11 ms·

Car ownership in the US is becoming more expensive

54 points by macleginn 3y ago

bcardarella 3y ago
Spoiler alert: not just cars
glimshe 3y ago
Some of the numbers, while true, create the false impression that you are required to play the F-150 truck game. In fact, I recently paid under 30K for a brand new Mazda CX-5 with some extras. There was some insurance premium increase, but relatively small considering that my previous car was already 10 years old. I could have bought a new Subaru Crosstrek, quoted to me for 26K, which is far from a barebones car - a new KIA Rio S can be had for under 20K. What's happening is that people are seeing more value out of bigger and more expensive cars, so there is a preferences shift happening. Also, think of inflation. 22 years ago I bought a new Honda Civic EX with manual transmission for 18K, which would be around 30K today. This car would be unthinkable in today's market - barebones radio, stick shift, no camera, no screen and noisy engine. If you have the Crosstrek example in mind, cars are actually getting cheaper, at least in terms of cost-benefit (like computers got cheaper as technology improved).
- everdrive 3y ago
  >This car would be unthinkable in today's market - barebones radio, stick shift, no camera, no screen and noisy engine. All I really want are bare-bones vehicles. I had to practically fight with the Nissan dealership to get their base-model trim. I wish manufacturers would still offer basic vehicles.
  - ptmcc 3y ago
    Such a vehicle is impossible to offer even if they wanted to (they don't) because things like backup cameras and other safety-related equipment are legally required. Once you require a camera, you require a screen. Once you have a screen say goodbye to your barebones radio. Et cetera. But automakers would rather you sell you a high-margin truck or SUV than a barebones economy car, anyway. And hardly anyone would buy them even if they did offer them, as we've observed in the decline of sales of regular sedans and hatchbacks in the US over the past couple decades.
    - kube-system 3y ago
      > Once you have a screen say goodbye to your barebones radio. This is not necessarily the case. When backup cameras were first mandated some manufacturers put the screens in the rear view mirror. The reason everyone has a screen on the dash these days is because new car buyers are often demanding smartphone integrations.
      - kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
        If they have to add $100 in mandated components they're going to delete $100 in componentry that can be shifted to the screen. Knobs cost money.
        kube-system 3y ago
        If it was purely penny pinching, they could have stuck with the cheaper smaller screens in the rear view mirror and put a blank panel in the dash instead of a stereo, like base model vehicles of the past sometimes had. But most automakers are spending a couple of extra bucks on a nicer and more expensive screen in the dash because new car buyers don't want to spend new car money on a car with a dashboard that looks like it's from 2001, and it doesn't make sense to save $50 on a car if you can't sell it. Not long ago, you used to be able to buy new cars without AC, power steering, power windows, power locks, automatic transmissions, painted bumpers, stereos, passenger side mirrors, cupholders, center consoles, etc. And it is still legal to do so. But consumer preferences have changed.
        kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
        Wire harnesses are expensive. Running a video signal over the roof uses more wire than keeping it all in the dash.
        kube-system 3y ago
        They are, but not really that much. Automakers frequently run harnesses with unused wires for lower trims because the expense to inventory multiple parts is more than the wire costs. So it isn't so expensive that they don't waste some wire. On many models there's already a harness run to the front of the roof for other reasons, (garage door opener, compass, safety systems, dome lights, map lights, visor lights, mirror dimmer, microphone) so the labor and assembly costs are mostly already happening anyway. We're talking tens of pennies or single digit dollars of additional cost in material at most. If we pick a popular vehicle with this feature, a 2010 F150, there's a 16 pin connector there, with 12 wires populated. 2 are for the camera. Does it cost more than running 10 wires there? Yes. Was it so much that Ford didn't actually ship the car that way? No. https://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f38/470443d1489862009-2010-f150-video-cap-mirror-16-pin-plug-2010-rear-view_1.jpg https://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f38/470443d1489862009-...
  - manchego 3y ago
    I agree that buyers should have the option to purchase simpler cars. But I think backup cameras are too valuable of a safety improvement to leave out. About a year ago I saw a toddler very likely saved by the backup camera and proximity sensor. This is of course just anecdotal, but it sold me.
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      Wouldn't the proximity sensor be enough? Sounds cheaper and much less prone to unwanted surveillance.
      - manchego 3y ago
        Yeah, I guess then you don't need a screen for display. And to be honest the proximity sensor may have had the greater effect in the situation I referenced. I could hear it beeping from where I was about 30 feet from the car.
  - lwansbrough 3y ago
    I really wish the Hilux Champ was available in North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Hilux_Champ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Hilux_Champ
  - hedgehog 3y ago
    I think the base models are there mostly to be able to advertise a more attractive starting price. I got the base trim of my car but anecdotally the dealership was getting very few of them and on the road I also see very few.
    - everdrive 3y ago
      I did manage to get a base model Nissan Frontier. The features it has and lacks are pretty interesting. It's not manual adjusting mirror -- and I don't mean it's got a little knob on the inside. You roll the window down, and then push the mirror itself with your hands to adjust it. I don't mind it being so basic, but it's interesting that this exists, but not the option for manual locks or manual windows.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        Manual locks require new jigs on the assembly line for the different parts. Since most people want automatic locks they can save the cost of building those jigs and the inventory management to go with them by not offering it. You only get something as an option if the profit of having the with and without version is more than just offering the "better" option to everyone.
  - whartung 3y ago
    If you want a bare bones car, you would probably have good luck getting a 2 year old vehicle from a rental fleet. Those tend to be pretty bare bones vehicles. It was funny, I rented a truck from Home Depot. It was brand new, less than 100 miles on the clock. And, yea, it was lucky to have paint. Automatic transmission, radio, and air conditioner were the top drawer items. Imagine taking 2 knobs, perhaps 1" in diameter, and AM/FM button, and a LED matrix display big enough to display 105.5 and a "stereo" and AM/FM light. That's how big the radio was on this otherwise large dashboard. Vinyl floors, vinyl bench seat, crank windows. And there's something to it. There's a simplicity having a hot <-> cold slider and a fan speed knob versus arguing with a "climate control" system. It's quite difficult to find stripped models on the dealer lot. They'd much rather upsell you the sunroof you don't want because "well, that's all we have". I've never had a real problem ordering a car, just have to be willing to wait for it, but they've all been domestic. 3 of my last 4 cars were ordered to my spec.
    - hot_gril 3y ago
      Best new car dash/interior I've seen was inside a U-Haul. I'm holding onto my old cars for now. If/when EVs become default, that'll be a compelling reason to buy a new car.
- globular-toast 3y ago
  The increase in larger vehicles on the road is making it increasingly unpleasant and unsafe to drive/ride smaller vehicles or use no vehicle at all. It's technically not required to join in, but it essentially is. The only way to avoid the unpleasantness is to join in and get one yourself.
  - gcnnbdff 3y ago
    [dead]
- mbfg 3y ago
  i bought a 2005 Ram 2500 for $25,000, today it would cost minimally $75,000. I actually need a truck to haul hay every week. i dread when the thing rots apart. I will have no answer.
  - randomdata 3y ago
