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This is a very in-depth, informative and factual review. My hats off to the Verge; great job. I have racked up hours upon hours of actual, productive work in m

by Topfi 3y ago

This is a very in-depth, informative and factual review. My hats off to the Verge; great job. I have racked up hours upon hours of actual, productive work in my Quest 2 and 3, so to say that I am a big proponent of the ideas that Apple is trying to advance would be an understatement. This makes me all the more disheartened to read that, for all their efforts, this release is mired by the same drawbacks that I have encountered across numerous headsets over the last decade: > [..] there’s a little bit of distortion and vignetting around the edges of the lenses, and you’ll see some green and pink color fringing at the edges as well, especially in bright environments. [..] If you’re looking at something bright or otherwise high contrast [..] you’ll see highlights reflecting in the lenses. Prior to this review, I was actually willing to understand certain seemingly odd decisions, such as the concept of putting an OLED display on the outside, the potential for weight distribution issues, and an external battery, as I was hopeful that, similar to the iPhone, there'd be a cohesive whole in the end that wasn't fully understandable until reviewers got to use it. I also was, somewhat naive, I admit that, under the impression that their handling of vignetting, etc. would be less noticable then what seems to be the case and, again naively following their marketing videos, had higher FOV expectations. To draw a parallel, the initial iPhone made some major tradeoffs and at the time odd choices, to say the least, many of which were laughed at for arguably justifiable reasons at the time, but I could see something in that that went beyond then-available touch-only smartphones and PDAs in terms of usability and cohesiveness. I fail to see the same in this review. Neither as an actual user nor as an enthusiast, do I see anything here that has not been done before. While your then-PDA may have supported 3G and came with many other capabilities the first iPhone lacked, there were certain things in regard to build, design, usability and intuitiveness that were unparalleled in the products at the time. Comparing an iPhone and an iPAQ Pocket PC made the latter seem ancient, even though it could do a lot the iPhone couldn't. Compare a Vision Pro to a Quest 3, I am saddened to say I don't see the same.

