have far less paperwork.
  - thanatos519 3y ago
    Canada isn't so detail-and-rule-obsessed, but their civil service is friendly and inefficient. I much prefer the kind and well-executed Dutch bureaucracy, even as an expat here. Filing my taxes, even in a year in which I bought a house, took less than an hour. Canadian taxes were comparatively byzantine!
- skizm 3y ago
  It sounds like they're all (government officials) just trying to keep their obsolete jobs alive by clinging to old methods of doing things under the guise of it being more reliable. Dozens of people don't need to service a few customers for perfection. The opposite. That's too many cooks in the kitchen. They need fewer people and fewer processes. The more convoluted the process, the higher likelihood of screw ups.
0dayz 3y ago
Would you say that this is due to overzealous bureaucracy or does it have a point? Since I'm not sure how much paper work you can do to confirm thst you are indeed moving away or loving in. Also wondering if this could be elevated somewhat by having the form be digitalized as it is in certain European countries.
mariuolo 3y ago
I hope it's not everything by hand.

FirmwareBurner 3y ago

>Japan is insane on the paperwork front. Worse than Germany?

lukan 3y ago
What legal battles do you have to fight, to move apartements? I remember, I had to file one paper from the landlord and my ID and that was it. Took 5 minutes.
- JD557 3y ago
  I think you just need the Wohnungsgeberbestätigung from the landlord and fill the registration paperwork at the Bürgeramt (which, depending on your city, might be a bit hard to get an appointment), you might also need to take care of the TV bill stuff. While not awful, comparing to Portugal, where I just need to register in a website an then wait to get a confirmation code by mail, it feels like going back to the stone age.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    And then there's the US where is no legal requirement to have a permanent address even if, as a practical matter, you sort of need at least a quasi one.
  - mytailorisrich 3y ago
    Why do you need to "register" your address? Why do you need any of this? I've found that's the question to ask with paperwork. For instance, France is also extremely bad regarding paperwork and administrative red tape and people are so used to it that many can't imagine that many of it is not actually needed for society to function. I noticed when I moved to the UK: Suddenly all that was absolutely necessary to protect civilisation and the Republic (I only exaggerate a little bit) did not even exist and everything still ran smoothly. Telling example: During the Covid lockdowns, the French administration decided that people had to fill and sign an official form to keep on them every time they left home. Basically "I swear that I am only doing my daily excercise. Date, signature" to be shown to any police officer who might ask, or "zut alors" you're nicked.
    - lukan 3y ago
      "Why do you need to "register" your address? Why do you need any of this?" Control. So the state knows in theory, who is living where. With the joke being, that those institutions, where that information would actually be useful, don't know anyway. And so you still have to submit your adress everywhere (and then again, and a third time, to be sure).
    - RandomLensman 3y ago
      Compared to the UK where you need to have some utility bills or bank statements as proof of an address, having an ID card with an address is a lot easier in practice. But, yes, different societies have different approaches there and they are kind of designed around it.
      - mytailorisrich 3y ago
        > Compared to the UK where you need to have some utility bills or bank statements as proof of an address, having an ID card with an address is a lot easier in practice. Well, no. You already have bills in your name, so there is nothing to do. On the other hand, regarding ID cards (in France): First there is no obligation to keep the address on it up-to-date (so why is there even an address on it?). Second, if you do want the address to be up-to-date then you need to follow the administrative procedure to get a new ID card, which involves providing... a proof of address in the form of an utility bill!
  - canadiantim 3y ago
    jeez Wohnungsgeberbestätigung is a mouthful
  - lukan 3y ago
    "you might also need to take care of the TV bill stuff" You mean what was formerly known as GEZ? No worries, nowdays that got easier, they just help themself. In my case they just took the money straight from my bank account without consent or asking first, or without me even giving them my current account. (No idea how that was possible, it was the same account as some years ago, but I was living offroad for some time and never gave them permission, but suing them is a fools errand)
ciclotrone 3y ago
Having immigrated to both places: yes, much worse.
juujian 3y ago
I know Germany always catches a lot of flack for bureaucracy, but changing my address in G was essentially pain free. The most adverse circumstances I have definitely encountered in the US of all places... Having rules is one thing. Having processes that are borderline broken, that's the real issue.
- cnasc 3y ago
  The fun thing about bureaucracy in the US is that you never know what to expect. Half the time it’s a kafkaesque hellscape, but the other half you come away astonished at how smooth and painless the experience was
  - duxup 3y ago
    I think this is somewhat helped that a lot of bureaucracy is split between federal and states. States aren't perfect by any means, and sometimes introduce extra steps if both state and federal are involved, but they also seem less inclined generally to have to consider a whole nation of people and are happy to have you fill out one form that hasn't changed much for 40 years and ... that's it. It's certainly an interesting phenomenon how simple some things can be.
  - juujian 3y ago
    They wanna keep you on your toes :D I'm doing taxes for the first time this year, wish me luck!
- kmlx 3y ago
  in order to change my address in the UK all I needed to do was to either send an email with some bill attached or just call (depending on the service).
FinnKuhn 3y ago
considering that an appointment for changing your registered address in Germany can be booked online and than you only have to go in person so they can put the new address on your ID card, show them your "Wohnungsgeberbestätigung" (letter from the landlord that you actually live there when you rent, not needed when you own your house) and sign once that you actually moved there I would say it sounds worse than in Germany.