    Even if we assume your truck is now worthless, that's only $1,300 per year. More realistically, assuming you have kept it in reasonable condition, it is probably worth around $8k now, or $900 per year. That's nothing in the grand scheme of things. In your case, that's only $17 per load of hay. Approximately one small bale per load pays for it. That still leaves a lot of meat for the truck to haul – especially a 2500. It is not surprising that the price of new trucks has skyrocketed. I too bought a truck for my farm in the same era for around the same price and I'm glad I did, because in hindsight it was an absolute steal. The ROI it has provided has been off the charts. Again, it is not surprising that new trucks have gone up in price to close the gap. Fantastic investment opportunities never last.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      I bought my F350 15 years ago for $10k, if is worth 7k now. (1999, 7.8 diesel engine). However I have also paid $1000/year to ensure it, which for as little as I use it works out to nearly $.50/mile. It hasn't been a great investment (as a diesel it doesn't like to start in winter), but I can never find anyone to rent me a truck when I need one so it stays (I can rent a truck shaped vehicle with fine print that doesn't let me use it for what I want a truck for)
  - tfourb 3y ago
    Not sure how much hay we are talking, but why not buy a smaller used car with a tow hitch and a trailer? Trailers cost a fraction of what you pay in markup on a pickup over a small car and most cars are more than capable of towing a small to mid-sized trailer. Bonus: you can unhitch the trailer and have a way easier time fitting into parking spaces ;-)
    - 3y ago
- karaterobot 3y ago
  I think this is basically right. But the other part of it is that manufacturers actually have gotten better at pricing, if better is defined as getting people to pay a little bit more than they expected. Locking pretty important stuff behind higher trim packages, or even just making it an overpriced add-on, for example. It's upselling, sure, which they've always done (cf. all the 80s jokes about rustproofing and undercarriage protection). But they've really turned it into an art form in the last 4-5 years. I forget which make and model it was, but I was pricing out some car on a website, and you could get a blue car for, let's say $40k, but if you wanted a red car you had to also get heated leather seats, the deluxe navigation package, the deluxe safety package, different tires and hubcaps, and pay something like $46.5k. I'm fairly certain you just mix red dye into the paint rather than blue dye...
- Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
  > Some of the numbers, while true, create the false impression that you are required to play the F-150 truck game. This is exactly it. The average may have gone up, but there are STILL plenty of relatively low-cost sedans out there. And they're GOOD cars! A brand new Toyota Corolla is only a hair over $22K. Even the hybrid is just over $24.5K. And it'll get 50 mpg! Honda Civic starts at $24K.
- scruple 3y ago
  I paid $24k out the door for a Subaru CrossTrek in 2014. Crazy to see the price hasn't moved much despite a decade passing.
- Someone1234 3y ago
  You're right. But one thing to keep in mind, is that with full comprehensive insurance, you're also paying to cover other people's vehicles, so if the average price of a vehicle increases your premiums can too. My premiums have increases, while my vehicle has remained the same (and no tickets/claims/incidents).
- rainsford 3y ago
  Given that the article starts off with a story about someone at the lower end of the economic spectrum being unable to afford a car, it seems borderline misleading to then discuss car affordability in terms of the average new or used car price. As you suggested, the fact that the average new car sale is $49k in no way prevents you personally from buying something like a Civic, Corolla, or Impreza and getting a perfectly good new car for half the price. It's not even like housing, where there are supply issues making things unaffordable. Car makers offer cheaper models and would presumably make more of them if more people demanded them. Also while there is nothing wrong with spending $49k or more on a car, it's wild to me that this is the average new car sale price in the US considering the median household income is something like $75k. Spending an equivalent to 2/3 of your yearly income on a depreciating asset when there are perfectly reasonable cheaper alternatives does not seem reasonable as the rule rather than the exception. If you make a lot of money or like nice cars, sure, but as the case for the average buyer...wow.
jhallenworld 3y ago
It's always fascinating to see the cheapest new car. In the USA, this is the Nissan Versa for $16130. But outside the USA, we have the Renault Kwid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Kwid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Kwid ~$13,000 in Brazil.. Difficulty: 0 stars safety rating.. Or there is the Fiat Mobi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Mobi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Mobi
- murderfs 3y ago
  I laughed out loud when reading the wikipedia page: > Safety > The Kwid is equipped with rear drum brakes.[23][24]
  - monkeynotes 3y ago
    Rear drum brakes are actually very effective. Definitely just as safe as alternatives, they are less prone to brake fade so I'd choose them in the mountains. From the Google: "Drum brakes can provide more braking force than an equal diameter disc brake. Drum brakes last longer because drum brakes have increased friction contact area than a disc. Drum brakes are cheaper to manufacture than disc brakes. Rear drum brakes generate lower heat."
    - heisenbit 3y ago
      How can they generate less heat when the break function is to turn movement energy via friction into heat? Energy needs to go somewhere and vibration and usually noise are not enough to make much of a dent wrt. energy.
      - bluGill 3y ago
        Because they have more mass they do not get as hot for equal stopping force. However they generate the same amount of heat, it is just spread over more mass so it isn't as hot. That is also their downside: once they get hot they don't dissipate it as well and so they get brake fade faster in typical use.
monkeynotes 3y ago
Just wait and see what happens when charging infra becomes more expensive than existing gas infrastructure. I've anecdotally heard from Canadians that they are approximating diminishing gains having an electric car, running costs-wise at least.
- xcrunner529 3y ago
  If you’re charging constantly at stations and not your house, maybe. Otherwise it’s like running your dryer. So just FUD.
  - monkeynotes 3y ago
    So you think that the challenges keeping grid capacity and stability up with demand are FUD? I think they are reasonable concerns, and seeing early signs of that already here. Our power costs are on track to go up significantly over the coming years, mainly because of capacity. Building new clean, scalable energy is expensive, someone has to pay for that demand. I think these are very real, and reasonable problems on the horizon. And like I said, these costs are already being noticed. My power bill is going up by over 10% in the next two years for capacity reasons. They are paying people to put in more efficient electric heating, so we are using less and paying more. I know this is info about my own region but Europe is also heading toward these problems on a wider scale: https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/growing-demand-puts-eu-electricity-grid-under-pressure/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/gro... https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-sto... Also "Otherwise it’s like running your dryer". It is not, at all. If the cost of running my dryer goes up 10% that's not a big deal. Running my car at a 10% increased cost is significant. If my whole neighbourhood gets home at 5pm and plugs in, the grid would fall apart here.
    - mixmastamyk 3y ago
      We all can share in the costs of electricity, something centralized and 99% of us need, and that need isn't going away. Fewer of us need gasoline. E-cars almost always have charge scheduling built-in, to charge when cheapest. Here it is after 8 or 9PM for example.
ProllyInfamous 3y ago
I [attempt to] keep two vehicles maintained, for just myself, on account of one of them always malfunctioning.
- monkeynotes 3y ago
  Are they relatively new cars? I can't imagine doing this unless I had junkers. I know people driving Civics from 2010 that have no problems.
  - ProllyInfamous 3y ago
    ~2010 Subaru & Toyota One of them is actually fairly reliable (used as work truck); but I'll never buy another Subaru.
- tekla 3y ago
  What are you doing to your cars to make them malfunction? I don't recall my 80's cars having any significant issues outside of standard stuff and "has driven more than 250k miles" issues.
  - swozey 3y ago
    All the 80-90s car problems are intake stuff, IAC valves and all that stuff. I had so many cheap 85-95 Fords (Probe, Escort, Mustangs) and Preludes that all had pain in the ass idle air problems. The fords would always wind up dying at stop lights. Hondas I don't think got that bad but they'd rev up and down at lights, I guess keeping themselves running vs the Fords that I had to do it myself. I'm pretty sure my 85 Cherokee had idle problems too. That jeep was scary to get on the highway. SO slow.