theNJR 3y ago
You captured my feeling perfectly. In particular >> While your then-PDA may have supported 3G and came with many other capabilities the first iPhone lacked, there were certain things in regard to build, design, usability and intuitiveness that were unparalleled in the products at the time. Comparing an iPhone and an iPAQ Pocket PC made the latter seem ancient, even though it could do a lot the iPhone couldn't. Compare a Vision Pro to a Quest 3, I am saddened to say I don't see the same.>> I too was hoping for the sum of the parts to be something special. I’m picking my AVP up on Saturday. I’ll give it an honest go but expect to return it within a week. I’ve owned most VR headsets and they sit in a drawer, rarely used. For a few hundred dollars I’m ok with that. For a few thousand I am not.
- PaulHoule 3y ago
  I got a Hololens 1 that turned out to be a white elephant and I read a lot of stories about people buying VR headsets and abandoning them so when I got an MQ3 I was quite deliberate about getting a variety of games and apps and spending enough time with VR to succeed at it.
  - theNJR 3y ago
    I co-founded a (failed) vr startup so I’ve got my 100 hours in the Oculus and Vive
- al_borland 3y ago
  What makes you continue to try all the VR headsets if they keep sitting in a drawer at the end of the day (honest question)? When I see comments like this, and there seem to be many, I can’t help but think VR is a technology in search of a problem. With every platform Apple has launched they show the problem it will solve for customers and I just don’t see that here, and really haven’t seen it with any VR headset, at least not enough to overcome the downsides. I can’t help but think of this video of Steve Jobs… “you’ve got to start with the customer experience and work backward to the technology. You can’t start with the technology and try to figure out where you’re going to try and sell it.” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oeqPrUmVz-o https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oeqPrUmVz-o
bombcar 3y ago
The whole thing feels very ... "original xbox" to me. Hear me out. It was argued that a big part of the original xbox for Microsoft was making sure they had a toehold in the gaming console market because that market had a change of disrupting the personal computer - and if that happened, they wanted to be there for it and have something ready to go. They did something similar with phones, and we can see how it spectacularly failed - they have zero say or relevance in the massive smartphone market. I almost feel the Vision Pro is Apple's attempt to put a toe in the water just in case this VR stuff takes off and destroys the smartphone market.
- mhh__ 3y ago
  I could imagine that might have been why it came about originally but that line of thinking doesn't seem to justify the R&D spend alone. I'd imagine they have some belief in it being able to make new business of its own. If I'm not mistaken this is the first properly post-Steve product?
  - ketzo 3y ago
    I think AirPods were post-Steve? And they were both widely mocked at launch and wildly successful.
    - wharvle 3y ago
      Like so many Apple things, I thought AirPods were dumb until I got some (as a gift). I'd tried some Logitech wireless earbuds just a couple months before first trying AirPods. Those were dumb. God they sucked. I've avoided the Watch for that reason. The little conveniences of various Apple-thingies are the sort of stuff you can't un-experience, and then you're stuck buying the damn things forever.
      - hbn 3y ago
        I think about this frequently while using my AirPods. It's annoying that we're all becoming accustomed to spending anywhere from like $130 to $250 on in-ear headphones that aren't guaranteed a particularly long lifespan, to replace wired headphones that an acceptable quality pair can be had for like $15. But I'll be damned if the AirPods experience isn't far more convenient, and has me using them more than I ever did with wired headphones because they're so quick and easy to use. I can pop one in an ear and immediately I'm listening to a podcast while doing laundry. No cord tethering my head to my pocket, nothing to get snagged on a doorknob, it just works. When I pull one out of my ear it pauses, and resumes when I put it back in. When you only have one AirPod in, it knows and automatically converts the audio stream to mono so you still hear everything. Still would be nice to have the 3.5mm jack back, but I certainly haven't felt a desire to go back to wired headphones since I got AirPods.
tfandango 3y ago
Out of curiosity, what are you using for work on your Quest? I also have a Q2 and have tried, maybe not too seriously, several of the screen sharing apps to do work but couldn't quite get past the resolution and lag. Perhaps that has gotten better since, it's been some time. Instead now I use it for entertainment and very much like it, but if I could make that next leap it would be great!
- swozey 3y ago
  Virtual Desktop for desktop work
- Topfi 3y ago
  For that purpose, the difference between the Q2 and Q3 was so vast that I cannot oversell it. While it's still not perfect due to the resolution, the switch to pancake lenses made screencasting to the Q3 something I could do for many hours at a time and enjoy it, whereas on the Q2 with the limited sweet spot in the center, it was really only for very specific use cases. On the Q2, even slightly off center becomes unreadable; on the Q3, you can move your eyes right to the panel border and still read text at the edge. The main use case is heavy multitasking with Confluence, Jira and an IDE in full-sized windows.
  - tfandango 3y ago
    Thank you. Your experience with the Quest 2 mirrors my own. I'm undecided if I will try a Q3 or skip a generation. It definitely seems like things are moving in the right direction and I'm excited about that!
    - tuscen 3y ago
      I'd advice you to skip another generation. I can give my experience with it. I have Q3 and try to use it for work from time to time and it is still not enough to replace an actual monitor, at least for me. FOV of 110 degress is too narrow, maybe 140 degress would solve it, but I'm not sure. The thing is that apparently I glance to content without turning my head a lot and I discovered it when I tried to use Q3 for actual work. Even though the lenses and POV are much better than on Q2 and other wired VR glasses it's not enough for me still. Also sometimes reflections in the lenses are too bright and distracting and I don't know how to fix this. Resolution is much much better than Q2 and Quest S that I also have, but it's still not enough. And IPS panel is the biggest downside of it. That should've use OLED instead. But the main problem that stops me from using it is the smoothness of the whole process of starting to work. You can't just sit behind you desk, put on the glasses and start working. The whole process reminds me of preflight preparation: you need to ensure that the software is running and correctly setup on you PC and that's not always the case. You always need to ensure that you have controllers by your side, because hand tracking often fails, and Q3 often struggles to find my hands at all. Basically, software wise it's not there for a 100% smooth ride like with screens where you just sit at your desk and start to work without a single hitch. In short, it's like a death by thousand cuts. Some people can tolerate some of them and can use Q3 for work, but in my case I wasn't able to tolerate any of them and that kills it for me for now. I hope for Q4 or maybe Quest Pro 2 after seeing a slim prototype that Mark showed some time ago.
