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To be honest I live in one of the most pampered eras doing the cushiest job from home. But even so I dont understand how people motivate themselves to make chil

To be honest I live in one of the most pampered eras doing the cushiest job from home. But even so I dont understand how people motivate themselves to make children, especially if they have a 1-2 hour commute and are forced by debt to take on shittier jobs than mine (probably 99% of jobs out there). Why even do this for 60 years and also condemn your kids to the same thing? It might seem like bragging but I basically won the game and I dont see anything worth it up here. I guess the struggle is what gives you meaning or something and children can be your cope because they will have a better life than yours if yours sucks.

czbond 3y ago
One word - "Feelings". Kids invoke feelings, people are susceptible and ruled by them. Logic is then applied to the decision to justify.
- throw4847285 3y ago
  Way to tell on yourself. Most emotionally mature people understand when feelings are driving their decision making, and don't try to justify it with self-serving logic. Only weird nerds claim to be ruled by logic and are actually motivated mostly by their feelings (the most prominent one in my experience being inadequacy).
  - czbond 3y ago
    Nothing I stated is untrue. Humans are prone to err on the side of feelings, even if they are what make us human. They are also what make us generally illogical or at least non-strategic. The difference is people who can segment feelings from impacting making logical decisions.
    - throw4847285 3y ago
      I think we agree except that I believe that most people who claim to have "segmented their feelings" have actually repressed their feelings, and are far more prone to motivated reasoning than people who are overtly emotional. Edit: Or, you know what? I deny the entire individualistic framing. I think to actually make logical decisions about anything of substance, it takes more than one person. For things that don't matter, like what to eat for lunch or what book to buy, it's fine letting your emotions take the wheel. I think the individual logical person is a myth. We're social animals. Logical reasoning is a collective enterprise.
- Zach_the_Lizard 3y ago
  Feelings are part of what makes us human. We love our parents, enjoy the company of our friends, like listening to music and so much more. Not everything in life is logical.
manmal 3y ago
Are you looking for confirmation of your lifestyle here? > I basically won the game There are many ways to play this game, and I think it’s a bit early to declare yourself a winner if you haven’t even hit your deathbed.
- questinthrow 3y ago
  Of course there are many ways. But as a consequence of this it doesnt matter how you play your game, I have won mine. If by example you think winning your game requires X children then do it. But the feeling that you need X children is as subjective as my feeling of winning my game
  - manmal 3y ago
    You don’t seem to think of children as people in your life, but as objects or objectives. That’s IMO not a healthy way of approaching this topic.
- lftl 3y ago
  Also a bit strange to call yourself the winner when you're clearly not happy. I think OP has misunderstood the game.
anonfornoreason 3y ago
How can you consider yourself to have won the game when you clearly describe being unhappy with life? Maybe introspect a bit and consider some change.
- questinthrow 3y ago
  You might imply that I am unhappy because I say theres nothing worth it. However unhappiness only exists if you want something to be worth it and are disappointed by its nonexistence, you can be at peace with meaninglessness as long as you let go of desire
  - readthenotes1 3y ago
    [flagged]
    - questinthrow 3y ago
      Alright I guess I really have to make that child now in order to satisfy my ego and show that I am actually capable of difficult things! That will help surely
    - happytoexplain 3y ago
      >unless you have raised a good child, you have done nothing difficult or worthwhile. This and the suggestion that the parent must be depressed are antagonistic and unjustified. However, it's also a common reaction to the parent's opinion. It's a form of defensiveness where there was no attack, because the topic is so tightly linked to ten-million-year-old emotions.
- happytoexplain 3y ago
  I don't see an implication that the parent is overall unhappy. I think responses like yours are frequently defensive when it comes to this particular topic.
monero-xmr 3y ago
Children are the greatest gift. In my opinion your life is very empty, full of materialism and selfishness. On your deathbed you will look back and wonder what it was all about, and no one will be there with you.
- questinthrow 3y ago
  If your children have helped you then continue making them, I dont mind
  - monero-xmr 3y ago
    It's possibly not obvious to you, but to me and the other commenters here, you have a depressed and nihilistic outlook. Life is full of tragedy - likely something will shake you from your comfy perch. Disability, illness, a layoff, who knows. Only the fewest people live an entire long life without the slightest pain. It would be wise to have the tools so that even if you were quadriplegic, you could still have love surrounding you and find purpose in life. I genuinely hope you get the help you need.
    - hotpotamus 3y ago
      > Disability, illness, a layoff I've faced all these (disability from a young age even) and as a result, I don't think there's any way I could raise children. Both because of my own issues make it seem challenging beyond possibility, but also because I wouldn't want to force a child to face the same problems I did. I very much believe to each their own on this particular subject, but if global fertility is "collapsing", then it seems like more people are coming to the same conclusion for one reason or another.