Finnucane 3y ago
We just unloaded our 25-year-old Honda. It was getting to the point where maintenance was difficult because parts were no longer available. So we're officially car-free now. Probably just going to do zipcar or something like it when we need a car. For the amount we drive, there's no way it's worth even paying used car prices.
- roflchoppa 3y ago
  Interesting take, I’ve been buying 25 year old Hondas as we can still get parts and they are cheap as hell to race.
pupppet 3y ago
One of the worst side-effects of COVID is it gave all of these companies an excuse/opportunity to charge much more, and then when COVID was over they were like...let's not roll anything back and see if anyone notices.
- heliodor 3y ago
  Have you adjusted for inflation?
- xnx 3y ago
  Car prices are still much higher than before COVID, but they've been dropping significantly from their peak: https://site.manheim.com/en/services/consulting/used-vehicle-value-index.html https://site.manheim.com/en/services/consulting/used-vehicle...
- rmason 3y ago
  I recently bought a new SUV. I shopped entirely by email, never set foot into a dealership (except for the test drive) until signing the final papers. I emailed every dealer within 220 miles of my location. Half never even replied and the rest tried every trick in the book to get me to the dealership before they'd give me a price. My favorite story was an exchange with a salesman who quoted me $1,000 over MSRP. He said a year ago we were selling these at $10,000 over list price, I am saving you $9,000! I told him COVID is over and if he wanted the sale he'd have to get more competitive. My goal had been to buy 10% under list and though I failed to achieve that I did all right. Don't think I'd buy another vehicle any other way although it took a very frustrating seven weeks.
  - whartung 3y ago
    Do not discount the car buying service available from Costco. It's well worth investigating, and can make things pretty easy.
    - rmason 3y ago
      Car and Driver also runs a service though they didn't have any dealers participating here in Michigan. But I did much better than the prices they offer. But if you don't want to do any of the work, avoid the dealer and buy a little below list they're not a bad option.
rc_mob 3y ago
With my remote work now, I am strongly considering downgrading to becoming a one car family. Said expenses would be the biggest reason for this.
- webdood90 3y ago
  This is what my wife and I do in Denver. We actually bought an e-bike this past Black Friday to supplement and replace a lot of our trips.
AlgorithmicTime 3y ago
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deleted 3y ago
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bovermyer 3y ago
The next car I buy will almost certainly be from the 1980s if I can manage it. Specifically, a first-gen Nissan 300ZX. Partly, this is driven by personal interest in that particular car. However, I also see that there is still a healthy network of support for cars from before 2010. There are disadvantages besides the price to buying a newer car.
- chucksta 3y ago
  Bold, knowing current tech in a car is an issue, moving to an 80's hi-tech car is mind blowing. They are known for being loaded with all kinds of 1 off proprietary tech. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7JdE1Gq8IY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7JdE1Gq8IY <3 the car too though, and thought the same thing at one point
  - deleted 3y ago
    [deleted]
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    My small experience owning old "reliable" cars is that they still have more issues than something new-ish. Maybe they were designed and built tougher back then, but parts still have lifespans. Fuel economy might be worse too. 20 years is already old enough that it'd be more for fun than practicality to me. 1980s turbocharged sports car, that'd be awesome but probably not cheap to drive. A clean 300ZX is also pretty valuable today.
  - bovermyer 3y ago
    That video is about the second gen ZX, the one from the late 80s and early 90s. But yeah, they're not the easiest cars to work on. However, some of that is mitigated by advancements in fabrication technology in the last twenty years.
- jhallenworld 3y ago
  I have slowly rebuilt my wife's old 2000 VW Passat (B5 platform). 232K miles so far.. next year it's officially an antique, can get different plates for it. Some nice things about this car: Yes it has a computer, but from just before they serialized everything, so you can easily drop in a replacement (which I've done). It was used as a taxi in some countries, so spare parts are plentiful. The complete repair manual is available: https://www.ebay.com/itm/395132634978 https://www.ebay.com/itm/395132634978 I recently repainted it with Rustoleum from Home Depot using a roller (the clear coat had worn off, it looked horrible, but no rust otherwise).
vdaea 3y ago
Everywhere in the world (except China, etc but here they are making sure that bent lawmakers don't allow Chinese cars to be sold in Europe for instance) Car makers are making a huge, terrible mistake with all of this. Their greediness is making a new generation of potential car owners have to settle for inferior options such as public transportation. That influx of users will empower those alternatives until there really is no need for cars anymore. Of course the executives raising prices now won't be the same ones at the helm when the ship starts sinking.
- conductr 3y ago
  Your last sentence sums it up, quarterly earnings are king. I was having the conversation about the cost of soda/cola. It’s gone up significantly since Covid basically because they decided to test the elasticity of it and see how high prices would go. Turns out people are pretty addicted to their beverages of choice and they can charge a good deal more. But my feeling is, they’re eroding their pipeline of new consumers and over time this will backfire. Decades of marketing and branding being thrown away. https://www.vox.com/money/23979340/diet-coke-price-coca-cola-pepsi-inflation-walmart-costco https://www.vox.com/money/23979340/diet-coke-price-coca-cola...
- tfourb 3y ago
  Public transportation is hardly an "inferior option". If done well it can be cheaper, more convenient and quicker than using your own car. It all depends on the willingness to invest the capital needed to build a system people actually want to use.
swozey 3y ago
I have a 2018 Wrangler that has gone from 120 to 190/mo over the last 2-3 years. It has 12k miles, and is driven once every 1-3 months when I go offroading/camping, beyond that it sits in my private garage. I'm 39 but do have a minor wreck in 2020 i think. I usually have a multi-car discount that would take, say my $190 down to 160-170 or so for both cars, or maybe just add a bit to the total, it's usually a huge benefit. I just bought a 2018 Miata RF last week ($22k w/30k miles since its on topic) and it added $150 to my insurance. I can't believe it. Yes I quoted before hand and still did it, and shopped with an insurance aggregator (thezebra). Switching from Geico to Progressive saved me a little bit but not much. Also, anyone who loves sports cars and hasn't driven a 4th gen (I haven't driven earlier) miata.. do it. It's so fun and it's not 500hp like my last sports car that was so fast I was way over the speed limit in 2nd-3rd. I'm redlining the RF constantly and still getting 28mpg. I get to hit 1-4 to hit 60 I think. It's a really fun active drive and I can't get any body roll at all (mine has Tein coilovers). My friend works for an insurance company and it's all the car thefts going on he said.
- muaytimbo 3y ago
  Live in NH, no insurance required.
  - swozey 3y ago
    That actually sounds horrible and even worse than Florida not having car inspections so half the cars on the road look like they're about to fall apart. I thought no inspections was awesome when I moved there (I build race cars) until I drove around and realized what that really meant. Nobody taking care of their cars. I saw a ton of little trucks with window unit air conditioners built on top. Mad max there.
    - muaytimbo 3y ago
      I've seen the same thing with regards to A/C units in vehicles in Manhattan. It's actually great, rates in NH are low because residents need to be conviced to purchase instead of being forced to subsidize insurance companies.
throwaway44773 3y ago
Those are the expected, if not intended, consequences of environmental legislation looking to decrease CO2 emissions. I can live with that. The real scandal is that we're not building out public transit so that people do not need to own a car in the US.
- BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