2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago
> I have racked up hours upon hours of actual, productive work in my Quest 2 and 3 I have a lot of questions. Would you recommend them? Do you work primarily in VR? I haven't tried VR but the use-case I envision is to put on a VR headset and be "at work".
- Topfi 3y ago
  > Would you recommend them? Yes, no, maybe. Thing is, I've never used a device or software that I haven't found faults with. Overall, the Quest has turned into a solid, though still imperfect, platform, with Meta pushing updates at a consistent, but also breakneck pace, sometimes at the expense of addressing existing issues. Hand tracking from the early days of the Q2 has made massive leaps and has become my preferred method of navigation for its reliability and ease, yet at the same time, the changes in camera placement between the Q2 and Q3 lead to a decrease in controller tracking performance in very specific scenarios. Essentially, they are constantly experimenting, both on the hard- and software front, trying to optimize what they can within their very low price point. Still, if you are interested and have an idea what you'd like to use the headset for, I'd recommend trying one within the return window, though I'd strongly suggest adding a "halo-style" strap (BoboVR is my current favorite) for comfort. > Do you work primarily in VR? No, a more healthy mix between a single 27" JOLED and the Quest 3 for workloads that require more screen real estate but can go without as much overall resolution. About 60/40 in favor of the regular panel.
  - jbellis 3y ago
    I use my xreal air as my airplane display. I would love the Quest 3's higher resolution but my understanding is that compared to the XA the Q3 - Requires controllers - Requires wifi instead of plugging in the cable and it just works* - Has fairly limited battery life Am I mistaken on these points / do you think it would work on an airplane despite them? * To be fair, the XA only "just works" in vanilla display mode, the fancy xreal multiple virtual monitors feature called Nebula doesn't work well enough to be worth the hassle.
    - Topfi 3y ago
chris-orgmenta 3y ago
Sorry for the slight tangent, but: What's the current state of VR&AR Headset friction / boot time? This is what I expected Apple to solve first. With VR/AR headsets, the friction to 'boot in' seems to be one of the biggest problems in adoption, and one that I feel Meta et al don't openly talk about. (Note, I am ignorant of this field in general). How close are we to seamless, quick boot, such that one puts on a headset and are 'immediately' immersed? (Compare to my phone, which unlocks before my eyes even have time to focus on the screen). (My admittedly poor) web searching of this question just tends to offer webpages on common boot issues (e.g. 'Quest boot time'/'Vive startup time' just leads to complaints and support forums.) I suspect this also to be a primary issue with the true 'metaverse' taking hold. GTA6 will, in my opinion, be the luxury 'hang-out' metaverse, but will likely take many minutes to access. I feel that Microsoft could have made Minecraft the de facto metaverse (by implementing certain features), but will never quite get there. Perhaps a WebGL game that can take you to a bookmarked 'spacial' lobby within 3000ms can get real traction.
- spywaregorilla 3y ago
  boot time is not nearly as relevant as with a phone where you're constantly turning it off.
- Topfi 3y ago
  Cold boot time on a Quest is roughly half a minute, though most of the time, you'll just wake it up from standby. For testing, I just put my Quest 3 on my head, and without pressing the power button, I counted five mississippis (seconds) before I was fully in their heavily customized version of Android with hand tracking recognizing my digits.
- swozey 3y ago
  I have a MQ3 I haven't used in a few weeks sitting on the charger. I picked it up, spent 10 seconds finding the power button, hit button, put it on, waited 25 at the meta logo then was in VR. Didn't test opening a game but for a big one it's probably the same 10-45 seconds to start I'd imagine. It's not something I ever really thought about, you boot it once a session and it goes idle/wake, not hibernate if you just put it on your desk for a minute. The MQ3 is WAY better than my Vive and better even than the MQ2 at being a "throw on and gun" quick device. It's way lighter, less work to get going with. The MQ3 is an awesome device, I love it.
treprinum 3y ago
Never buy version 1 I guess (unless the company is fighting for survival and has to deliver, with 100% focus).
KronisLV 3y ago
> I have racked up hours upon hours of actual, productive work in my Quest 2 and 3... I have a Quest 2 right now and attempting to use it for desktop computing just doesn't work all that well for me (their Quest Link app with desktop windows, or SteamVR desktop feature; might also have to use the Meta Workspace app or whatever it was called in the future). All of the text feels a bit blurry and it's like the resolution just isn't there. I don't even have that high of a resolution dev setup outside of VR, just four 21.5" monitors running at 1080p. I do catch myself squinting a little bit at them sometimes, but 10, 11 and 12 font sizes (in JetBrains IDEs and VS Code) seem too small in VR and going bigger decreases the lines of code per screen to an annoying degree. Best I can do in VR for that ends up being one huge monitor in front of me, two on each side, as well as a huge overhead one, but that leads to a lot of turning my head, maybe just a bit more than I'd like to. I'm not sure whether it's the headset with the lenses that's messed up, whether it's my eyes that are just bad, or the fact that the distance between the lenses should be a little higher than the headset allows for (at least based on what an IPD test I read online suggests), but the end result is that the experience isn't very good... yet.

