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People like to complain about how expensive car ownership is in the USA but ignore the fact that poor people and teenagers still manage to own cars. You can st

by _yb2s 3y ago

People like to complain about how expensive car ownership is in the USA but ignore the fact that poor people and teenagers still manage to own cars. You can still buy a 30-40 year old Volvo for $1-2k on Craigslist that will be reliable and safe for decades of hard use with basic maintenance anyone can learn to DIY for a few hundred $ per year. What people are actually complaining about is that the status symbol of owning a newer or expensive looking vehicle is expensive. The fact that older vehicles massively depreciate in value even when still serviceable is a massive benefit to those on a budget. I toy with the idea of going car free to save money, but at the end of the day, owning older cars I maintain myself costs me next to nothing.

callalex 3y ago
I think it’s been a while since you went car shopping on Craigslist. The cheap junk that might not run tomorrow is still in the $8k+ range these days.
- _yb2s 3y ago
  No, buying and sellling cars on CL is a hobby of mine, I'm into old European cars and do it a lot. I recently bought an always garaged since new, like new looking 100k mile Porsche Boxster with great maintenance records for $8k, in the SF Bay area on Craigslist. It wasn't a bad deal, but not really a steal either- that's about what they go for. It's a reliable car, and my daily commuter now. The other elementary school kids getting dropped off at school in new $100k Teslas think we're crazy rich dropping off my kid in a Porsche. I often buy "nice" cars in the 8-10k range, not the cars with cosmetic issues for super cheap. Since Volvo was the example I gave, I just did an SF Bay area search for "volvo" under $3k, and it came up with 61 results. A few look terrible, but about a third, including some of the cheaper ones look to be well maintained daily drivers with some cosmetic issues like dents or peeling paint. Personally, I'd recommend the 740 and 940 models, they are crazy cheap, but extremely good cars. For a deal, look for cars that are well maintained with good maintenance records, but have high mileage and/or cosmetic issues. Also look at car enthusiast forums instead of Craigslist. They often have cars where hobbyists dump a ton of money into them to keep older cars in really top shape.
vehemenz 3y ago
I agree that people buy way more car than they need. However, should poor people and teenagers have to own cars, considering they wouldn't be expected to anywhere else in the world? It's a big expense and part of the underlying problem.
- _yb2s 3y ago
  Um... most poor people and teenagers still have jobs they need to get to. Usually the kind that are much less forgiving of missing work than higher paying jobs.
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - vehemenz 3y ago
    Why is car-only infrastructure required? In my comment I point out structural problems with American infrastructure, but your comment seems to ignore that.
    - _yb2s 3y ago
      My apologies, I misread your comment to say poor people and teenagers were not expected to travel anywhere! Better non car infrastructure would be nice in the USA… I think the two main reasons it isn’t really happening are relatively low population density, and an unfortunate cultural aversion that sees public transit as “low class.” Most dense/big cities in the USA do have fairly decent public transit and are livable car free.
tfourb 3y ago
I'd like to see a source for someone who actually bought a "30-40 year old Volvo for $1-2k" and put it through another few decades of "hard use" while doing only "basic maintenance" for "a few hundred $ per year". I'm all with you that no one in their right mind should ever pay for a new car only to have it depreciate by $10.000+ the moment they drive it off the lot. But the real winner of a strategy is buying a proven reliably car that has been well treated about 10 years after it was new, drive gently for 5-10 more years and sell it once the hefty maintenance stuff starts coming in. Also it should be the smallest, most fuel efficient car you can get away with 95% of the time. You rent or borrow a bigger car for the 5% that you can't cover with your small car.
- _yb2s 3y ago
  I have done exactly that many times, but if you look at car forums with older high quality cars like 80s Mercedes and Volvos, it's not rare at all, what I am talking about is the norm. Think about what you said- when the hefty maintenance stuff starts coming in, if someone doesn't scrap or sell the thing and just pays for all of that, you usually have about as many miles again before it starts to happen again, yet the value is through the floor. I've bought a few cheap 200k mile vehicles that had really extensive service records, usually bought new by wealthy people and maintained with no expense spared, that I put another 100-200k miles on before they needed any major work again. If you're really thrifty, a small 80s European diesel sedan with a stickshift, like the Mercedes 190D or VW Rabbit, has fuel efficiency close to a modern hybrid, at really low cost. Not so great emissions though.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Late 80s were getting near the peak of fuel economy. They had computers and fuel injection which was the last low hanging fruit. They didn't have to deal with modern emissions which often makes economy worse (they did have 1970s emissions, but many of the downfalls of those systems were sorted out). Modern engines are more fuel efficient, but modern cars are often a lot heaver and so the gains have mostly been taken away in that.
  - kipchak 3y ago

by _yb2s 3y ago

callalex 3y ago

I think it’s been a while since you went car shopping on Craigslist. The cheap junk that might not run tomorrow is still in the $8k+ range these days.