  Is there evidence that’s the reason? I assumed corporate greed.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    Corporate greed meant they got an exception to environmental rules for SUVs, which they then sell for more profit.
  - throwaway44773 3y ago
    Saying that prices rise because of corporate greed is the same as saying that fires burn because of oxygen. Sure, it's true, but it's not helpful because you cannot stop people from being greedy. What is useful is to look at why corporations are able to greedily increase their prices unchecked. That's usually because of some imbalance in supply and demand: in this case, why does the demand outstrip the supply? There are multiple reasons, but one of them is that governments have outlawed the sale of new ICE vehicles for 2035, increasing demand on the small supply of electric vehicles available. This has also caused manufacturers to reduce their investment in ICE vehicles, thereby further reducing supply of these vehicles, thereby increasing prices. Furthermore, electric vehicles are (at least at this moment) more expensive to manufacture.
- bequanna 3y ago
  > The real scandal is that we're not building out public transit so that people do not need to own a car in the US. Is there evidence that a large number of people actually want more public transportation? If we're talking about commuters, most people who live in suburbs and commute already have the option to drive a short distance, park and ride a bus to their jobs.
xnx 3y ago
This article doesn't seem to account for total cost of ownership over the lifetime of the vehicle, so it's not very useful or even misleading. If a car: last longer, needs fewer repairs, is more fuel efficient, and resells for more, it could be much cheaper per mile.
- bequanna 3y ago
  Anecdotally, I've heard many stories from people who have bought new cars post-Covid and has serious issues <1 year of ownership. Quality seems to be decreasing. I found many similar stories: https://www.newsweek.com/new-vehicle-quality-plummets-wake-pandemic-1718915 https://www.newsweek.com/new-vehicle-quality-plummets-wake-p...
  - samtho 3y ago
    > Quality seems to be decreasing. I found many similar stories This is a drum that mass media beats every few years because it’s low hanging fruit. It all comes down to the survivorship bias. In 10 years, we’re going to see a lot of these currently-new cars and admire how many of them are still on the road. In reality, the lemons were weeded out, poorer-selling models were cut and forgotten, and what is left is solidly in the middle of the bathtub curve[0]. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve
    - bequanna 3y ago
      The below is from my link. These are qualitative, objective metrics. Not anecdotal or qualitative. > Compared to the 2021 IQS results, the 2022 version say an 11 percent increase in problems per 100 (PP100) vehicles, which is 18 PP100 worse than last year. That moves the needle to an average of 180 PP100 across the industry.
- bluGill 3y ago
  I think this is the major driver of higher priced cars: people want luxury. In 1970 if your car got 100k miles you had bragging rights despite the car having rust holes and burning almost as much oil as gas. In that world buying a basic new car as smart: it wouldn't last long. These days anyone who would settle for a basic car can buy a use car with more luxury features and it will still be reliable for a long time. As such car makers have to focus on those willing to buy luxury.
_yb2s 3y ago
People like to complain about how expensive car ownership is in the USA but ignore the fact that poor people and teenagers still manage to own cars. You can still buy a 30-40 year old Volvo for $1-2k on Craigslist that will be reliable and safe for decades of hard use with basic maintenance anyone can learn to DIY for a few hundred $ per year. What people are actually complaining about is that the status symbol of owning a newer or expensive looking vehicle is expensive. The fact that older vehicles massively depreciate in value even when still serviceable is a massive benefit to those on a budget. I toy with the idea of going car free to save money, but at the end of the day, owning older cars I maintain myself costs me next to nothing.
- callalex 3y ago
  I think it’s been a while since you went car shopping on Craigslist. The cheap junk that might not run tomorrow is still in the $8k+ range these days.
  - _yb2s 3y ago
    No, buying and sellling cars on CL is a hobby of mine, I'm into old European cars and do it a lot. I recently bought an always garaged since new, like new looking 100k mile Porsche Boxster with great maintenance records for $8k, in the SF Bay area on Craigslist. It wasn't a bad deal, but not really a steal either- that's about what they go for. It's a reliable car, and my daily commuter now. The other elementary school kids getting dropped off at school in new $100k Teslas think we're crazy rich dropping off my kid in a Porsche. I often buy "nice" cars in the 8-10k range, not the cars with cosmetic issues for super cheap. Since Volvo was the example I gave, I just did an SF Bay area search for "volvo" under $3k, and it came up with 61 results. A few look terrible, but about a third, including some of the cheaper ones look to be well maintained daily drivers with some cosmetic issues like dents or peeling paint. Personally, I'd recommend the 740 and 940 models, they are crazy cheap, but extremely good cars. For a deal, look for cars that are well maintained with good maintenance records, but have high mileage and/or cosmetic issues. Also look at car enthusiast forums instead of Craigslist. They often have cars where hobbyists dump a ton of money into them to keep older cars in really top shape.
- 3y ago
arbuge 3y ago
> A replacement car is out of the question, because she barely has enough money for rent. But even if Luna had the funds to go shopping, it’s unlikely she’d find anything remotely reasonable. The average new car today sells for nearly $49,000, and the average used car lists at more than $26,000 – representing a 31% increase for new cars and nearly 40% increase for used cars since 2020, according to data from the industry group Cox Automotive. Pretty superficial analysis. Averages are swayed by expensive cars and there many new cars available in the $20k-$30k range, i.e. well below $49k. The writer seems to think that those vehicles, which include things like Toyota Corollas, lower-end Camrys, etc. aren't "remotely reasonable".
_thisdot 3y ago
It's amazing how car prices vary around the world with taxation. Especially taking into account the purchasing power parity. The cheapest cars in US are sold as entry-level luxury cars in a place like India. The entry level cars in India are deemed to cheap to be even considered selling in the US. For instance, a Hyundai Venue costs $20k in the US. Taking into account the PPP, an Indian has to spend nearly $80k to own the same car. Same logic applies for phones. Your $1000 iPhone cost me nearly $4000 (again, not currency conversion but PPP). Not everything is too bad though. App prices, books, etc are usually adjusted for PPP. Spotify Premium costs us $2/month. Books that cost $400 in the US usually cost us $5-$20.
- WheatMillington 3y ago
  Yes as a New Zealander it's depressing following US-based car discussions. Cars are sooo cheap in the USA. Not to mention fuel, being roughly half what we pay.
bluGill 3y ago
> sapping her earnings with hours of unpaid commute time. This is the real story here - transit should not be so much slower than a private car that it saps time. It is in most places, but a great transit system wouldn't be like that.
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strangattractor 3y ago
One way to mitigate the Insurance expense is to report the milage actually used. My insurer assumes 12K per year which is a lot more that the 7K miles per year I actually drive. GIECO at one time let me report this via their web interface but because of research like this [1] - they make me hunt down a form sign it and return a copy. The aggravates me greatly and this research (like much of the social science research) has been shown to be unreproducible [2]. [1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1209746109#:~:text=These%20results%20suggest%20that%20the,having%20no%20signature%20at%20all https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1209746109#:~:text=The.... [2]. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7132248/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7132248/
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Gud 3y ago
Having gas guzzling cars infesting every street is not how I imagined the future. It reminds me more of Idiocracy than Star Trek. There are inspiring examples around the globe: my favourite systems are in Switzerland, where the trains are on time and frequent, and Luxembourg, where public transport is… publicly funded(and modern). Additionally, it seems to me a personal 1-5 tonne vehicle is a bit excessive and a huge waste of real estate.

