3 ms·

A lot of people aren't factoring in that truckers can work 60 hours a week and are exempted from overtime pay and a lot of companies paying the big bucks in tru

by sct202 3y ago

A lot of people aren't factoring in that truckers can work 60 hours a week and are exempted from overtime pay and a lot of companies paying the big bucks in trucking are paying that much because they are maximizing the hours to minimize driver count (health insurance, benefits costs don't scale by hour).

pavlov 3y ago
Another example of how the American healthcare system is working against society’s best interests. You don’t want all truck drivers putting in the maximum hours humanly possible. It’s a safety hazard. But having to pay for health insurance makes corporations try to optimize for this at the expense of human lives.
- nonethewiser 3y ago
  > You don’t want all truck drivers putting in the maximum hours humanly possible. It’s a safety hazard. But having to pay for health insurance makes corporations try to optimize for this at the expense of human lives. ... what? First, I don't understand how paying for health insurance means they are trying to get the most hours out of their employees. I guess you could say thats somewhat true for literally every overhead cost including social security payroll taxes, training, heating buildings, etc. At best, it seems a little true in a very indirect way so why the laser focus on health insurance? Second, it its truly a safety hazard then it disincentivizes employers from doing it.
  - EForEndeavour 3y ago
    > First, I don't understand how paying for health insurance means they are trying to get the most hours out of their employees I'm not OP, but my take: the health insurance cost of hiring a driver is fixed, regardless of how many hours per week they drive. Therefore, the more hours they drive, the more the employer's "bang for their buck". > Second, it its truly a safety hazard then it disincentivizes employers from doing it. Health and safety regulations are written in blood, and exist precisely because employers need to be forced by law to maintain safe working conditions for their employees.
    - scholarofgolb 3y ago
      > employers need to be forced by law to maintain safe working conditions for their employees. Probably less true in trucking, where the leading cause of worker injury is road accidents. If, say, a roofer falls off a roof, the only damage is to the worker, but if a trucker crashes badly enough to get injured, the truck and cargo are likely damaged as well. Truckers and their employees should be more naturally aligned on safety issues.
      - sarchertech 3y ago
        For employers who are big enough maybe. A big percentage of freight though is handled by small employers and owner operators. If a particular unsafe practice produces an extra $1 million dollar accident every 200k hours of driving time, a small one man operation isn’t likely to see that happen over the course of a career. And even if they do, they may not have enough data to notice the correlation. A company with 1000 drivers will likely deal with it once per month.
        mcguire 3y ago
        But keep in mind, even the least-safe driver will get 99% of the loads to their destination. Dealing with accidents is a cost-of-doing-business issue for large companies.
      - mcguire 3y ago
        This is one of those situations where a theory reasoned from first principles fails to match reality. Back in the 20th C., drivers frequently took amphetamines in order to spend more time driving. Forged log books are a significant incentive for the development of electronic logs. I've seen many stories of drivers told to break hours-of-service regulations by dispatchers. And the hours of service regs are insane (https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hours-service/summary-hours-service-regulations https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hours-service/summary-... - keep in mind "on duty" != "driving" but waiting for loads and such, which the driver is not paid for) largely to maximize the number of hours driven.
  - IntelMiner 3y ago
    > Second, it its truly a safety hazard then it disincentivizes employers from doing it. When have employers ever cared about safety except when mandated by law? These things were all legally codified because people got hurt or died, not because companies wanted to be "nice"
- idlewords 3y ago
  Truck drivers don't put in the maximum hours possible; their maximum allowed driving time is heavily regulated by law and increasingly enforced by remote monitoring.
  - pkulak 3y ago
    Maximum hours possible is the maximum allowed driving time.
    - idlewords 3y ago
      I understood it to mean maximum hours physically possible
  - MisterTea 3y ago
    The ELD (electronic logging device) reports this data to the trucking company. It is up to them to enforce driving time. However, law enforcement can request these logs during a stop or inspection and the ELD must display this on screen or a print out. https://eld.fmcsa.dot.gov/ https://eld.fmcsa.dot.gov/
    - missedthecue 3y ago
      It's pretty hard to cheat. Much to the irritation of truckers.
      - KennyBlanken 3y ago
        The opposite could not be further from the truth. Trucker forums are full of ways to cheat the devices like simply pulling a fuse or replacing it with one that's been burned out, and police can't / won't check electronic logbooks because it's too much of a hassle for them. The companies installing the electronic logbook devices are the same people who have incentive to cheat the system. So do you think anyone notices, complains, or gets disciplined when "the fuse keeps burning"?
        3y ago
m463 3y ago
On the other hand, there is a maximum number of hours a driver can drive by law, and it has to be logged. I think it is 11 hours per day, with a minimum rest time of 10 consecutive hours.

