3 ms·

Periodontal Disease Promotes Alzheimer's in Mice

52 points by leoh 3y ago

ethlala 3y ago
Floss!
- BenFranklin100 3y ago
  Good oral hygiene (apparently) offers protection against heart disease as well. https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12903-023-03775-5 https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12...
  - m463 3y ago
    I remember my dentist told me that.
  - agos 3y ago
    my father, a cardiologist, had a very specific example of spurious correlation he taught to his students: "brushing your teeth correlates with heart disease". I think he would find it hilarious that this kind of correlation appears to be more than a funny example
thunkle 3y ago
Can we look at people with Alzheimer's and check their periodontal records to confirm?
tmikaeld 3y ago
Before anyone starts with mouth wash several times a day.. The bacterial balance in the mouth[0] also play a role here and it’s not mentioned. [0] Topic brought up here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGVLqLxAl0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGVLqLxAl0I
- unsupp0rted 3y ago
  This is life-changing if true, which makes me skeptical. Any other comments on whether this is quackery or well-supported?
  - tmikaeld 3y ago
    If you mean Dr. Nathan Bryan. He’s published a few studies that’s on pubmed[0], you can find them by searching. He's formed a company around it so it's good to be skeptical. From what I've found on the subject brings up a lo confirm what he’s saying about it. However, his primary focus is Nitric oxide and blood circulation. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Bryan+NS&cauthor_id=36349641 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Bryan+NS&cauthor_id=36...
  - throwaway290 3y ago
    Not to be negative but I decided to google it up about 10% into the video and landed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_functions_of_nitric_oxide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_functions_of_nitric... immediately. It's supported by https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22549282 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22549282, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2839282 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2839282, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7585111 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7585111 etc. definitely not just this guy's publications.
- throwaway290 3y ago
  I think if anything it's a tradeoff, you definitely need blood circulation but it seems to make sense to not let too much wrong stuff in through dental issues, cavities and all that right next door to your brains too. But not a doctor of course.
- toomuchtodo 3y ago
  I imagine the fix will be similar to a tetanus vaccine (perhaps developed with mRNA tech), keeping in mind that gum health and cardiovascular health are closely tied together [1]. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/gum-disease-and-heart-disease-the-common-thread https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/gum-disease-and-...
RaoulP 3y ago
Related: I tried a search for "gingivalis" and it turned up the following 3 submissions, all from 5 years ago and related to Alzheimer's. P. gingivalis in Alzheimer's disease brains - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19596915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19596915 (49 comments) Cause of Alzheimer’s: gingivalis, the key bacteria in chronic gum disease - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18984054 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18984054 (12 comments) Porphyromonas gingivalis in Alzheimer’s disease brains: Evidence for causation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18989630 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18989630 (1 comment)
anonzzzies 3y ago
Shame that even in many of the more socialist countries, dentist work is not covered as other healthcare is. Somehow it’s just considered optics/beauty and not critical healthcare. Less fortunate people only go when they are in extreme pain and as the damage has already been done (usually over a long time).
- anjel 3y ago
  I no longer recall the source, but the incidence of major (high cost) dental work at some point in a person's life is so high (80%?) as to be uninsurable. Which is to say even if you balance the cost across the entire population the premium is so high that it too is onorous to afford.
  - moi2388 3y ago
    That makes no sense. If people still get that work done they apparently have the money for it, so they also definitely have that same money spread out over years, which is what insurance is.
    - ben_w 3y ago
      > If people still get that work done They may just not.
    - MrMan 3y ago
      [dead]
    - vidarh 3y ago
      I don't agree with the person above that it's impossible, but the spread between typical dental work spend and "worst case" is low and the odds of running into the high cost is high to the point that it's hard to come up with a proper insurance plan that makes sense both for customers and insurers. This is presumably why most pure dental insurance plans, at least here in the UK, are effectively closer to (pre-)payment plans when you factor in the premium-to-cover ratio. I have worse teeth than average, and even with payouts that would be far higher than average, I've yet to see a dental insurance plan in the UK that'd be worth it to me. For someone with a lower pain threshold for what they can afford to pay out of pocket, however, they can be marginally useful. But for most people in that situation it'd likely still most of the time be better to take a (small) cashflow gamble and put the equivalent of the premiums into a savings account each month. After the first few years, odds are you'd have built up enough that your savings would cushion you more than most dental insurance solutions on the UK market at least, other than accident insurance. If I were to consider any dental insurance, I'd look for one that mostly excluded most things other than higher-payout accident insurance, as the ratio to premium vs. cover for one set of UK plans I looked at was ~1p/year per 1 pound cover and reimbursement of 100% of your costs vs. ~25p/year per 1 pound cover w/only 50% reimbursement + additional restrictions for non-accident treatments.
makz 3y ago
Well, I’m doomed then…
femto 3y ago
Is there a correlation between countries with free dental care and lower Alzheimer's rate?
moon_moon 3y ago
[dead]
ekanes 3y ago
"Periodontal disease (PD), or periodontitis, is an oral inflammatory disease caused by the host’s immunological response to periodontal pathogens [10]. PD is a significant public health burden with a high prevalence among adults. 42% of US adults aged 30 or older have periodontitis, with 7.8% having severe forms of the disease. Periodontitis prevalence increases with age, affecting more than 59% of adults over 65 [11, 12]. Chronic PD is a slow, progressive, irreversible degradation of the tooth-supporting apparatus (periodontium), leading to tooth loss. [13, 14]. PD is initiated by dysbiosis of the microbiome of the oral cavity and results in local inflammation, eventually contributing to chronic systemic inflammation [10, 15]. Periodontitis is associated with neurodegenerative diseases and neuroinflammatory processes through circulating mediators or direct access of the oral microbes to the CNS via systemic circulation [16,17,18]."