duxup 3y ago

I hadn't even thought moving would take multiple pieces of paper ... In the US it's just https://moversguide.usps.com/mgo/disclaimer?referral=UMOVE https://moversguide.usps.com/mgo/disclaimer?referral=UMOVE And this isn't even "required".

ghaff 3y ago
You may have some utilities and other things like that. Driver's license/registration if you're moving states. But very little really that you legally need to do.
- Izkata 3y ago
  Also home insurance or renter's insurance. Legally required in plenty of places.
  - ghaff 3y ago
    Mortgage companies typically require home insurance (and often pay it themselves from an escrow account so they can be sure it's up to date). It would surprise me if renter's insurance was generally required. Even if I have a nominal permanent address, I may not actually have a lease or spend much time there (if any). The basic point is that most people in the US will want some permanent address where they can get mail etc. and is where they live from the perspective of official government documents. But they may not actually live there (and aren't required to).
Aachen 3y ago
This looks like a snail mail forwarding service? Surely that's not mandatory to move somewhere else? I've never used this in Europe (moved 5 times), just tell the places that need to send me physical mail my new address
- duxup 3y ago
  It's not mandatory as far as ... nobody is going to let you move. It does mean that you'll get your old mail delivered to your old place forwarded to your new place while the other folks mailing you get their ducks in a row. And honestly I can't think of all the places that might mail me.

bemmu 3y ago

I live in Japan so deal with some of this. The attitude I've adopted is that the government officials are giving me free Japanese speech practice.

DizzyDoo 3y ago
A week ago I just so happened to look up some of your older blog posts and Candy Japan articles that you had written, it was an enjoyable reread! For anyone else, here are some links: https://www.candyjapan.com/life-in-japan https://www.candyjapan.com/life-in-japan https://www.candyjapan.com/behind-the-scenes https://www.candyjapan.com/behind-the-scenes

2cynykyl 3y ago

Having just spent many months in Japan, I can confirm this...the paper work was so involved it could have been satire. To change our address on our residence cards we need to do 'move out' paperwork in the old ward and bring that to the new one. Each visit takes the better part of a day. Dozens and dozens of people are working intensely behind the counter to service just a few customers. Eventually I came to this explanation: their culture is obsessed with perfection, from perfectly paved roads to perfectly preserved temples to perfectly presented food, etc...but this pursuit of perfection in the hands of bureaucrats leads to processes where everything is captured in detail, approved by multiple people, etc. Basically, in the eyes of a bureaucrat, 'perfection' is a rock-solid paper-trail rather than a frictionless experience for the citizens.

pembrook 3y ago
I have a similar working theory. This is a problem in many formal, detail-and-rule-obsessed cultures. Germany, like Japan, is lauded for its industrial engineering/manufacturing — but has the exact same hilarious obsession with government paperwork. Meanwhile, more creative and permissive cultures — like say, Sweden (outsized influence on global fashion/culture/tech given its size), have far less paperwork.
- thanatos519 3y ago
  Canada isn't so detail-and-rule-obsessed, but their civil service is friendly and inefficient. I much prefer the kind and well-executed Dutch bureaucracy, even as an expat here. Filing my taxes, even in a year in which I bought a house, took less than an hour. Canadian taxes were comparatively byzantine!
skizm 3y ago
It sounds like they're all (government officials) just trying to keep their obsolete jobs alive by clinging to old methods of doing things under the guise of it being more reliable. Dozens of people don't need to service a few customers for perfection. The opposite. That's too many cooks in the kitchen. They need fewer people and fewer processes. The more convoluted the process, the higher likelihood of screw ups.

0dayz 3y ago

Would you say that this is due to overzealous bureaucracy or does it have a point? Since I'm not sure how much paper work you can do to confirm thst you are indeed moving away or loving in. Also wondering if this could be elevated somewhat by having the form be digitalized as it is in certain European countries.

mariuolo 3y ago

I hope it's not everything by hand.