      - monero-xmr 3y ago
        I totally understand not wanting to have children for disability and deciding you are not fit to be a parent. But the OP had a lot of projection onto people who do have kids, which is false. I think being 100% financially able to have children, and choosing not to because you like to travel and watch Netflix more, is a poor reason. But everyone is free to make their own choices. My point about being comfy, was the OP's self description of a blessed, wealthy, pain-free life. But this state of things is temporary, so to be sure one has the mental, emotional, and spiritual tools to accept life when one isn't living a comfy existence. The description of having kids, and of life itself being meaningless, is a signal that when life throws the OP a tragedy, the response will not be healthy.
scrapcode 3y ago
I think you're asking a pretty profound question here, a. la "What is the meaning of life?" Not all of life's work has to be such a drudge. I would argue that you certainly have not won "the game" if nothing seems worth it from where you sit. Has it not afforded you the opportunity to pursue hobbies / travel / etc that you desire? Has your work never been interesting or given you a spark to learn new things about our world / universe / inner-workings of personal relationships? I believe it is much more about the journey than the finish line.
- questinthrow 3y ago
  I have satisfied all the desires that you speak of, hobbies, travelling and so on. But in the end only an absence of desire actually helped me, realizing the arbitrary nature of my goals and desires and how they all only provide momentary succor.
- johnea 3y ago
  There is no "meaning" of life. What even is the meaning of meaning? Asking about the "meaning" is reallly just asking: How does this affect ME? Even asking this question is a demonstration of our species' general lack of appreciation for how outragously improbable our existence is. Stop worrying about your "special purpose" and start being thankful that you're a winner of the trillion-to-one lottery that lets you sit here and think about these things... How does this apply to the birth-rate issue? Simple, we need to intelligently manage our population size, which means having many-many less people on the planet...
  - agent008t 3y ago
    Life comes with a lot of suffering inseparable from it. Different paths in life we can choose result in different kinds of struggle we onboard. Meaning is defined as what makes it overwhelmingly worthwhile. A lot of religions/philosophies - Stoicism, Buddhism, Christianity etc. - are great for dealing with these problems for yourself, assuming you are already here. None, however, inspire the creation of new life to deal with this stuff. E.g. "Virtue is the highest good and its own reward" is great, but why create new life to have to deal with this if it can be avoided? It becomes circular and meaningless. Any kind of dopamine-based pleasures are also somewhat degrading to one's humanity once you realize you're effectively being the mouse pushing the button, and are certainly far removed from having any meaning. What difference does it make how fast you were running on the hedonic treadmill if you're going to die?
tomp 3y ago
I always envisionen myself having a (large) family in the future. The future came, sooner that I thought I guess (it creeps up behind you without you noticing!) I have a 2 year old son now. His laughter is one of the most beautiful sounds in the world! I love watching him grow. Planning to have more, soon.
- DougN7 3y ago
  This is the answer. I had a beautiful life before having a child, but what I didn’t realize is although it was finely painted, it was all black and white. My daughter introduced a whole new dimension - color - to the painting of my life. Well worth all the pain.
dontreact 3y ago
My own personal take: I live my life not for enjoyment but to try and leave the world better than I found it. If I can succeed in doing so (even slightly) then teaching 2 children to do the same would be my life’s greatest contribution. I actually think the declining birth rate is rooted in the narrative that humans are ruining the earth. I believe we are making it better and more interesting over time.
- happytoexplain 3y ago
  >I actually think the declining birth rate is rooted in the narrative that humans are ruining the earth I think this is unconvincing. People may cite this in a survey, but this is not how the vast, vast majority of people make a decision like this one. In my opinion, modernity has been increasing quality of life in developed nations for a long time, and recently it's begun a downturn - nothing can increase forever. It's not dramatic, but it is enough to cause a strong conflict with expectations, and one of the first things to go is the giving of your life to children.
  - snapplebobapple 3y ago
    I don't think it works this way. It is more aboit things that stop family formation amd offspring creation from 15 to 35ish, of which earth ruining marratives and the trend in living standards no longer being your friend are part of it. Childhood being extended into mid to late 20's by post secondary is another, overly expensive family housing is another. among many other contributors. If these things succeed in delaying child creation then you end up like me (if you are lucky) and pop out two kids in your late 30's with many miscarriages and discovering the third probably isnt happening with very expensive ivf and even then it is a crapshoot. If you are unlucky you find out you waited too long and indadvertently optedout of the gene pool, at which point the environmental thing is a c(nvenient excuse to use when asked.
- wry_discontent 3y ago
  I don't have data on this, but I've got a lot of friends who are trying to have kids right now and really struggling. How much of a declining birth rate is tied to disruptions in average human fertility?