by Topfi 3y ago

theNJR 3y ago

You captured my feeling perfectly. In particular >> While your then-PDA may have supported 3G and came with many other capabilities the first iPhone lacked, there were certain things in regard to build, design, usability and intuitiveness that were unparalleled in the products at the time. Comparing an iPhone and an iPAQ Pocket PC made the latter seem ancient, even though it could do a lot the iPhone couldn't. Compare a Vision Pro to a Quest 3, I am saddened to say I don't see the same.>> I too was hoping for the sum of the parts to be something special. I’m picking my AVP up on Saturday. I’ll give it an honest go but expect to return it within a week. I’ve owned most VR headsets and they sit in a drawer, rarely used. For a few hundred dollars I’m ok with that. For a few thousand I am not.

PaulHoule 3y ago
I got a Hololens 1 that turned out to be a white elephant and I read a lot of stories about people buying VR headsets and abandoning them so when I got an MQ3 I was quite deliberate about getting a variety of games and apps and spending enough time with VR to succeed at it.
- theNJR 3y ago
  I co-founded a (failed) vr startup so I’ve got my 100 hours in the Oculus and Vive
al_borland 3y ago
What makes you continue to try all the VR headsets if they keep sitting in a drawer at the end of the day (honest question)? When I see comments like this, and there seem to be many, I can’t help but think VR is a technology in search of a problem. With every platform Apple has launched they show the problem it will solve for customers and I just don’t see that here, and really haven’t seen it with any VR headset, at least not enough to overcome the downsides. I can’t help but think of this video of Steve Jobs… “you’ve got to start with the customer experience and work backward to the technology. You can’t start with the technology and try to figure out where you’re going to try and sell it.” https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oeqPrUmVz-o https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=oeqPrUmVz-o

bombcar 3y ago

The whole thing feels very ... "original xbox" to me. Hear me out. It was argued that a big part of the original xbox for Microsoft was making sure they had a toehold in the gaming console market because that market had a change of disrupting the personal computer - and if that happened, they wanted to be there for it and have something ready to go. They did something similar with phones, and we can see how it spectacularly failed - they have zero say or relevance in the massive smartphone market. I almost feel the Vision Pro is Apple's attempt to put a toe in the water just in case this VR stuff takes off and destroys the smartphone market.

mhh__ 3y ago
I could imagine that might have been why it came about originally but that line of thinking doesn't seem to justify the R&D spend alone. I'd imagine they have some belief in it being able to make new business of its own. If I'm not mistaken this is the first properly post-Steve product?
- ketzo 3y ago
  I think AirPods were post-Steve? And they were both widely mocked at launch and wildly successful.
  - wharvle 3y ago
    Like so many Apple things, I thought AirPods were dumb until I got some (as a gift). I'd tried some Logitech wireless earbuds just a couple months before first trying AirPods. Those were dumb. God they sucked. I've avoided the Watch for that reason. The little conveniences of various Apple-thingies are the sort of stuff you can't un-experience, and then you're stuck buying the damn things forever.
    - hbn 3y ago
      I think about this frequently while using my AirPods. It's annoying that we're all becoming accustomed to spending anywhere from like $130 to $250 on in-ear headphones that aren't guaranteed a particularly long lifespan, to replace wired headphones that an acceptable quality pair can be had for like $15. But I'll be damned if the AirPods experience isn't far more convenient, and has me using them more than I ever did with wired headphones because they're so quick and easy to use. I can pop one in an ear and immediately I'm listening to a podcast while doing laundry. No cord tethering my head to my pocket, nothing to get snagged on a doorknob, it just works. When I pull one out of my ear it pauses, and resumes when I put it back in. When you only have one AirPod in, it knows and automatically converts the audio stream to mono so you still hear everything. Still would be nice to have the 3.5mm jack back, but I certainly haven't felt a desire to go back to wired headphones since I got AirPods.