52 points by leoh 3y ago

ethlala 3y ago

Floss!

BenFranklin100 3y ago
Good oral hygiene (apparently) offers protection against heart disease as well. https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12903-023-03775-5 https://bmcoralhealth.biomedcentral.com/articles/10.1186/s12...
- m463 3y ago
  I remember my dentist told me that.
- agos 3y ago
  my father, a cardiologist, had a very specific example of spurious correlation he taught to his students: "brushing your teeth correlates with heart disease". I think he would find it hilarious that this kind of correlation appears to be more than a funny example

thunkle 3y ago

Can we look at people with Alzheimer's and check their periodontal records to confirm?

tmikaeld 3y ago

Before anyone starts with mouth wash several times a day.. The bacterial balance in the mouth[0] also play a role here and it’s not mentioned. [0] Topic brought up here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGVLqLxAl0I https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qGVLqLxAl0I

unsupp0rted 3y ago
This is life-changing if true, which makes me skeptical. Any other comments on whether this is quackery or well-supported?
- tmikaeld 3y ago
  If you mean Dr. Nathan Bryan. He’s published a few studies that’s on pubmed[0], you can find them by searching. He's formed a company around it so it's good to be skeptical. From what I've found on the subject brings up a lo confirm what he’s saying about it. However, his primary focus is Nitric oxide and blood circulation. [0] https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Bryan+NS&cauthor_id=36349641 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/?term=Bryan+NS&cauthor_id=36...
- throwaway290 3y ago
  Not to be negative but I decided to google it up about 10% into the video and landed https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_functions_of_nitric_oxide https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Biological_functions_of_nitric... immediately. It's supported by https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22549282 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/22549282, https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2839282 https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2839282, https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7585111 https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/7585111 etc. definitely not just this guy's publications.
throwaway290 3y ago
I think if anything it's a tradeoff, you definitely need blood circulation but it seems to make sense to not let too much wrong stuff in through dental issues, cavities and all that right next door to your brains too. But not a doctor of course.
toomuchtodo 3y ago
I imagine the fix will be similar to a tetanus vaccine (perhaps developed with mRNA tech), keeping in mind that gum health and cardiovascular health are closely tied together [1]. [1] https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/gum-disease-and-heart-disease-the-common-thread https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/gum-disease-and-...