JauntTrooper 3y ago
Being a father has been the most meaningful thing I've ever done. It gives me a deep sense of satisfaction and joy to raise them, protect them, provide for them, guide them, and get to know them as they grow up. Like you, I also work remotely. My career is fine. It pays the bills. I've been successful. But that's not where I find satisfaction now, and when I leave the workforce eventually it'll go on without me. The deeper, meaningful part of my life is what I've built outside of work - with my wife and kids, my family, my friends, and my piano and bass guitar.
- jauntywundrkind 3y ago
  I'm thinking of fatherhood & terrified at how much children would outsource my motivation. Taking my own purpose & goals & meaning, and throwing them in the garbage to commit myself to doing whatever the kid needs, endlessly. It's horrifying & I hate hate hate how here in the US at least parents get no support, how impossible and expensive childcare is to manage. Being a parent feels like a huge overwhelming full time commitment. And it terrifies me how many good interesting do-er adults the world loses to parenthood. Adults that would find interesting satisfaction & growth, that would bring meaning to the world, are wrapped up in miserable jobs they can't quit and running their child around. Yes, it has huge personal meaning. And it's important in a macro sense for the species. But I feel like so much of the interestingness & possibility of the world is also lost to parenthood, that being a parent very quickly strangles out other transcendental journeys & questings that tend to be the best most inspiring parts of humanity.
  - JauntTrooper 3y ago
    My wife and I haven't found that to be the case. We've been mindful to continue to keep our own interests, hobbies, and friends. My wife started a business when she was pregnant with our third child. I started taking bass lessons weekly last year. I play D&D twice a week. It's important for children to see their parents have a healthy relationship with life that is independent of them. It shows them a model and gives them space to grow as their own person. Childcare is definitely expensive. I'll have to work a few extra years because of it. That gets a lot easier after the first five years though, once they're old enough for public school. And honestly, the transcendental journeys and questing you mention... I don't think that's really where satisfaction is found. I find the most inspiring parts of humanity come from the relationships we form and the people we help and love.
bryanlarsen 3y ago
Question: what was the answer for the thousands of generations ahead of you? It's possible that things were worse for all of your ancestors. If not all then definitely most.
antisthenes 3y ago
What a sad outlook on life. If you find so little enjoyment and consider life something that you _condemn_ people to, then it's probably an incredible win for everyone else that you don't have kids.
disambiguation 3y ago
subtly nihilistic and misanthropic. is this what winning looks like?
wooque 3y ago
>It might seem like bragging but I basically won the game and I dont see anything worth it up here. That's called depression, seek therapy.
rubyfan 3y ago
Nature gave us libido to avert questions like this. As such, many of us are unplanned or unwanted.
nataliste 3y ago
I don't understand this space of what I can only term ecological or economic antinatalism. Can you share your thoughts on the following? Do you think unbeing is preferable to a potentially miserable life that would still likely result in them having their own children that didn't experience their own level of suffering? How many generations of potential suffering is required before having children is off the table? How many n+ future generations of having potentially joyful and regenerating lives would offset the former generations of suffering? What level or type of disaster would trigger it? Would you have had kids if you knew that the Black Death was coming or, being a Roman citizen, that the Roman Empire was going to fall? If you were a European in 1920, fully knowing the outcome of WWII, would you intentionally have kids? What if you only had models that these things were coming in a fuzzy way? My father-in-law told me don't have kids. My brother-in-law sees climate change as catastrophic to any progeny, and my best friend views human life itself as an involuntary evil inflicted on children, but I have difficulties understanding their positions on an intuitive level. I get the reasoning on a rational level, but I don't have the gut-sense of it and it hurts my relationship with my family and friends. Like, my position is that I'd like to think that I'd undergo torture for my kids, and that my kids would do so likewise for theirs recursively until the number of generations outnumbered the stars. From what I can see, living-on is the only thing that actually lasts--everything else will fall away, improve, and fall away again, including what we mean by being human itself, but procreation is forever. How can I understand your perspective? Can I understand it? It would help me build stronger bridges if you (or anyone else) could help me intuitively picture it.
- philosophythrw2 3y ago
