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You neglect to mention that they are unfinished on purpose. In reality these "homes" are nothing more than a concrete box for legal/tax reasons. These are sec

by ratg13 3y ago

You neglect to mention that they are unfinished on purpose. In reality these "homes" are nothing more than a concrete box for legal/tax reasons. These are second or third "homes" for people that were purchased as a poor investment. The investors should eat the losses.

seanmcdirmid 3y ago
Many of them aren't second homes. The ones in the ghost cities sure, but Evergrande has (had?) more legit projects that were designed as actual housing. In any case, given that the mainland stock market is pretty much known as a sham, real estate has been the only investment option for much of the middle class. Investors "eating" their losses basically means huge widespread social upheaval in China. Imagine everyone being equivalent to their 401k going belly up, that wouldn't be pretty.
- greenhexagon 3y ago
  There is much about China that I don't understand, but I'm curious about the ownership in the "ghost cities". Given the ability of the CCP to significantly control major industries and movement of people, is it not possible that someone might buy an apartment in a "ghost city" while living in a rural area or renting in another city, expecting that people and jobs would flow to the city once it was completed? Basically I don't really understand all the details, nuance and different corporate and governmental players involved in the "ghost city" phenomenon, but I'd almost expect that the government could make a "ghost city" into a "real city" in no time, by shutting down factories in one city and opening them there, or by changing internal migration restrictions.
  - s1artibartfast 3y ago
    That is certainly the less cynical take. Few real people buy homes knowing with certainty they would remain empty. People speculated on new development, future growth, and induced demand. For some reason, people online like to make them martyrs or idiots. lots of schadenfreude. The reality is a lot more mundane. They were just a risky investment bubble that popped.
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    The Chinese government isn’t as powerful as you think it is, nor as centralized. All of these ghost cities (more like ghost districts) are local government driven, so the central government doesn’t care much to fill them. The local governments can push state activity there, like as happened in Ordos (city) and kangbashi (ghost district of city), but they can’t really control the rest of the economic activity needed to make it a thriving place. In Ordos’s case, the downfall of coal is going to depress the city no matter what, the central government won’t bother to save them.
  - gruez 3y ago
    >Given the ability of the CCP to significantly control major industries and movement of people, is it not possible that someone might buy an apartment in a "ghost city" while living in a rural area or renting in another city, expecting that people and jobs would flow to the city once it was completed? Seems like it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupied_developments_in_China#2018_onwards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupied_developments_in... >Many developments initially criticized as ghost cities did materialize into economically vibrant areas when given enough time to develop, such as Pudong, Zhujiang New Town, Zhengdong New Area, Tianducheng and malls such as the Golden Resources Mall and South China Mall.[15] While many developments failed to live up to initial lofty promises, most of them eventually became occupied when given enough time.[6][16] >Reporting in 2018, Shepard noted that "Today, China’s so-called ghost cities that were so prevalently showcased in 2013 and 2014 are no longer global intrigues. They have filled up to the point of being functioning, normal cities".[17] >Writing in 2023, academic and former UK diplomat Kerry Brown described the idea of Chinese ghost cities as a bandwagon popular in the 2010s which was shown to be a myth.[18]: 151-152
    - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
      Kangbashi is never filling up like they planned, simply because coal is no longer booming like it once was. You can only do so much when the trend you were hoping for doesn’t pan out. It’s a district designed for a few million holding up at 50k or so. Tianjin will always have a few ghost districts and skyscrapers. They eventually fill up after a decade or two or are razed for something else. It was like that when I first visited China in 1999 as well.
    - mensetmanusman 3y ago
      They will be ghost cities in 2100.
ffgjgf1 3y ago
Allow banks to give out mortgages in such cases should be illegal too.

by ratg13 3y ago

seanmcdirmid 3y ago

Many of them aren't second homes. The ones in the ghost cities sure, but Evergrande has (had?) more legit projects that were designed as actual housing. In any case, given that the mainland stock market is pretty much known as a sham, real estate has been the only investment option for much of the middle class. Investors "eating" their losses basically means huge widespread social upheaval in China. Imagine everyone being equivalent to their 401k going belly up, that wouldn't be pretty.

greenhexagon 3y ago
There is much about China that I don't understand, but I'm curious about the ownership in the "ghost cities". Given the ability of the CCP to significantly control major industries and movement of people, is it not possible that someone might buy an apartment in a "ghost city" while living in a rural area or renting in another city, expecting that people and jobs would flow to the city once it was completed? Basically I don't really understand all the details, nuance and different corporate and governmental players involved in the "ghost city" phenomenon, but I'd almost expect that the government could make a "ghost city" into a "real city" in no time, by shutting down factories in one city and opening them there, or by changing internal migration restrictions.
- s1artibartfast 3y ago
  That is certainly the less cynical take. Few real people buy homes knowing with certainty they would remain empty. People speculated on new development, future growth, and induced demand. For some reason, people online like to make them martyrs or idiots. lots of schadenfreude. The reality is a lot more mundane. They were just a risky investment bubble that popped.
- seanmcdirmid 3y ago
  The Chinese government isn’t as powerful as you think it is, nor as centralized. All of these ghost cities (more like ghost districts) are local government driven, so the central government doesn’t care much to fill them. The local governments can push state activity there, like as happened in Ordos (city) and kangbashi (ghost district of city), but they can’t really control the rest of the economic activity needed to make it a thriving place. In Ordos’s case, the downfall of coal is going to depress the city no matter what, the central government won’t bother to save them.
- gruez 3y ago
  >Given the ability of the CCP to significantly control major industries and movement of people, is it not possible that someone might buy an apartment in a "ghost city" while living in a rural area or renting in another city, expecting that people and jobs would flow to the city once it was completed? Seems like it? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupied_developments_in_China#2018_onwards https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Under-occupied_developments_in... >Many developments initially criticized as ghost cities did materialize into economically vibrant areas when given enough time to develop, such as Pudong, Zhujiang New Town, Zhengdong New Area, Tianducheng and malls such as the Golden Resources Mall and South China Mall.[15] While many developments failed to live up to initial lofty promises, most of them eventually became occupied when given enough time.[6][16] >Reporting in 2018, Shepard noted that "Today, China’s so-called ghost cities that were so prevalently showcased in 2013 and 2014 are no longer global intrigues. They have filled up to the point of being functioning, normal cities".[17] >Writing in 2023, academic and former UK diplomat Kerry Brown described the idea of Chinese ghost cities as a bandwagon popular in the 2010s which was shown to be a myth.[18]: 151-152
  - seanmcdirmid 3y ago
    Kangbashi is never filling up like they planned, simply because coal is no longer booming like it once was. You can only do so much when the trend you were hoping for doesn’t pan out. It’s a district designed for a few million holding up at 50k or so. Tianjin will always have a few ghost districts and skyscrapers. They eventually fill up after a decade or two or are razed for something else. It was like that when I first visited China in 1999 as well.
  - mensetmanusman 3y ago
    They will be ghost cities in 2100.

ffgjgf1 3y ago

Allow banks to give out mortgages in such cases should be illegal too.