_yb2s 3y ago
No, buying and sellling cars on CL is a hobby of mine, I'm into old European cars and do it a lot. I recently bought an always garaged since new, like new looking 100k mile Porsche Boxster with great maintenance records for $8k, in the SF Bay area on Craigslist. It wasn't a bad deal, but not really a steal either- that's about what they go for. It's a reliable car, and my daily commuter now. The other elementary school kids getting dropped off at school in new $100k Teslas think we're crazy rich dropping off my kid in a Porsche. I often buy "nice" cars in the 8-10k range, not the cars with cosmetic issues for super cheap. Since Volvo was the example I gave, I just did an SF Bay area search for "volvo" under $3k, and it came up with 61 results. A few look terrible, but about a third, including some of the cheaper ones look to be well maintained daily drivers with some cosmetic issues like dents or peeling paint. Personally, I'd recommend the 740 and 940 models, they are crazy cheap, but extremely good cars. For a deal, look for cars that are well maintained with good maintenance records, but have high mileage and/or cosmetic issues. Also look at car enthusiast forums instead of Craigslist. They often have cars where hobbyists dump a ton of money into them to keep older cars in really top shape.

vehemenz 3y ago

I agree that people buy way more car than they need. However, should poor people and teenagers have to own cars, considering they wouldn't be expected to anywhere else in the world? It's a big expense and part of the underlying problem.

_yb2s 3y ago
Um... most poor people and teenagers still have jobs they need to get to. Usually the kind that are much less forgiving of missing work than higher paying jobs.
- deleted 3y ago
  [deleted]
- vehemenz 3y ago
  Why is car-only infrastructure required? In my comment I point out structural problems with American infrastructure, but your comment seems to ignore that.
  - _yb2s 3y ago
    My apologies, I misread your comment to say poor people and teenagers were not expected to travel anywhere! Better non car infrastructure would be nice in the USA… I think the two main reasons it isn’t really happening are relatively low population density, and an unfortunate cultural aversion that sees public transit as “low class.” Most dense/big cities in the USA do have fairly decent public transit and are livable car free.

tfourb 3y ago

I'd like to see a source for someone who actually bought a "30-40 year old Volvo for $1-2k" and put it through another few decades of "hard use" while doing only "basic maintenance" for "a few hundred $ per year". I'm all with you that no one in their right mind should ever pay for a new car only to have it depreciate by $10.000+ the moment they drive it off the lot. But the real winner of a strategy is buying a proven reliably car that has been well treated about 10 years after it was new, drive gently for 5-10 more years and sell it once the hefty maintenance stuff starts coming in. Also it should be the smallest, most fuel efficient car you can get away with 95% of the time. You rent or borrow a bigger car for the 5% that you can't cover with your small car.

_yb2s 3y ago
I have done exactly that many times, but if you look at car forums with older high quality cars like 80s Mercedes and Volvos, it's not rare at all, what I am talking about is the norm. Think about what you said- when the hefty maintenance stuff starts coming in, if someone doesn't scrap or sell the thing and just pays for all of that, you usually have about as many miles again before it starts to happen again, yet the value is through the floor. I've bought a few cheap 200k mile vehicles that had really extensive service records, usually bought new by wealthy people and maintained with no expense spared, that I put another 100-200k miles on before they needed any major work again. If you're really thrifty, a small 80s European diesel sedan with a stickshift, like the Mercedes 190D or VW Rabbit, has fuel efficiency close to a modern hybrid, at really low cost. Not so great emissions though.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Late 80s were getting near the peak of fuel economy. They had computers and fuel injection which was the last low hanging fruit. They didn't have to deal with modern emissions which often makes economy worse (they did have 1970s emissions, but many of the downfalls of those systems were sorted out). Modern engines are more fuel efficient, but modern cars are often a lot heaver and so the gains have mostly been taken away in that.
- kipchak 3y ago