  This question seemed authentic and caring enough that I wanted to try and answer it from my point of view, as I greatly share your desire to build stronger bridges with people and understand others. > Do you think unbeing is preferable to a potentially miserable life that would still likely result in them having their own children that didn't experience their own level of suffering? It would depend on my confidence levels that N recursive generations would have better or worse outcomes. This may sound heartless, but knowing my kid has a better life than me only goes so far in making me feel like suffering is worth that. To me at least, humanity and the world is in a context that I don't see the problems that have caused suffering in my life improving, and while I've never been actively suicidal, the thought that eventually I will un-be again is extremely comforting, to the extent that I don't think I'd regret never-having-been, even outside the tautological that I wouldn't be alive to regret it. > How many generations of potential suffering is required before having children is off the table? How many n+ future generations of having potentially joyful and regenerating lives would offset the former generations of suffering? To me at least this question only relevantly includes "those alive while I'm alive." Whether my great great great grandchildren have an amazing time of it has very little bearing on my ability or desire to withstand suffering to achieve it. I realize this is philosophical and subjective. > What level or type of disaster would trigger it? Would you have had kids if you knew that the Black Death was coming or, being a Roman citizen, that the Roman Empire was going to fall? If you were a European in 1920, fully knowing the outcome of WWII, would you intentionally have kids? What if you only had models that these things were coming in a fuzzy way? It's less about a specific disaster and more "how much of your life will you get to spend on things that bring you fulfillment and happiness vs. things that cause suffering." If I had reasonably high confidence those specific things you listed were coming I would not have had children, and given my own family's history through those events, I would find myself rather justified in hindsight in doing so. (multiple prisoners of war, multiple international displacements, multiple individuals killed as civilians due to who or what they were.) In the current context, it has more to do with the holistic "how much of human societal effort do we spend on improving our ability to find joy, actualize ourselves, pursue art, science, and betterment of all human life." And while I recognize that on many absolute measures (e.g. murder) we're better off, it seems to be in the sense of, yes, a society of individuals optimized to serve a relentless machine of efficiency operating a scale far beyond what human group psychology is well-built to interact with, will likely see those same outcomes, but I'm not sure it leads to a net-positive world. A reasonable rebuttal would be if I would ever in history have found life sufficient, given these constraints, and I'm not honestly sure. I can't put myself in a world where I don't have the knowledge and context I do now without feeling I'm lying to myself, but I do think that the presence or absence of the hope that things are going to be "better" vs "more of the same/worse" plays into it heavily (in which sense, innocence may have been bliss), but for better or worse in the current world I do not see the things I value coming any more into the fore. (I had previously worked jobs that were much more relaxed, to try and leave me more time for the things I value, but finding out I had a chronic condition requiring regular surgery meant that this was effectively not an option, and in the long-term, I would have been in a precarious financial and life position sooner or later had I not anyway.) > Like, my position is that I'd like to think that I'd undergo torture for my kids, and that my kids would do so likewise for theirs recursively until the number of generations outnumbered the stars. This gets to the core of the difference between our perspectives, I think. I don't see any inherent good in this outcome. In fact, knowing what I do about human nature/human psychology, that outcome scares the hell out of me. If anything I see "I don't want to have kids" as the one real lever I have to push back against or not be a part of the perpetuation of systems that have gotten us to the point we're at. (While things like climate change are certainly important, to be clear, my lament is largely along things like consolidation of power, the iron law of oligarchy, capture of systems by special interests, and the overarching paperclip-maximizer/"angry tribes of apes" tendencies of humankind)
shrimp_emoji 3y ago
I disagree with your myopic depressed outlook except for the first part: how do you motivate yourself to take on the insane roller coaster ride of having kids? You don't, and nobody is. That's why the future is transhuman clones grown in pods by the state.
happytoexplain 3y ago
The number of low-quality responses that basically go "you're misanthropic, you're depressed, you're nihilistic" (exact adjectives) on HN is gobsmacking to me. It is bonkers that this topic brings out those horrible, shallow emotions even in a (relatively speaking) shrewd and open-minded place like this. It really is like people's brains are short-circuited by even the vaguest "negative" (in the broadest possible sense of the word) opinion on having children, even if that opinion is quite tame and curiosity-minded, and isn't even in the same universe as something like an assertion that you, the reader, shouldn't have children.
friend_and_foe 3y ago
Well, maybe you didn't win the game? Maybe you won by your criteria and you don't see the meaning in life because your criteria was wrong. Maybe winning the game is enriching your life with love and family, no matter how easy your day to day life is. Or not, I don't know, I just know that if you feel like having kids is condemning them to something that sucks you didn't win.
- happytoexplain 3y ago
  Why not just read the parent as written and engage with their writing honestly? Their usage of the phrase "won the game" is obvious and plain. There's no need to pretend they should have meant it in a broader or more emotional sense. It's a pointless word game.
  - friend_and_foe 3y ago
    I'm not, you're misreading what I said.