54 points by macleginn 3y ago

Spoiler alert: not just cars

Some of the numbers, while true, create the false impression that you are required to play the F-150 truck game. In fact, I recently paid under 30K for a brand new Mazda CX-5 with some extras. There was some insurance premium increase, but relatively small considering that my previous car was already 10 years old. I could have bought a new Subaru Crosstrek, quoted to me for 26K, which is far from a barebones car - a new KIA Rio S can be had for under 20K. What's happening is that people are seeing more value out of bigger and more expensive cars, so there is a preferences shift happening. Also, think of inflation. 22 years ago I bought a new Honda Civic EX with manual transmission for 18K, which would be around 30K today. This car would be unthinkable in today's market - barebones radio, stick shift, no camera, no screen and noisy engine. If you have the Crosstrek example in mind, cars are actually getting cheaper, at least in terms of cost-benefit (like computers got cheaper as technology improved).

everdrive 3y ago
>This car would be unthinkable in today's market - barebones radio, stick shift, no camera, no screen and noisy engine. All I really want are bare-bones vehicles. I had to practically fight with the Nissan dealership to get their base-model trim. I wish manufacturers would still offer basic vehicles.
- ptmcc 3y ago
  Such a vehicle is impossible to offer even if they wanted to (they don't) because things like backup cameras and other safety-related equipment are legally required. Once you require a camera, you require a screen. Once you have a screen say goodbye to your barebones radio. Et cetera. But automakers would rather you sell you a high-margin truck or SUV than a barebones economy car, anyway. And hardly anyone would buy them even if they did offer them, as we've observed in the decline of sales of regular sedans and hatchbacks in the US over the past couple decades.
  - kube-system 3y ago
    > Once you have a screen say goodbye to your barebones radio. This is not necessarily the case. When backup cameras were first mandated some manufacturers put the screens in the rear view mirror. The reason everyone has a screen on the dash these days is because new car buyers are often demanding smartphone integrations.
    - kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
      If they have to add $100 in mandated components they're going to delete $100 in componentry that can be shifted to the screen. Knobs cost money.
      - kube-system 3y ago
        If it was purely penny pinching, they could have stuck with the cheaper smaller screens in the rear view mirror and put a blank panel in the dash instead of a stereo, like base model vehicles of the past sometimes had. But most automakers are spending a couple of extra bucks on a nicer and more expensive screen in the dash because new car buyers don't want to spend new car money on a car with a dashboard that looks like it's from 2001, and it doesn't make sense to save $50 on a car if you can't sell it. Not long ago, you used to be able to buy new cars without AC, power steering, power windows, power locks, automatic transmissions, painted bumpers, stereos, passenger side mirrors, cupholders, center consoles, etc. And it is still legal to do so. But consumer preferences have changed.
        kevin_thibedeau 3y ago
        Wire harnesses are expensive. Running a video signal over the roof uses more wire than keeping it all in the dash.
        kube-system 3y ago
        They are, but not really that much. Automakers frequently run harnesses with unused wires for lower trims because the expense to inventory multiple parts is more than the wire costs. So it isn't so expensive that they don't waste some wire. On many models there's already a harness run to the front of the roof for other reasons, (garage door opener, compass, safety systems, dome lights, map lights, visor lights, mirror dimmer, microphone) so the labor and assembly costs are mostly already happening anyway. We're talking tens of pennies or single digit dollars of additional cost in material at most. If we pick a popular vehicle with this feature, a 2010 F150, there's a 16 pin connector there, with 12 wires populated. 2 are for the camera. Does it cost more than running 10 wires there? Yes. Was it so much that Ford didn't actually ship the car that way? No. https://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f38/470443d1489862009-2010-f150-video-cap-mirror-16-pin-plug-2010-rear-view_1.jpg https://www.f150forum.com/attachments/f38/470443d1489862009-...
- manchego 3y ago
  I agree that buyers should have the option to purchase simpler cars. But I think backup cameras are too valuable of a safety improvement to leave out. About a year ago I saw a toddler very likely saved by the backup camera and proximity sensor. This is of course just anecdotal, but it sold me.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    Wouldn't the proximity sensor be enough? Sounds cheaper and much less prone to unwanted surveillance.
    - manchego 3y ago
      Yeah, I guess then you don't need a screen for display. And to be honest the proximity sensor may have had the greater effect in the situation I referenced. I could hear it beeping from where I was about 30 feet from the car.
- lwansbrough 3y ago
  I really wish the Hilux Champ was available in North America. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Hilux_Champ https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_Hilux_Champ
- hedgehog 3y ago
  I think the base models are there mostly to be able to advertise a more attractive starting price. I got the base trim of my car but anecdotally the dealership was getting very few of them and on the road I also see very few.
  - everdrive 3y ago
    I did manage to get a base model Nissan Frontier. The features it has and lacks are pretty interesting. It's not manual adjusting mirror -- and I don't mean it's got a little knob on the inside. You roll the window down, and then push the mirror itself with your hands to adjust it. I don't mind it being so basic, but it's interesting that this exists, but not the option for manual locks or manual windows.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Manual locks require new jigs on the assembly line for the different parts. Since most people want automatic locks they can save the cost of building those jigs and the inventory management to go with them by not offering it. You only get something as an option if the profit of having the with and without version is more than just offering the "better" option to everyone.
- whartung 3y ago
  If you want a bare bones car, you would probably have good luck getting a 2 year old vehicle from a rental fleet. Those tend to be pretty bare bones vehicles. It was funny, I rented a truck from Home Depot. It was brand new, less than 100 miles on the clock. And, yea, it was lucky to have paint. Automatic transmission, radio, and air conditioner were the top drawer items. Imagine taking 2 knobs, perhaps 1" in diameter, and AM/FM button, and a LED matrix display big enough to display 105.5 and a "stereo" and AM/FM light. That's how big the radio was on this otherwise large dashboard. Vinyl floors, vinyl bench seat, crank windows. And there's something to it. There's a simplicity having a hot <-> cold slider and a fan speed knob versus arguing with a "climate control" system. It's quite difficult to find stripped models on the dealer lot. They'd much rather upsell you the sunroof you don't want because "well, that's all we have". I've never had a real problem ordering a car, just have to be willing to wait for it, but they've all been domestic. 3 of my last 4 cars were ordered to my spec.
  - hot_gril 3y ago
    Best new car dash/interior I've seen was inside a U-Haul. I'm holding onto my old cars for now. If/when EVs become default, that'll be a compelling reason to buy a new car.
globular-toast 3y ago
The increase in larger vehicles on the road is making it increasingly unpleasant and unsafe to drive/ride smaller vehicles or use no vehicle at all. It's technically not required to join in, but it essentially is. The only way to avoid the unpleasantness is to join in and get one yourself.
- gcnnbdff 3y ago
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mbfg 3y ago
i bought a 2005 Ram 2500 for $25,000, today it would cost minimally $75,000. I actually need a truck to haul hay every week. i dread when the thing rots apart. I will have no answer.
- randomdata 3y ago
  Even if we assume your truck is now worthless, that's only $1,300 per year. More realistically, assuming you have kept it in reasonable condition, it is probably worth around $8k now, or $900 per year. That's nothing in the grand scheme of things. In your case, that's only $17 per load of hay. Approximately one small bale per load pays for it. That still leaves a lot of meat for the truck to haul – especially a 2500. It is not surprising that the price of new trucks has skyrocketed. I too bought a truck for my farm in the same era for around the same price and I'm glad I did, because in hindsight it was an absolute steal. The ROI it has provided has been off the charts. Again, it is not surprising that new trucks have gone up in price to close the gap. Fantastic investment opportunities never last.
  - bluGill 3y ago
    I bought my F350 15 years ago for $10k, if is worth 7k now. (1999, 7.8 diesel engine). However I have also paid $1000/year to ensure it, which for as little as I use it works out to nearly $.50/mile. It hasn't been a great investment (as a diesel it doesn't like to start in winter), but I can never find anyone to rent me a truck when I need one so it stays (I can rent a truck shaped vehicle with fine print that doesn't let me use it for what I want a truck for)
- tfourb 3y ago
  Not sure how much hay we are talking, but why not buy a smaller used car with a tow hitch and a trailer? Trailers cost a fraction of what you pay in markup on a pickup over a small car and most cars are more than capable of towing a small to mid-sized trailer. Bonus: you can unhitch the trailer and have a way easier time fitting into parking spaces ;-)
  - 3y ago
karaterobot 3y ago
I think this is basically right. But the other part of it is that manufacturers actually have gotten better at pricing, if better is defined as getting people to pay a little bit more than they expected. Locking pretty important stuff behind higher trim packages, or even just making it an overpriced add-on, for example. It's upselling, sure, which they've always done (cf. all the 80s jokes about rustproofing and undercarriage protection). But they've really turned it into an art form in the last 4-5 years. I forget which make and model it was, but I was pricing out some car on a website, and you could get a blue car for, let's say $40k, but if you wanted a red car you had to also get heated leather seats, the deluxe navigation package, the deluxe safety package, different tires and hubcaps, and pay something like $46.5k. I'm fairly certain you just mix red dye into the paint rather than blue dye...
Sohcahtoa82 3y ago
> Some of the numbers, while true, create the false impression that you are required to play the F-150 truck game. This is exactly it. The average may have gone up, but there are STILL plenty of relatively low-cost sedans out there. And they're GOOD cars! A brand new Toyota Corolla is only a hair over $22K. Even the hybrid is just over $24.5K. And it'll get 50 mpg! Honda Civic starts at $24K.
scruple 3y ago
I paid $24k out the door for a Subaru CrossTrek in 2014. Crazy to see the price hasn't moved much despite a decade passing.
Someone1234 3y ago
You're right. But one thing to keep in mind, is that with full comprehensive insurance, you're also paying to cover other people's vehicles, so if the average price of a vehicle increases your premiums can too. My premiums have increases, while my vehicle has remained the same (and no tickets/claims/incidents).
rainsford 3y ago
Given that the article starts off with a story about someone at the lower end of the economic spectrum being unable to afford a car, it seems borderline misleading to then discuss car affordability in terms of the average new or used car price. As you suggested, the fact that the average new car sale is $49k in no way prevents you personally from buying something like a Civic, Corolla, or Impreza and getting a perfectly good new car for half the price. It's not even like housing, where there are supply issues making things unaffordable. Car makers offer cheaper models and would presumably make more of them if more people demanded them. Also while there is nothing wrong with spending $49k or more on a car, it's wild to me that this is the average new car sale price in the US considering the median household income is something like $75k. Spending an equivalent to 2/3 of your yearly income on a depreciating asset when there are perfectly reasonable cheaper alternatives does not seem reasonable as the rule rather than the exception. If you make a lot of money or like nice cars, sure, but as the case for the average buyer...wow.

