4 ms·

I frequently wonder if there is an opportunity to start a company/nonprofit by using prison labor in a more ethical way, providing better conditions, reasonable

I frequently wonder if there is an opportunity to start a company/nonprofit by using prison labor in a more ethical way, providing better conditions, reasonable pay, personal development —- the things these companies are claiming but then failing to do. Why aren’t there such programs? Has this been tried? It seems these companies aren’t presently trying to improve the conditions, but maybe at first they were?

jacquesm 3y ago
Of course there is no such opportunity. The entrenched parties aren't going to give up their nearly free labor force without a serious fight.
probably_satan 3y ago
[flagged]
james_david 3y ago
I once worked for a firm that developed a small, worker owned business that was owned and managed by incarcerated folks. The business was vertically integrated with the jail and produced food served in the cafeteria. It was unique and very much relied on the song willingness of the correctional staff, but such a thing is possible.
SauciestGNU 3y ago
I'm sorry and I suspect you mean well, but there is no ethical way to utilize coerced/slave labor. If we want to be concerned with rehabilitation we should look at what some successful prisons have done with educational programs. The trick to reducing crime is to help people find a way to live better through legal means than they would through crime.
- Georgelemental 3y ago
  Punishing crime is also necessary. El Salvador provides the model here: they locked up all their criminals, and are now using prison labor to build hospitals, schools, water treatment plants, and other public works projects to benefit all honest citizens. The result: crime rate has fallen off a cliff, and the economy is booming. https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1751748220156268626 https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1751748220156268626
  - wolverine876 3y ago
    > crime rate has fallen off a cliff, and the economy is booming. Sounds like a politician's talking point. I'd be interested in some credible sources (not Twitter) if you have them.
    - Georgelemental 3y ago
      Homicide rate down over 95% since Bukele took office in 2019: https://elsalvadorinfo.net/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/ https://elsalvadorinfo.net/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/ The economic picture is less clear, due to the massive confounding factor of COVID crash and recovery. But the overall trend over Bukele's presidency is clearly positive, with 2019-2022 per-capita growth rate nearly twice the 2015-2018 rate: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=SV&start=2015 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...
      - wolverine876 3y ago
        Thanks for the World Bank data in particular. Looking up Bukele it looks like right-wing dictatorship, firing the attorney general and judges, deploying soldiers to the legislature, etc.
        Georgelemental 3y ago
        Freedom of expression remains intact (no political prisoners) and elections are free and fair. Separation of powers is lacking, which is a risk long-term. But for now, the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) This NYT article has testimonies from citizens about how much more free they feel now: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/world/americas/el-salvador-gangs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/world/americas/el-salvado...
        wolverine876 3y ago
        > the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) Approval ratings, however accurate, are not at all democratic legitimacy, and those and testimonials are right out of the dictator's playbook. Putin, Mussolini, Modi, etc. etc. can say all the same. Democracy - in any meaningful sense - is more than mob rule (which is popular rule!), or rule by a (supposedly) enlightened dictator. It is rule of law, and protects the rights and self-determination of everyone, including the unpopular.

jacquesm 3y ago

Of course there is no such opportunity. The entrenched parties aren't going to give up their nearly free labor force without a serious fight.

probably_satan 3y ago

[flagged]

james_david 3y ago

I once worked for a firm that developed a small, worker owned business that was owned and managed by incarcerated folks. The business was vertically integrated with the jail and produced food served in the cafeteria. It was unique and very much relied on the song willingness of the correctional staff, but such a thing is possible.

SauciestGNU 3y ago

I'm sorry and I suspect you mean well, but there is no ethical way to utilize coerced/slave labor. If we want to be concerned with rehabilitation we should look at what some successful prisons have done with educational programs. The trick to reducing crime is to help people find a way to live better through legal means than they would through crime.

Georgelemental 3y ago
Punishing crime is also necessary. El Salvador provides the model here: they locked up all their criminals, and are now using prison labor to build hospitals, schools, water treatment plants, and other public works projects to benefit all honest citizens. The result: crime rate has fallen off a cliff, and the economy is booming. https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1751748220156268626 https://twitter.com/nayibbukele/status/1751748220156268626
- wolverine876 3y ago
  > crime rate has fallen off a cliff, and the economy is booming. Sounds like a politician's talking point. I'd be interested in some credible sources (not Twitter) if you have them.
  - Georgelemental 3y ago
    Homicide rate down over 95% since Bukele took office in 2019: https://elsalvadorinfo.net/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/ https://elsalvadorinfo.net/homicide-rate-in-el-salvador/ The economic picture is less clear, due to the massive confounding factor of COVID crash and recovery. But the overall trend over Bukele's presidency is clearly positive, with 2019-2022 per-capita growth rate nearly twice the 2015-2018 rate: https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?locations=SV&start=2015 https://data.worldbank.org/indicator/NY.GDP.PCAP.CD?location...
    - wolverine876 3y ago
      Thanks for the World Bank data in particular. Looking up Bukele it looks like right-wing dictatorship, firing the attorney general and judges, deploying soldiers to the legislature, etc.
      - Georgelemental 3y ago
        Freedom of expression remains intact (no political prisoners) and elections are free and fair. Separation of powers is lacking, which is a risk long-term. But for now, the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) This NYT article has testimonies from citizens about how much more free they feel now: https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/world/americas/el-salvador-gangs.html https://www.nytimes.com/2023/04/09/world/americas/el-salvado...
        wolverine876 3y ago
        > the regime clearly has democratic legitimacy (highest approval ratings in the Western hemisphere!) Approval ratings, however accurate, are not at all democratic legitimacy, and those and testimonials are right out of the dictator's playbook. Putin, Mussolini, Modi, etc. etc. can say all the same. Democracy - in any meaningful sense - is more than mob rule (which is popular rule!), or rule by a (supposedly) enlightened dictator. It is rule of law, and protects the rights and self-determination of everyone, including the unpopular.