czbond 3y ago

One word - "Feelings". Kids invoke feelings, people are susceptible and ruled by them. Logic is then applied to the decision to justify.

throw4847285 3y ago
Way to tell on yourself. Most emotionally mature people understand when feelings are driving their decision making, and don't try to justify it with self-serving logic. Only weird nerds claim to be ruled by logic and are actually motivated mostly by their feelings (the most prominent one in my experience being inadequacy).
- czbond 3y ago
  Nothing I stated is untrue. Humans are prone to err on the side of feelings, even if they are what make us human. They are also what make us generally illogical or at least non-strategic. The difference is people who can segment feelings from impacting making logical decisions.
  - throw4847285 3y ago
    I think we agree except that I believe that most people who claim to have "segmented their feelings" have actually repressed their feelings, and are far more prone to motivated reasoning than people who are overtly emotional. Edit: Or, you know what? I deny the entire individualistic framing. I think to actually make logical decisions about anything of substance, it takes more than one person. For things that don't matter, like what to eat for lunch or what book to buy, it's fine letting your emotions take the wheel. I think the individual logical person is a myth. We're social animals. Logical reasoning is a collective enterprise.
Zach_the_Lizard 3y ago
Feelings are part of what makes us human. We love our parents, enjoy the company of our friends, like listening to music and so much more. Not everything in life is logical.

manmal 3y ago

Are you looking for confirmation of your lifestyle here? > I basically won the game There are many ways to play this game, and I think it’s a bit early to declare yourself a winner if you haven’t even hit your deathbed.

questinthrow 3y ago
Of course there are many ways. But as a consequence of this it doesnt matter how you play your game, I have won mine. If by example you think winning your game requires X children then do it. But the feeling that you need X children is as subjective as my feeling of winning my game
- manmal 3y ago
  You don’t seem to think of children as people in your life, but as objects or objectives. That’s IMO not a healthy way of approaching this topic.
lftl 3y ago
Also a bit strange to call yourself the winner when you're clearly not happy. I think OP has misunderstood the game.

anonfornoreason 3y ago

How can you consider yourself to have won the game when you clearly describe being unhappy with life? Maybe introspect a bit and consider some change.

questinthrow 3y ago
You might imply that I am unhappy because I say theres nothing worth it. However unhappiness only exists if you want something to be worth it and are disappointed by its nonexistence, you can be at peace with meaninglessness as long as you let go of desire
- readthenotes1 3y ago
  [flagged]
  - questinthrow 3y ago
    Alright I guess I really have to make that child now in order to satisfy my ego and show that I am actually capable of difficult things! That will help surely
  - happytoexplain 3y ago
    >unless you have raised a good child, you have done nothing difficult or worthwhile. This and the suggestion that the parent must be depressed are antagonistic and unjustified. However, it's also a common reaction to the parent's opinion. It's a form of defensiveness where there was no attack, because the topic is so tightly linked to ten-million-year-old emotions.
happytoexplain 3y ago
I don't see an implication that the parent is overall unhappy. I think responses like yours are frequently defensive when it comes to this particular topic.

monero-xmr 3y ago

Children are the greatest gift. In my opinion your life is very empty, full of materialism and selfishness. On your deathbed you will look back and wonder what it was all about, and no one will be there with you.

questinthrow 3y ago
If your children have helped you then continue making them, I dont mind
- monero-xmr 3y ago
  It's possibly not obvious to you, but to me and the other commenters here, you have a depressed and nihilistic outlook. Life is full of tragedy - likely something will shake you from your comfy perch. Disability, illness, a layoff, who knows. Only the fewest people live an entire long life without the slightest pain. It would be wise to have the tools so that even if you were quadriplegic, you could still have love surrounding you and find purpose in life. I genuinely hope you get the help you need.
  - hotpotamus 3y ago
    > Disability, illness, a layoff I've faced all these (disability from a young age even) and as a result, I don't think there's any way I could raise children. Both because of my own issues make it seem challenging beyond possibility, but also because I wouldn't want to force a child to face the same problems I did. I very much believe to each their own on this particular subject, but if global fertility is "collapsing", then it seems like more people are coming to the same conclusion for one reason or another.
    - monero-xmr 3y ago
      I totally understand not wanting to have children for disability and deciding you are not fit to be a parent. But the OP had a lot of projection onto people who do have kids, which is false. I think being 100% financially able to have children, and choosing not to because you like to travel and watch Netflix more, is a poor reason. But everyone is free to make their own choices. My point about being comfy, was the OP's self description of a blessed, wealthy, pain-free life. But this state of things is temporary, so to be sure one has the mental, emotional, and spiritual tools to accept life when one isn't living a comfy existence. The description of having kids, and of life itself being meaningless, is a signal that when life throws the OP a tragedy, the response will not be healthy.