jhallenworld 3y ago

It's always fascinating to see the cheapest new car. In the USA, this is the Nissan Versa for $16130. But outside the USA, we have the Renault Kwid: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Kwid https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renault_Kwid ~$13,000 in Brazil.. Difficulty: 0 stars safety rating.. Or there is the Fiat Mobi: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Mobi https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fiat_Mobi

murderfs 3y ago
I laughed out loud when reading the wikipedia page: > Safety > The Kwid is equipped with rear drum brakes.[23][24]
- monkeynotes 3y ago
  Rear drum brakes are actually very effective. Definitely just as safe as alternatives, they are less prone to brake fade so I'd choose them in the mountains. From the Google: "Drum brakes can provide more braking force than an equal diameter disc brake. Drum brakes last longer because drum brakes have increased friction contact area than a disc. Drum brakes are cheaper to manufacture than disc brakes. Rear drum brakes generate lower heat."
  - heisenbit 3y ago
    How can they generate less heat when the break function is to turn movement energy via friction into heat? Energy needs to go somewhere and vibration and usually noise are not enough to make much of a dent wrt. energy.
    - bluGill 3y ago
      Because they have more mass they do not get as hot for equal stopping force. However they generate the same amount of heat, it is just spread over more mass so it isn't as hot. That is also their downside: once they get hot they don't dissipate it as well and so they get brake fade faster in typical use.

monkeynotes 3y ago

Just wait and see what happens when charging infra becomes more expensive than existing gas infrastructure. I've anecdotally heard from Canadians that they are approximating diminishing gains having an electric car, running costs-wise at least.

xcrunner529 3y ago
If you’re charging constantly at stations and not your house, maybe. Otherwise it’s like running your dryer. So just FUD.
- monkeynotes 3y ago
  So you think that the challenges keeping grid capacity and stability up with demand are FUD? I think they are reasonable concerns, and seeing early signs of that already here. Our power costs are on track to go up significantly over the coming years, mainly because of capacity. Building new clean, scalable energy is expensive, someone has to pay for that demand. I think these are very real, and reasonable problems on the horizon. And like I said, these costs are already being noticed. My power bill is going up by over 10% in the next two years for capacity reasons. They are paying people to put in more efficient electric heating, so we are using less and paying more. I know this is info about my own region but Europe is also heading toward these problems on a wider scale: https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/growing-demand-puts-eu-electricity-grid-under-pressure/ https://www.euractiv.com/section/energy-environment/news/gro... https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-stories/can-grid-cope-extra-demand-electric-cars https://www.nationalgrid.com/stories/journey-to-net-zero-sto... Also "Otherwise it’s like running your dryer". It is not, at all. If the cost of running my dryer goes up 10% that's not a big deal. Running my car at a 10% increased cost is significant. If my whole neighbourhood gets home at 5pm and plugs in, the grid would fall apart here.
  - mixmastamyk 3y ago
    We all can share in the costs of electricity, something centralized and 99% of us need, and that need isn't going away. Fewer of us need gasoline. E-cars almost always have charge scheduling built-in, to charge when cheapest. Here it is after 8 or 9PM for example.

ProllyInfamous 3y ago

I [attempt to] keep two vehicles maintained, for just myself, on account of one of them always malfunctioning.

monkeynotes 3y ago
Are they relatively new cars? I can't imagine doing this unless I had junkers. I know people driving Civics from 2010 that have no problems.
- ProllyInfamous 3y ago
  ~2010 Subaru & Toyota One of them is actually fairly reliable (used as work truck); but I'll never buy another Subaru.
tekla 3y ago
What are you doing to your cars to make them malfunction? I don't recall my 80's cars having any significant issues outside of standard stuff and "has driven more than 250k miles" issues.
- swozey 3y ago
  All the 80-90s car problems are intake stuff, IAC valves and all that stuff. I had so many cheap 85-95 Fords (Probe, Escort, Mustangs) and Preludes that all had pain in the ass idle air problems. The fords would always wind up dying at stop lights. Hondas I don't think got that bad but they'd rev up and down at lights, I guess keeping themselves running vs the Fords that I had to do it myself. I'm pretty sure my 85 Cherokee had idle problems too. That jeep was scary to get on the highway. SO slow.