tfandango 3y ago

Out of curiosity, what are you using for work on your Quest? I also have a Q2 and have tried, maybe not too seriously, several of the screen sharing apps to do work but couldn't quite get past the resolution and lag. Perhaps that has gotten better since, it's been some time. Instead now I use it for entertainment and very much like it, but if I could make that next leap it would be great!

swozey 3y ago
Virtual Desktop for desktop work
Topfi 3y ago
For that purpose, the difference between the Q2 and Q3 was so vast that I cannot oversell it. While it's still not perfect due to the resolution, the switch to pancake lenses made screencasting to the Q3 something I could do for many hours at a time and enjoy it, whereas on the Q2 with the limited sweet spot in the center, it was really only for very specific use cases. On the Q2, even slightly off center becomes unreadable; on the Q3, you can move your eyes right to the panel border and still read text at the edge. The main use case is heavy multitasking with Confluence, Jira and an IDE in full-sized windows.
- tfandango 3y ago
  Thank you. Your experience with the Quest 2 mirrors my own. I'm undecided if I will try a Q3 or skip a generation. It definitely seems like things are moving in the right direction and I'm excited about that!
  - tuscen 3y ago
    I'd advice you to skip another generation. I can give my experience with it. I have Q3 and try to use it for work from time to time and it is still not enough to replace an actual monitor, at least for me. FOV of 110 degress is too narrow, maybe 140 degress would solve it, but I'm not sure. The thing is that apparently I glance to content without turning my head a lot and I discovered it when I tried to use Q3 for actual work. Even though the lenses and POV are much better than on Q2 and other wired VR glasses it's not enough for me still. Also sometimes reflections in the lenses are too bright and distracting and I don't know how to fix this. Resolution is much much better than Q2 and Quest S that I also have, but it's still not enough. And IPS panel is the biggest downside of it. That should've use OLED instead. But the main problem that stops me from using it is the smoothness of the whole process of starting to work. You can't just sit behind you desk, put on the glasses and start working. The whole process reminds me of preflight preparation: you need to ensure that the software is running and correctly setup on you PC and that's not always the case. You always need to ensure that you have controllers by your side, because hand tracking often fails, and Q3 often struggles to find my hands at all. Basically, software wise it's not there for a 100% smooth ride like with screens where you just sit at your desk and start to work without a single hitch. In short, it's like a death by thousand cuts. Some people can tolerate some of them and can use Q3 for work, but in my case I wasn't able to tolerate any of them and that kills it for me for now. I hope for Q4 or maybe Quest Pro 2 after seeing a slim prototype that Mark showed some time ago.

2OEH8eoCRo0 3y ago

> I have racked up hours upon hours of actual, productive work in my Quest 2 and 3 I have a lot of questions. Would you recommend them? Do you work primarily in VR? I haven't tried VR but the use-case I envision is to put on a VR headset and be "at work".