scrapcode 3y ago

I think you're asking a pretty profound question here, a. la "What is the meaning of life?" Not all of life's work has to be such a drudge. I would argue that you certainly have not won "the game" if nothing seems worth it from where you sit. Has it not afforded you the opportunity to pursue hobbies / travel / etc that you desire? Has your work never been interesting or given you a spark to learn new things about our world / universe / inner-workings of personal relationships? I believe it is much more about the journey than the finish line.

questinthrow 3y ago
I have satisfied all the desires that you speak of, hobbies, travelling and so on. But in the end only an absence of desire actually helped me, realizing the arbitrary nature of my goals and desires and how they all only provide momentary succor.
johnea 3y ago
There is no "meaning" of life. What even is the meaning of meaning? Asking about the "meaning" is reallly just asking: How does this affect ME? Even asking this question is a demonstration of our species' general lack of appreciation for how outragously improbable our existence is. Stop worrying about your "special purpose" and start being thankful that you're a winner of the trillion-to-one lottery that lets you sit here and think about these things... How does this apply to the birth-rate issue? Simple, we need to intelligently manage our population size, which means having many-many less people on the planet...
- agent008t 3y ago
  Life comes with a lot of suffering inseparable from it. Different paths in life we can choose result in different kinds of struggle we onboard. Meaning is defined as what makes it overwhelmingly worthwhile. A lot of religions/philosophies - Stoicism, Buddhism, Christianity etc. - are great for dealing with these problems for yourself, assuming you are already here. None, however, inspire the creation of new life to deal with this stuff. E.g. "Virtue is the highest good and its own reward" is great, but why create new life to have to deal with this if it can be avoided? It becomes circular and meaningless. Any kind of dopamine-based pleasures are also somewhat degrading to one's humanity once you realize you're effectively being the mouse pushing the button, and are certainly far removed from having any meaning. What difference does it make how fast you were running on the hedonic treadmill if you're going to die?

tomp 3y ago

I always envisionen myself having a (large) family in the future. The future came, sooner that I thought I guess (it creeps up behind you without you noticing!) I have a 2 year old son now. His laughter is one of the most beautiful sounds in the world! I love watching him grow. Planning to have more, soon.

DougN7 3y ago
This is the answer. I had a beautiful life before having a child, but what I didn’t realize is although it was finely painted, it was all black and white. My daughter introduced a whole new dimension - color - to the painting of my life. Well worth all the pain.

dontreact 3y ago

My own personal take: I live my life not for enjoyment but to try and leave the world better than I found it. If I can succeed in doing so (even slightly) then teaching 2 children to do the same would be my life’s greatest contribution. I actually think the declining birth rate is rooted in the narrative that humans are ruining the earth. I believe we are making it better and more interesting over time.

happytoexplain 3y ago
>I actually think the declining birth rate is rooted in the narrative that humans are ruining the earth I think this is unconvincing. People may cite this in a survey, but this is not how the vast, vast majority of people make a decision like this one. In my opinion, modernity has been increasing quality of life in developed nations for a long time, and recently it's begun a downturn - nothing can increase forever. It's not dramatic, but it is enough to cause a strong conflict with expectations, and one of the first things to go is the giving of your life to children.
- snapplebobapple 3y ago
  I don't think it works this way. It is more aboit things that stop family formation amd offspring creation from 15 to 35ish, of which earth ruining marratives and the trend in living standards no longer being your friend are part of it. Childhood being extended into mid to late 20's by post secondary is another, overly expensive family housing is another. among many other contributors. If these things succeed in delaying child creation then you end up like me (if you are lucky) and pop out two kids in your late 30's with many miscarriages and discovering the third probably isnt happening with very expensive ivf and even then it is a crapshoot. If you are unlucky you find out you waited too long and indadvertently optedout of the gene pool, at which point the environmental thing is a c(nvenient excuse to use when asked.
wry_discontent 3y ago
I don't have data on this, but I've got a lot of friends who are trying to have kids right now and really struggling. How much of a declining birth rate is tied to disruptions in average human fertility?