Finnucane 3y ago

We just unloaded our 25-year-old Honda. It was getting to the point where maintenance was difficult because parts were no longer available. So we're officially car-free now. Probably just going to do zipcar or something like it when we need a car. For the amount we drive, there's no way it's worth even paying used car prices.

roflchoppa 3y ago
Interesting take, I’ve been buying 25 year old Hondas as we can still get parts and they are cheap as hell to race.

pupppet 3y ago

One of the worst side-effects of COVID is it gave all of these companies an excuse/opportunity to charge much more, and then when COVID was over they were like...let's not roll anything back and see if anyone notices.

heliodor 3y ago
Have you adjusted for inflation?
xnx 3y ago
Car prices are still much higher than before COVID, but they've been dropping significantly from their peak: https://site.manheim.com/en/services/consulting/used-vehicle-value-index.html https://site.manheim.com/en/services/consulting/used-vehicle...
rmason 3y ago
I recently bought a new SUV. I shopped entirely by email, never set foot into a dealership (except for the test drive) until signing the final papers. I emailed every dealer within 220 miles of my location. Half never even replied and the rest tried every trick in the book to get me to the dealership before they'd give me a price. My favorite story was an exchange with a salesman who quoted me $1,000 over MSRP. He said a year ago we were selling these at $10,000 over list price, I am saving you $9,000! I told him COVID is over and if he wanted the sale he'd have to get more competitive. My goal had been to buy 10% under list and though I failed to achieve that I did all right. Don't think I'd buy another vehicle any other way although it took a very frustrating seven weeks.
- whartung 3y ago
  Do not discount the car buying service available from Costco. It's well worth investigating, and can make things pretty easy.
  - rmason 3y ago
    Car and Driver also runs a service though they didn't have any dealers participating here in Michigan. But I did much better than the prices they offer. But if you don't want to do any of the work, avoid the dealer and buy a little below list they're not a bad option.

rc_mob 3y ago

With my remote work now, I am strongly considering downgrading to becoming a one car family. Said expenses would be the biggest reason for this.

webdood90 3y ago
This is what my wife and I do in Denver. We actually bought an e-bike this past Black Friday to supplement and replace a lot of our trips.

AlgorithmicTime 3y ago

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bovermyer 3y ago

The next car I buy will almost certainly be from the 1980s if I can manage it. Specifically, a first-gen Nissan 300ZX. Partly, this is driven by personal interest in that particular car. However, I also see that there is still a healthy network of support for cars from before 2010. There are disadvantages besides the price to buying a newer car.

chucksta 3y ago
Bold, knowing current tech in a car is an issue, moving to an 80's hi-tech car is mind blowing. They are known for being loaded with all kinds of 1 off proprietary tech. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7JdE1Gq8IY https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h7JdE1Gq8IY <3 the car too though, and thought the same thing at one point
- deleted 3y ago
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- hot_gril 3y ago
  My small experience owning old "reliable" cars is that they still have more issues than something new-ish. Maybe they were designed and built tougher back then, but parts still have lifespans. Fuel economy might be worse too. 20 years is already old enough that it'd be more for fun than practicality to me. 1980s turbocharged sports car, that'd be awesome but probably not cheap to drive. A clean 300ZX is also pretty valuable today.
- bovermyer 3y ago
  That video is about the second gen ZX, the one from the late 80s and early 90s. But yeah, they're not the easiest cars to work on. However, some of that is mitigated by advancements in fabrication technology in the last twenty years.
jhallenworld 3y ago
I have slowly rebuilt my wife's old 2000 VW Passat (B5 platform). 232K miles so far.. next year it's officially an antique, can get different plates for it. Some nice things about this car: Yes it has a computer, but from just before they serialized everything, so you can easily drop in a replacement (which I've done). It was used as a taxi in some countries, so spare parts are plentiful. The complete repair manual is available: https://www.ebay.com/itm/395132634978 https://www.ebay.com/itm/395132634978 I recently repainted it with Rustoleum from Home Depot using a roller (the clear coat had worn off, it looked horrible, but no rust otherwise).

vdaea 3y ago

Everywhere in the world (except China, etc but here they are making sure that bent lawmakers don't allow Chinese cars to be sold in Europe for instance) Car makers are making a huge, terrible mistake with all of this. Their greediness is making a new generation of potential car owners have to settle for inferior options such as public transportation. That influx of users will empower those alternatives until there really is no need for cars anymore. Of course the executives raising prices now won't be the same ones at the helm when the ship starts sinking.

conductr 3y ago
Your last sentence sums it up, quarterly earnings are king. I was having the conversation about the cost of soda/cola. It’s gone up significantly since Covid basically because they decided to test the elasticity of it and see how high prices would go. Turns out people are pretty addicted to their beverages of choice and they can charge a good deal more. But my feeling is, they’re eroding their pipeline of new consumers and over time this will backfire. Decades of marketing and branding being thrown away. https://www.vox.com/money/23979340/diet-coke-price-coca-cola-pepsi-inflation-walmart-costco https://www.vox.com/money/23979340/diet-coke-price-coca-cola...
tfourb 3y ago
Public transportation is hardly an "inferior option". If done well it can be cheaper, more convenient and quicker than using your own car. It all depends on the willingness to invest the capital needed to build a system people actually want to use.

swozey 3y ago

I have a 2018 Wrangler that has gone from 120 to 190/mo over the last 2-3 years. It has 12k miles, and is driven once every 1-3 months when I go offroading/camping, beyond that it sits in my private garage. I'm 39 but do have a minor wreck in 2020 i think. I usually have a multi-car discount that would take, say my $190 down to 160-170 or so for both cars, or maybe just add a bit to the total, it's usually a huge benefit. I just bought a 2018 Miata RF last week ($22k w/30k miles since its on topic) and it added $150 to my insurance. I can't believe it. Yes I quoted before hand and still did it, and shopped with an insurance aggregator (thezebra). Switching from Geico to Progressive saved me a little bit but not much. Also, anyone who loves sports cars and hasn't driven a 4th gen (I haven't driven earlier) miata.. do it. It's so fun and it's not 500hp like my last sports car that was so fast I was way over the speed limit in 2nd-3rd. I'm redlining the RF constantly and still getting 28mpg. I get to hit 1-4 to hit 60 I think. It's a really fun active drive and I can't get any body roll at all (mine has Tein coilovers). My friend works for an insurance company and it's all the car thefts going on he said.

muaytimbo 3y ago
Live in NH, no insurance required.
- swozey 3y ago
  That actually sounds horrible and even worse than Florida not having car inspections so half the cars on the road look like they're about to fall apart. I thought no inspections was awesome when I moved there (I build race cars) until I drove around and realized what that really meant. Nobody taking care of their cars. I saw a ton of little trucks with window unit air conditioners built on top. Mad max there.
  - muaytimbo 3y ago
    I've seen the same thing with regards to A/C units in vehicles in Manhattan. It's actually great, rates in NH are low because residents need to be conviced to purchase instead of being forced to subsidize insurance companies.

throwaway44773 3y ago

Those are the expected, if not intended, consequences of environmental legislation looking to decrease CO2 emissions. I can live with that. The real scandal is that we're not building out public transit so that people do not need to own a car in the US.