RaoulP 3y ago

Related: I tried a search for "gingivalis" and it turned up the following 3 submissions, all from 5 years ago and related to Alzheimer's. P. gingivalis in Alzheimer's disease brains - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19596915 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=19596915 (49 comments) Cause of Alzheimer’s: gingivalis, the key bacteria in chronic gum disease - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18984054 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18984054 (12 comments) Porphyromonas gingivalis in Alzheimer’s disease brains: Evidence for causation - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18989630 https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=18989630 (1 comment)

anonzzzies 3y ago

Shame that even in many of the more socialist countries, dentist work is not covered as other healthcare is. Somehow it’s just considered optics/beauty and not critical healthcare. Less fortunate people only go when they are in extreme pain and as the damage has already been done (usually over a long time).

anjel 3y ago
I no longer recall the source, but the incidence of major (high cost) dental work at some point in a person's life is so high (80%?) as to be uninsurable. Which is to say even if you balance the cost across the entire population the premium is so high that it too is onorous to afford.
- moi2388 3y ago
  That makes no sense. If people still get that work done they apparently have the money for it, so they also definitely have that same money spread out over years, which is what insurance is.
  - ben_w 3y ago
    > If people still get that work done They may just not.
  - MrMan 3y ago
    [dead]
  - vidarh 3y ago
    I don't agree with the person above that it's impossible, but the spread between typical dental work spend and "worst case" is low and the odds of running into the high cost is high to the point that it's hard to come up with a proper insurance plan that makes sense both for customers and insurers. This is presumably why most pure dental insurance plans, at least here in the UK, are effectively closer to (pre-)payment plans when you factor in the premium-to-cover ratio. I have worse teeth than average, and even with payouts that would be far higher than average, I've yet to see a dental insurance plan in the UK that'd be worth it to me. For someone with a lower pain threshold for what they can afford to pay out of pocket, however, they can be marginally useful. But for most people in that situation it'd likely still most of the time be better to take a (small) cashflow gamble and put the equivalent of the premiums into a savings account each month. After the first few years, odds are you'd have built up enough that your savings would cushion you more than most dental insurance solutions on the UK market at least, other than accident insurance. If I were to consider any dental insurance, I'd look for one that mostly excluded most things other than higher-payout accident insurance, as the ratio to premium vs. cover for one set of UK plans I looked at was ~1p/year per 1 pound cover and reimbursement of 100% of your costs vs. ~25p/year per 1 pound cover w/only 50% reimbursement + additional restrictions for non-accident treatments.

makz 3y ago

Well, I’m doomed then…

femto 3y ago

Is there a correlation between countries with free dental care and lower Alzheimer's rate?

moon_moon 3y ago

[dead]

ekanes 3y ago

"Periodontal disease (PD), or periodontitis, is an oral inflammatory disease caused by the host’s immunological response to periodontal pathogens [10]. PD is a significant public health burden with a high prevalence among adults. 42% of US adults aged 30 or older have periodontitis, with 7.8% having severe forms of the disease. Periodontitis prevalence increases with age, affecting more than 59% of adults over 65 [11, 12]. Chronic PD is a slow, progressive, irreversible degradation of the tooth-supporting apparatus (periodontium), leading to tooth loss. [13, 14]. PD is initiated by dysbiosis of the microbiome of the oral cavity and results in local inflammation, eventually contributing to chronic systemic inflammation [10, 15]. Periodontitis is associated with neurodegenerative diseases and neuroinflammatory processes through circulating mediators or direct access of the oral microbes to the CNS via systemic circulation [16,17,18]."