JauntTrooper 3y ago

Being a father has been the most meaningful thing I've ever done. It gives me a deep sense of satisfaction and joy to raise them, protect them, provide for them, guide them, and get to know them as they grow up. Like you, I also work remotely. My career is fine. It pays the bills. I've been successful. But that's not where I find satisfaction now, and when I leave the workforce eventually it'll go on without me. The deeper, meaningful part of my life is what I've built outside of work - with my wife and kids, my family, my friends, and my piano and bass guitar.

jauntywundrkind 3y ago
I'm thinking of fatherhood & terrified at how much children would outsource my motivation. Taking my own purpose & goals & meaning, and throwing them in the garbage to commit myself to doing whatever the kid needs, endlessly. It's horrifying & I hate hate hate how here in the US at least parents get no support, how impossible and expensive childcare is to manage. Being a parent feels like a huge overwhelming full time commitment. And it terrifies me how many good interesting do-er adults the world loses to parenthood. Adults that would find interesting satisfaction & growth, that would bring meaning to the world, are wrapped up in miserable jobs they can't quit and running their child around. Yes, it has huge personal meaning. And it's important in a macro sense for the species. But I feel like so much of the interestingness & possibility of the world is also lost to parenthood, that being a parent very quickly strangles out other transcendental journeys & questings that tend to be the best most inspiring parts of humanity.
- JauntTrooper 3y ago
  My wife and I haven't found that to be the case. We've been mindful to continue to keep our own interests, hobbies, and friends. My wife started a business when she was pregnant with our third child. I started taking bass lessons weekly last year. I play D&D twice a week. It's important for children to see their parents have a healthy relationship with life that is independent of them. It shows them a model and gives them space to grow as their own person. Childcare is definitely expensive. I'll have to work a few extra years because of it. That gets a lot easier after the first five years though, once they're old enough for public school. And honestly, the transcendental journeys and questing you mention... I don't think that's really where satisfaction is found. I find the most inspiring parts of humanity come from the relationships we form and the people we help and love.

bryanlarsen 3y ago

Question: what was the answer for the thousands of generations ahead of you? It's possible that things were worse for all of your ancestors. If not all then definitely most.

antisthenes 3y ago

What a sad outlook on life. If you find so little enjoyment and consider life something that you _condemn_ people to, then it's probably an incredible win for everyone else that you don't have kids.

disambiguation 3y ago

subtly nihilistic and misanthropic. is this what winning looks like?

wooque 3y ago

>It might seem like bragging but I basically won the game and I dont see anything worth it up here. That's called depression, seek therapy.

rubyfan 3y ago

Nature gave us libido to avert questions like this. As such, many of us are unplanned or unwanted.

nataliste 3y ago

I don't understand this space of what I can only term ecological or economic antinatalism. Can you share your thoughts on the following? Do you think unbeing is preferable to a potentially miserable life that would still likely result in them having their own children that didn't experience their own level of suffering? How many generations of potential suffering is required before having children is off the table? How many n+ future generations of having potentially joyful and regenerating lives would offset the former generations of suffering? What level or type of disaster would trigger it? Would you have had kids if you knew that the Black Death was coming or, being a Roman citizen, that the Roman Empire was going to fall? If you were a European in 1920, fully knowing the outcome of WWII, would you intentionally have kids? What if you only had models that these things were coming in a fuzzy way? My father-in-law told me don't have kids. My brother-in-law sees climate change as catastrophic to any progeny, and my best friend views human life itself as an involuntary evil inflicted on children, but I have difficulties understanding their positions on an intuitive level. I get the reasoning on a rational level, but I don't have the gut-sense of it and it hurts my relationship with my family and friends. Like, my position is that I'd like to think that I'd undergo torture for my kids, and that my kids would do so likewise for theirs recursively until the number of generations outnumbered the stars. From what I can see, living-on is the only thing that actually lasts--everything else will fall away, improve, and fall away again, including what we mean by being human itself, but procreation is forever. How can I understand your perspective? Can I understand it? It would help me build stronger bridges if you (or anyone else) could help me intuitively picture it.