Topfi 3y ago
> Would you recommend them? Yes, no, maybe. Thing is, I've never used a device or software that I haven't found faults with. Overall, the Quest has turned into a solid, though still imperfect, platform, with Meta pushing updates at a consistent, but also breakneck pace, sometimes at the expense of addressing existing issues. Hand tracking from the early days of the Q2 has made massive leaps and has become my preferred method of navigation for its reliability and ease, yet at the same time, the changes in camera placement between the Q2 and Q3 lead to a decrease in controller tracking performance in very specific scenarios. Essentially, they are constantly experimenting, both on the hard- and software front, trying to optimize what they can within their very low price point. Still, if you are interested and have an idea what you'd like to use the headset for, I'd recommend trying one within the return window, though I'd strongly suggest adding a "halo-style" strap (BoboVR is my current favorite) for comfort. > Do you work primarily in VR? No, a more healthy mix between a single 27" JOLED and the Quest 3 for workloads that require more screen real estate but can go without as much overall resolution. About 60/40 in favor of the regular panel.
- jbellis 3y ago
  I use my xreal air as my airplane display. I would love the Quest 3's higher resolution but my understanding is that compared to the XA the Q3 - Requires controllers - Requires wifi instead of plugging in the cable and it just works* - Has fairly limited battery life Am I mistaken on these points / do you think it would work on an airplane despite them? * To be fair, the XA only "just works" in vanilla display mode, the fancy xreal multiple virtual monitors feature called Nebula doesn't work well enough to be worth the hassle.
  - Topfi 3y ago

chris-orgmenta 3y ago

Sorry for the slight tangent, but: What's the current state of VR&AR Headset friction / boot time? This is what I expected Apple to solve first. With VR/AR headsets, the friction to 'boot in' seems to be one of the biggest problems in adoption, and one that I feel Meta et al don't openly talk about. (Note, I am ignorant of this field in general). How close are we to seamless, quick boot, such that one puts on a headset and are 'immediately' immersed? (Compare to my phone, which unlocks before my eyes even have time to focus on the screen). (My admittedly poor) web searching of this question just tends to offer webpages on common boot issues (e.g. 'Quest boot time'/'Vive startup time' just leads to complaints and support forums.) I suspect this also to be a primary issue with the true 'metaverse' taking hold. GTA6 will, in my opinion, be the luxury 'hang-out' metaverse, but will likely take many minutes to access. I feel that Microsoft could have made Minecraft the de facto metaverse (by implementing certain features), but will never quite get there. Perhaps a WebGL game that can take you to a bookmarked 'spacial' lobby within 3000ms can get real traction.

spywaregorilla 3y ago
boot time is not nearly as relevant as with a phone where you're constantly turning it off.
Topfi 3y ago
Cold boot time on a Quest is roughly half a minute, though most of the time, you'll just wake it up from standby. For testing, I just put my Quest 3 on my head, and without pressing the power button, I counted five mississippis (seconds) before I was fully in their heavily customized version of Android with hand tracking recognizing my digits.
swozey 3y ago
I have a MQ3 I haven't used in a few weeks sitting on the charger. I picked it up, spent 10 seconds finding the power button, hit button, put it on, waited 25 at the meta logo then was in VR. Didn't test opening a game but for a big one it's probably the same 10-45 seconds to start I'd imagine. It's not something I ever really thought about, you boot it once a session and it goes idle/wake, not hibernate if you just put it on your desk for a minute. The MQ3 is WAY better than my Vive and better even than the MQ2 at being a "throw on and gun" quick device. It's way lighter, less work to get going with. The MQ3 is an awesome device, I love it.

treprinum 3y ago

Never buy version 1 I guess (unless the company is fighting for survival and has to deliver, with 100% focus).

KronisLV 3y ago

> I have racked up hours upon hours of actual, productive work in my Quest 2 and 3... I have a Quest 2 right now and attempting to use it for desktop computing just doesn't work all that well for me (their Quest Link app with desktop windows, or SteamVR desktop feature; might also have to use the Meta Workspace app or whatever it was called in the future). All of the text feels a bit blurry and it's like the resolution just isn't there. I don't even have that high of a resolution dev setup outside of VR, just four 21.5" monitors running at 1080p. I do catch myself squinting a little bit at them sometimes, but 10, 11 and 12 font sizes (in JetBrains IDEs and VS Code) seem too small in VR and going bigger decreases the lines of code per screen to an annoying degree. Best I can do in VR for that ends up being one huge monitor in front of me, two on each side, as well as a huge overhead one, but that leads to a lot of turning my head, maybe just a bit more than I'd like to. I'm not sure whether it's the headset with the lenses that's messed up, whether it's my eyes that are just bad, or the fact that the distance between the lenses should be a little higher than the headset allows for (at least based on what an IPD test I read online suggests), but the end result is that the experience isn't very good... yet.