by sct202 3y ago

pavlov 3y ago

Another example of how the American healthcare system is working against society’s best interests. You don’t want all truck drivers putting in the maximum hours humanly possible. It’s a safety hazard. But having to pay for health insurance makes corporations try to optimize for this at the expense of human lives.

nonethewiser 3y ago
> You don’t want all truck drivers putting in the maximum hours humanly possible. It’s a safety hazard. But having to pay for health insurance makes corporations try to optimize for this at the expense of human lives. ... what? First, I don't understand how paying for health insurance means they are trying to get the most hours out of their employees. I guess you could say thats somewhat true for literally every overhead cost including social security payroll taxes, training, heating buildings, etc. At best, it seems a little true in a very indirect way so why the laser focus on health insurance? Second, it its truly a safety hazard then it disincentivizes employers from doing it.
- EForEndeavour 3y ago
  > First, I don't understand how paying for health insurance means they are trying to get the most hours out of their employees I'm not OP, but my take: the health insurance cost of hiring a driver is fixed, regardless of how many hours per week they drive. Therefore, the more hours they drive, the more the employer's "bang for their buck". > Second, it its truly a safety hazard then it disincentivizes employers from doing it. Health and safety regulations are written in blood, and exist precisely because employers need to be forced by law to maintain safe working conditions for their employees.
  - scholarofgolb 3y ago
    > employers need to be forced by law to maintain safe working conditions for their employees. Probably less true in trucking, where the leading cause of worker injury is road accidents. If, say, a roofer falls off a roof, the only damage is to the worker, but if a trucker crashes badly enough to get injured, the truck and cargo are likely damaged as well. Truckers and their employees should be more naturally aligned on safety issues.
    - sarchertech 3y ago
      For employers who are big enough maybe. A big percentage of freight though is handled by small employers and owner operators. If a particular unsafe practice produces an extra $1 million dollar accident every 200k hours of driving time, a small one man operation isn’t likely to see that happen over the course of a career. And even if they do, they may not have enough data to notice the correlation. A company with 1000 drivers will likely deal with it once per month.
      - mcguire 3y ago
        But keep in mind, even the least-safe driver will get 99% of the loads to their destination. Dealing with accidents is a cost-of-doing-business issue for large companies.
    - mcguire 3y ago
      This is one of those situations where a theory reasoned from first principles fails to match reality. Back in the 20th C., drivers frequently took amphetamines in order to spend more time driving. Forged log books are a significant incentive for the development of electronic logs. I've seen many stories of drivers told to break hours-of-service regulations by dispatchers. And the hours of service regs are insane (https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hours-service/summary-hours-service-regulations https://www.fmcsa.dot.gov/regulations/hours-service/summary-... - keep in mind "on duty" != "driving" but waiting for loads and such, which the driver is not paid for) largely to maximize the number of hours driven.
- IntelMiner 3y ago
  > Second, it its truly a safety hazard then it disincentivizes employers from doing it. When have employers ever cared about safety except when mandated by law? These things were all legally codified because people got hurt or died, not because companies wanted to be "nice"
idlewords 3y ago
Truck drivers don't put in the maximum hours possible; their maximum allowed driving time is heavily regulated by law and increasingly enforced by remote monitoring.
- pkulak 3y ago
  Maximum hours possible is the maximum allowed driving time.
  - idlewords 3y ago
    I understood it to mean maximum hours physically possible
- MisterTea 3y ago
  The ELD (electronic logging device) reports this data to the trucking company. It is up to them to enforce driving time. However, law enforcement can request these logs during a stop or inspection and the ELD must display this on screen or a print out. https://eld.fmcsa.dot.gov/ https://eld.fmcsa.dot.gov/
  - missedthecue 3y ago
    It's pretty hard to cheat. Much to the irritation of truckers.
    - KennyBlanken 3y ago
      The opposite could not be further from the truth. Trucker forums are full of ways to cheat the devices like simply pulling a fuse or replacing it with one that's been burned out, and police can't / won't check electronic logbooks because it's too much of a hassle for them. The companies installing the electronic logbook devices are the same people who have incentive to cheat the system. So do you think anyone notices, complains, or gets disciplined when "the fuse keeps burning"?
      - 3y ago

m463 3y ago

On the other hand, there is a maximum number of hours a driver can drive by law, and it has to be logged. I think it is 11 hours per day, with a minimum rest time of 10 consecutive hours.