philosophythrw2 3y ago
This question seemed authentic and caring enough that I wanted to try and answer it from my point of view, as I greatly share your desire to build stronger bridges with people and understand others. > Do you think unbeing is preferable to a potentially miserable life that would still likely result in them having their own children that didn't experience their own level of suffering? It would depend on my confidence levels that N recursive generations would have better or worse outcomes. This may sound heartless, but knowing my kid has a better life than me only goes so far in making me feel like suffering is worth that. To me at least, humanity and the world is in a context that I don't see the problems that have caused suffering in my life improving, and while I've never been actively suicidal, the thought that eventually I will un-be again is extremely comforting, to the extent that I don't think I'd regret never-having-been, even outside the tautological that I wouldn't be alive to regret it. > How many generations of potential suffering is required before having children is off the table? How many n+ future generations of having potentially joyful and regenerating lives would offset the former generations of suffering? To me at least this question only relevantly includes "those alive while I'm alive." Whether my great great great grandchildren have an amazing time of it has very little bearing on my ability or desire to withstand suffering to achieve it. I realize this is philosophical and subjective. > What level or type of disaster would trigger it? Would you have had kids if you knew that the Black Death was coming or, being a Roman citizen, that the Roman Empire was going to fall? If you were a European in 1920, fully knowing the outcome of WWII, would you intentionally have kids? What if you only had models that these things were coming in a fuzzy way? It's less about a specific disaster and more "how much of your life will you get to spend on things that bring you fulfillment and happiness vs. things that cause suffering." If I had reasonably high confidence those specific things you listed were coming I would not have had children, and given my own family's history through those events, I would find myself rather justified in hindsight in doing so. (multiple prisoners of war, multiple international displacements, multiple individuals killed as civilians due to who or what they were.) In the current context, it has more to do with the holistic "how much of human societal effort do we spend on improving our ability to find joy, actualize ourselves, pursue art, science, and betterment of all human life." And while I recognize that on many absolute measures (e.g. murder) we're better off, it seems to be in the sense of, yes, a society of individuals optimized to serve a relentless machine of efficiency operating a scale far beyond what human group psychology is well-built to interact with, will likely see those same outcomes, but I'm not sure it leads to a net-positive world. A reasonable rebuttal would be if I would ever in history have found life sufficient, given these constraints, and I'm not honestly sure. I can't put myself in a world where I don't have the knowledge and context I do now without feeling I'm lying to myself, but I do think that the presence or absence of the hope that things are going to be "better" vs "more of the same/worse" plays into it heavily (in which sense, innocence may have been bliss), but for better or worse in the current world I do not see the things I value coming any more into the fore. (I had previously worked jobs that were much more relaxed, to try and leave me more time for the things I value, but finding out I had a chronic condition requiring regular surgery meant that this was effectively not an option, and in the long-term, I would have been in a precarious financial and life position sooner or later had I not anyway.) > Like, my position is that I'd like to think that I'd undergo torture for my kids, and that my kids would do so likewise for theirs recursively until the number of generations outnumbered the stars. This gets to the core of the difference between our perspectives, I think. I don't see any inherent good in this outcome. In fact, knowing what I do about human nature/human psychology, that outcome scares the hell out of me. If anything I see "I don't want to have kids" as the one real lever I have to push back against or not be a part of the perpetuation of systems that have gotten us to the point we're at. (While things like climate change are certainly important, to be clear, my lament is largely along things like consolidation of power, the iron law of oligarchy, capture of systems by special interests, and the overarching paperclip-maximizer/"angry tribes of apes" tendencies of humankind)

shrimp_emoji 3y ago

I disagree with your myopic depressed outlook except for the first part: how do you motivate yourself to take on the insane roller coaster ride of having kids? You don't, and nobody is. That's why the future is transhuman clones grown in pods by the state.

happytoexplain 3y ago

The number of low-quality responses that basically go "you're misanthropic, you're depressed, you're nihilistic" (exact adjectives) on HN is gobsmacking to me. It is bonkers that this topic brings out those horrible, shallow emotions even in a (relatively speaking) shrewd and open-minded place like this. It really is like people's brains are short-circuited by even the vaguest "negative" (in the broadest possible sense of the word) opinion on having children, even if that opinion is quite tame and curiosity-minded, and isn't even in the same universe as something like an assertion that you, the reader, shouldn't have children.

friend_and_foe 3y ago

Well, maybe you didn't win the game? Maybe you won by your criteria and you don't see the meaning in life because your criteria was wrong. Maybe winning the game is enriching your life with love and family, no matter how easy your day to day life is. Or not, I don't know, I just know that if you feel like having kids is condemning them to something that sucks you didn't win.

happytoexplain 3y ago
Why not just read the parent as written and engage with their writing honestly? Their usage of the phrase "won the game" is obvious and plain. There's no need to pretend they should have meant it in a broader or more emotional sense. It's a pointless word game.
- friend_and_foe 3y ago
  I'm not, you're misreading what I said.