BriggyDwiggs42 3y ago
Is there evidence that’s the reason? I assumed corporate greed.
- bluGill 3y ago
  Corporate greed meant they got an exception to environmental rules for SUVs, which they then sell for more profit.
- throwaway44773 3y ago
  Saying that prices rise because of corporate greed is the same as saying that fires burn because of oxygen. Sure, it's true, but it's not helpful because you cannot stop people from being greedy. What is useful is to look at why corporations are able to greedily increase their prices unchecked. That's usually because of some imbalance in supply and demand: in this case, why does the demand outstrip the supply? There are multiple reasons, but one of them is that governments have outlawed the sale of new ICE vehicles for 2035, increasing demand on the small supply of electric vehicles available. This has also caused manufacturers to reduce their investment in ICE vehicles, thereby further reducing supply of these vehicles, thereby increasing prices. Furthermore, electric vehicles are (at least at this moment) more expensive to manufacture.
bequanna 3y ago
> The real scandal is that we're not building out public transit so that people do not need to own a car in the US. Is there evidence that a large number of people actually want more public transportation? If we're talking about commuters, most people who live in suburbs and commute already have the option to drive a short distance, park and ride a bus to their jobs.

xnx 3y ago

This article doesn't seem to account for total cost of ownership over the lifetime of the vehicle, so it's not very useful or even misleading. If a car: last longer, needs fewer repairs, is more fuel efficient, and resells for more, it could be much cheaper per mile.

bequanna 3y ago
Anecdotally, I've heard many stories from people who have bought new cars post-Covid and has serious issues <1 year of ownership. Quality seems to be decreasing. I found many similar stories: https://www.newsweek.com/new-vehicle-quality-plummets-wake-pandemic-1718915 https://www.newsweek.com/new-vehicle-quality-plummets-wake-p...
- samtho 3y ago
  > Quality seems to be decreasing. I found many similar stories This is a drum that mass media beats every few years because it’s low hanging fruit. It all comes down to the survivorship bias. In 10 years, we’re going to see a lot of these currently-new cars and admire how many of them are still on the road. In reality, the lemons were weeded out, poorer-selling models were cut and forgotten, and what is left is solidly in the middle of the bathtub curve[0]. [0]: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bathtub_curve
  - bequanna 3y ago
    The below is from my link. These are qualitative, objective metrics. Not anecdotal or qualitative. > Compared to the 2021 IQS results, the 2022 version say an 11 percent increase in problems per 100 (PP100) vehicles, which is 18 PP100 worse than last year. That moves the needle to an average of 180 PP100 across the industry.
bluGill 3y ago
I think this is the major driver of higher priced cars: people want luxury. In 1970 if your car got 100k miles you had bragging rights despite the car having rust holes and burning almost as much oil as gas. In that world buying a basic new car as smart: it wouldn't last long. These days anyone who would settle for a basic car can buy a use car with more luxury features and it will still be reliable for a long time. As such car makers have to focus on those willing to buy luxury.

_yb2s 3y ago

People like to complain about how expensive car ownership is in the USA but ignore the fact that poor people and teenagers still manage to own cars. You can still buy a 30-40 year old Volvo for $1-2k on Craigslist that will be reliable and safe for decades of hard use with basic maintenance anyone can learn to DIY for a few hundred $ per year. What people are actually complaining about is that the status symbol of owning a newer or expensive looking vehicle is expensive. The fact that older vehicles massively depreciate in value even when still serviceable is a massive benefit to those on a budget. I toy with the idea of going car free to save money, but at the end of the day, owning older cars I maintain myself costs me next to nothing.

callalex 3y ago
I think it’s been a while since you went car shopping on Craigslist. The cheap junk that might not run tomorrow is still in the $8k+ range these days.
- _yb2s 3y ago
  No, buying and sellling cars on CL is a hobby of mine, I'm into old European cars and do it a lot. I recently bought an always garaged since new, like new looking 100k mile Porsche Boxster with great maintenance records for $8k, in the SF Bay area on Craigslist. It wasn't a bad deal, but not really a steal either- that's about what they go for. It's a reliable car, and my daily commuter now. The other elementary school kids getting dropped off at school in new $100k Teslas think we're crazy rich dropping off my kid in a Porsche. I often buy "nice" cars in the 8-10k range, not the cars with cosmetic issues for super cheap. Since Volvo was the example I gave, I just did an SF Bay area search for "volvo" under $3k, and it came up with 61 results. A few look terrible, but about a third, including some of the cheaper ones look to be well maintained daily drivers with some cosmetic issues like dents or peeling paint. Personally, I'd recommend the 740 and 940 models, they are crazy cheap, but extremely good cars. For a deal, look for cars that are well maintained with good maintenance records, but have high mileage and/or cosmetic issues. Also look at car enthusiast forums instead of Craigslist. They often have cars where hobbyists dump a ton of money into them to keep older cars in really top shape.
3y ago

arbuge 3y ago

> A replacement car is out of the question, because she barely has enough money for rent. But even if Luna had the funds to go shopping, it’s unlikely she’d find anything remotely reasonable. The average new car today sells for nearly $49,000, and the average used car lists at more than $26,000 – representing a 31% increase for new cars and nearly 40% increase for used cars since 2020, according to data from the industry group Cox Automotive. Pretty superficial analysis. Averages are swayed by expensive cars and there many new cars available in the $20k-$30k range, i.e. well below $49k. The writer seems to think that those vehicles, which include things like Toyota Corollas, lower-end Camrys, etc. aren't "remotely reasonable".

_thisdot 3y ago

It's amazing how car prices vary around the world with taxation. Especially taking into account the purchasing power parity. The cheapest cars in US are sold as entry-level luxury cars in a place like India. The entry level cars in India are deemed to cheap to be even considered selling in the US. For instance, a Hyundai Venue costs $20k in the US. Taking into account the PPP, an Indian has to spend nearly $80k to own the same car. Same logic applies for phones. Your $1000 iPhone cost me nearly $4000 (again, not currency conversion but PPP). Not everything is too bad though. App prices, books, etc are usually adjusted for PPP. Spotify Premium costs us $2/month. Books that cost $400 in the US usually cost us $5-$20.

WheatMillington 3y ago
Yes as a New Zealander it's depressing following US-based car discussions. Cars are sooo cheap in the USA. Not to mention fuel, being roughly half what we pay.

bluGill 3y ago

> sapping her earnings with hours of unpaid commute time. This is the real story here - transit should not be so much slower than a private car that it saps time. It is in most places, but a great transit system wouldn't be like that.

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strangattractor 3y ago

One way to mitigate the Insurance expense is to report the milage actually used. My insurer assumes 12K per year which is a lot more that the 7K miles per year I actually drive. GIECO at one time let me report this via their web interface but because of research like this [1] - they make me hunt down a form sign it and return a copy. The aggravates me greatly and this research (like much of the social science research) has been shown to be unreproducible [2]. [1] https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1209746109#:~:text=These%20results%20suggest%20that%20the,having%20no%20signature%20at%20all https://www.pnas.org/doi/10.1073/pnas.1209746109#:~:text=The.... [2]. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7132248/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC7132248/

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Gud 3y ago

Having gas guzzling cars infesting every street is not how I imagined the future. It reminds me more of Idiocracy than Star Trek. There are inspiring examples around the globe: my favourite systems are in Switzerland, where the trains are on time and frequent, and Luxembourg, where public transport is… publicly funded(and modern). Additionally, it seems to me a personal 1-5 tonne vehicle is a bit excessive and a huge waste of real estate.